Are we there yet?

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by CalicoCat, Jan 12, 2011.

  1. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    Dave->I figured it is too hard to do over the web especially when I am not the best at using the proper terms. The link is wonderful. I will go to Staples and see if I can pick up a tool to measure the angle. What is the name of that tool? I believe I can pretty much make the measurements on my own while on the bike. When I make the measurements I need to be in the drops or should I take the measuements when in the drops and when not?

    In my case cause I tilted the seat slightly back when I slide up and ride on the rivet I am higher than when I am move back on the seat. I actually find myself putting out alot more power with more comfort when sliding up even though I am higher but it is a bit less comfortable on the nether regions.

    If does not work out maybe I should use my bday gift and get a better fitting by a specialist! LOL.

    -js
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    102 mile route with friends today with near triple digit heat on the return, but I had an exceptional day.​
    Some zero watt action on a conservative descent. About the only time and miles of the day I was not putting torque on the pedals.​

     
  3. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    The tool to make direct joint angle measurements is called a Goniometer, it's basically a protractor with extended arms that you line up with various limbs or the torso. I doubt you'll be able to make decent measurements of yourself, that would be difficult. You're not likely to find one at staples, but they're cheap and readily available on line or at medical supply shops, they look like this: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=goniometer&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16107155426981305259&sa=X&ei=6qArTqPkC5HAsAOx49DeCg&ved=0CDMQ8wIwAQ
    Though the really nice ones have long extendable metal arms for measuring longer spans which is helpful for measuring hip angles but again I doubt you could make that measurement on yourself.

    Personally I shoot video from the side with the camera leveled and square to the bike and on a tripod about three feet high. The bike should be on a trainer and with blocks below the front tire to keep the bike level with respect to the ground. I shoot video instead of stills because folks tend to shift around a bit under load so you want to be riding at representative riding power not posing or spinning air. Extract frames of interest (bottom of pedal stroke, as in leg fully extended which means closer to 5 oclock, not 6 oclock position, top of pedal stroke for minimum knee angles, on the hoods, in the drops, etc.) and measure the angles in an image editing tool like Photoshop. It's easier to do than it is to explain but as you're in the film industry you can probably work it out or know someone who can help you work it out.

    BTW, even with your saddle tipped up a bit it's very likely that shifting forward costs you in saddle height. It's hard to explain without a diagram, but because of the seat to bottom bracket and pedal relationship moving a cm forward in the saddle on a nominal 55-56 cm frame effectively lowers the saddle height by roughly a cm. So unless you've got an awful lot of uptilt in your saddle you're still likely shortening the effective saddle to pedal distance at full extension by sliding forward and riding the rivet.

    Definitely make measurements in both the drops and the tops. That's really the point of my earlier post. A lot of folks fit a bike to the tops or brake hoods and don't really expect riders to spend much time in the drops outside of fast coasting descents. But if you really want to ride and sustain power for any length of time in the drops then you should fit well in the drops and the fit will be extra comfortable when riding up on the hoods or the tops as your hip angle will open up even further. So competitive cyclists should be fitted well for riding in the drops and then the fit should be double checked for the tops but that part is easy.


    Best idea of all...

    -Dave
     
  4. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Fancy spoke patterns are just that - fancy. They offer no advantage over the normal 2 or 3 cross wheels. PT hubs can be built into anything and most manufacturers including zipp, hed and mavic have PT options. Zipp and HED even have diskwheels with them in. Jobst Brandts book "the bicycle wheel" is a great book on wheels and wheel building. You can pick a copy up for about $20 new - which is chump change for the knowledge within when you can go into a store informed. Don't worry too much about scooting forward in the saddle. When you move the bars down you also move them forward slightlyand at the end of the day when you're making changes like this you're looking for three things. 1. you can ride in a required degree of comfort. 2. You can at least keep the power output that you could before the change and 3. You go faster. If 3. Isn't met then you better be riding more comfortably otherwise it's not worth it. If you're racing then it's about optimizing speed with acceptable comfort, if you're not racing then you might ride a position that's a little less radical but not far off as efficient. If youre going faster for the same effort but you're sliding forward to the nose of the saddle and it's making The Wedding Tackle feel numb then tilt the saddle up a fraction. If you have a seatpost that has two adjusting bolts, like the Thomson stems then just loosen the front one turn and tighten the back one turn and go for a hard ride. If you do that twice and the nose is starting to get significantly higher then it's time for a shorter stem. Don't make judgement calls on saddle position following minor tweaks until a good hard long effort unless you've reached a point that your body doesn't like and you experience pain.
     
  5. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    The reason I jumped on a new wheel build was that wheelbuilder has a sale on the SL+ hub until July 30th and that was the shiney bait in the water that I could not resist. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    I have been thinking about an upgrade to ANT+ for over a year, but could not really justify the jump. I had been looking at different wheel builders and I found that the folks at wheelbuilder.com seemed to be the most responsive when I had a question from either a return of a phone call or an email. For a brief moment just before the order I considered jumping in deeper with a Enve or Zipp 404 rim, but came to my senses that I really just need a solid "bomb proof" training wheel so I kept to what I know works for me.

    My current PT wheel with the Kinlin rim and CXray spokes have been really solid. I have never even needed to have the wheel trued. I am kind of kicking myself in the butt for not staying with the CXray spokes, but every builder I talked to suggested I go with the heavier DT Competition spokes if I wanted a "bomb proof" wheel so I did.

    I cannot tell you the times I have seen people out in our group with Mavic Ksyrium SL's break a spoke and they cannot continue to ride. It would be 10 out of 10. It was just a couple weeks ago my friend popped a spoke as he was just behind me and I knew as soon as I heard it what it was. Fortunately we were only 4 miles from the end of the ride and he was able to continue really slowly after the brake was removed. Yet that is the most common wheel I see among my group members. I know all wheels are not like that, but for a training wheel I think I will stick to traditional spoke lacing with a higher count just because I a bit skittish about being stuck in the middle of nowhere. I have seen only once a spoke break on a wheel with traditional lacing and the guy just twisted the broken spoke around another and keep riding. The wheel was just slightly out of true as if it almost made no difference at all.

    If I were to get a wheel for racing I would go with whatever the wheel builder suggested for my weight. As I talk to some of these guys on the phone many of them race so I appreciate their advice.

    Swampy, I will get back with you later after I ride on the wheel for a while, but I expect it will be as solid as the one I have now. Plus those guys at wheelbuilder can do a complete PT service and after my tremendous headache of dealing with Saris it will be nice to send it back to someone different if necessary. The rep at that company says he gets that comment a lot and has also experienced the headache with the Saris customer service.
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Thanks Dave for some good insight last week regarding training structure. Yesterday was a refreshing day and good for the esteem. I typically go to my Saturday group ride worn out from the "structured" weekday training and do good to hang on. I still like putting my emphasis on the planned weekday training, but things this past week kind of shook up that structure and while I still had some solid training sessions my TSS was a bit lower heading into yesterday's ride. Because of this I went with a desire of a couple of guys desire to do a 102 mile route. Oddly, out of five that went the two that wanted this ride struggled the most, but we all have bad days. The heat was very intense so just about anyone could have struggled.

    There is nothing spectacular about my data from the ride, but going with less fatigued legs was an amazing experience. The data is not impressive because I pulled back the intensity to ride at a lower pace of two guys that were struggling with cramps. One of the guys is someone I look to because he is always so strong, but yesterday for whatever reason he started cramping late in the ride. After he said, "you go ahead and try to catch the others" I finally got the drift that I was like an annoying gnat buzzing around his bike. He was struggling and I was cruising and talking to him a lot trying to encourage him, but I think I was so fresh feeling that it was more annoying. I took off and from mile 90 to 102 I was still able to hold some good intensity. I have never been able to hold that type of wattage so late in a long ride. It really felt encouraging.

    I don't want to be the flashy guy in the group, but just have the sustainable power to tap into when the moments come along.

    I will be on a mini break this coming week for my anniversary, but then I hope back to the structured work because it works.
    Nice to test it out now and then in a real road experience.
     
  7. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    dave/swampy->My wife had told me yesterday I needed protractor and I remember with one of my earlier fitting that it had to have a swing arm. I actually found a really cheap one at staples but not made for this usage and the original fitting I got was with the tool your linked to.

    I did go into the office again as I wanted to see if I could make it work with the new tool but it was a bust as you predicted. I just need to bite the bullet and get my friend to come in and do another fitting which will work with in the drops and not in the drops. I was never really big on riding in the drops but I really want to make this work for speed reasons. I believe the reason I am doing well in CP is cause of the loss in weight and the more aero position I developed through trial and error in the drops. I imagine in the drops I may be able to really get a bit more speed out of my power zones. Also if one day I really want to go hardcore triatholon I would be a bit more ready.

    swampy->I will call wheelbuilder and see if they can make my ritchey aero wheel work with a new PT hub. If they can I may do it sooner than later.

    With my current experiments I find riding in the drops to really generate the watts atleast on the CT. Better said it feels like less effort to generate the same watts compared to other positions on the bike. My cadence increases naturally as the effort needed for the same watts seems to go down. Even today I rode for 2 hours as still over 100 degress out there and got in a 2 x 20 in the 240 range.

    Riding on the rivet does put quite a bit of pressure on the privates but that is not the issue it is more how sore it makes my back especially the shoulder blades but I do not have the right setup. Once I get the right setup I will see if feasible to ride in this position for a longer period of time. Otherwise I go for the most comfortable aero position on the hoods which is not doing bad for me right now.

    felt->Sounds like you are having some really nice longer rides. I think it goes to what Dave says you will see improvement in what you train. I have not really done any 3 or more hour rides on a regular basis cause in the past did not seem to give me the benefit I was looking for. You wanted to do well with the folks in your group but I really wanted to keep up with the folks in CP. I find my new regimen doing that with no ride really being longer than 2 1/2 hours. I believe if we were riding together on your 100 mile rides you would out last me pretty well. A good part would be due to that long a ride on the LB would not be fun but I have not been working on that kind of endurance. Well done.

    My PT hub has been on a Mavic wheel for as long as I have had it and never had an issue. NYC roads are not easy on the wheels, trust me. Maybe I just got lucky but she has never let me down and I even used it off-road when I was doing CX with knobby tires.

    Thanks for the PM and I will give them a call to see if they can make the Ritchey aero wheel work. I really do not want to buy another set of aero wheels now and would probably put the money into the rollers and the camera once I do the next film shoot that can use it.

    -js
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    With you approaching a 260 FT you could hang with me regardless of miles. You might somehow blow it on your first ride from not pacing yourself, but if you have a 250 FT and you keep your watts down around 180 to 200 and even lower if you count drafting and coasting downhill you would do fine if not drop me. So I believe the goal for both of us is the same and to improve FT means we could both be considerably better in both sprint type routes or long distance.

    I often hear some people say use your "all day pace" and being that these are guys and gals that do not train with the power meter principles I am not sure if that would equate something less than or equal to 75% of FT. On the ride yesterday I had a 0.73 IF and felt great at or near the end and had enough in the tank that I could have done a really nice sprint at the end if needed.

    I bet you have the Mavic Open Pro rim, which was an still is a popular rim choice for what many called a "bomb proof" training wheel. I probably would last a lifetime barring a crash or a bomb. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  9. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I guess you must be right. You are the man.
     
  10. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    felt->Took a look today and you are correct, Mavic Open Pro and man it is a tank. Today I finally got sick of the noise on the back brakes. I went to a shop and replaced the pads. I just could not get those brakes to work. Tomorrow my friend Zoli is coming for the fitting. I did a 4 x 10 @ 250 with 5 minute breaks. It was killer. My hip is a bit sore as I made all the changes to the position and forgot to move the saddle back to where it was. Oh well, you live, you learn.

    Short week as I head to Baltimore on Thursday so want to make tomorrow count, my TSS is 90 right now so got to figure out a way to make it stay there. I can bring the bike to Baltimore. Wonder if anywhere near the waterfront you can do some good riding.

    -js
     
  11. CwU253

    CwU253 New Member

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    I did a nice and easy 60 minute ride (20.5 miles) on the indoor stationary bike.
     
  12. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    all->As I was training today a recurring thought comes into my mind and what to know opinions. In my case 245 FTP and wanting to hit the 250 mark. I have been doing my training of 2 x 20 >90% of ftp or 3 x 20 >80% of ftp depending if I want to get more time in the saddle. There are days though when I am doing my 2 x 20 and feel I could do a 245 but than I think.

    Is it worth it as I will just beat myself up more for something I already accomplished meaning I think I should do a 2 x 20 @ 250 if I really have the mustard that day or should I stick with a 2 x 20 @ 230 so I can come back the next day a bit more fresh.

    I run into a similar issue when I want to do a full on hour as I feel I could do a 240-245 but feel is it worth it to kill myself for something I already did or should I shoot for a 225-230 to have a better workout the next day.

    This was probably answered somewhere else but I never had the time to read every page of the SOT thread.

    ty all for reading.

    -js
     
  13. teebone

    teebone New Member

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    My 2¢ is this......try a compromise. 1x20 @ 240 and 1x20 @ 250. Typically I like to target the 2nd 20" effort to be the higher because the 1st one serves as a good warmup. My biggest gains in FTP have come from this strategy (one lower then one higher L4 interval). Over the course of the past few seasons I have experimented with varying degrees of 2x20, 2x30, 1x60 combos and have found this to be my best longer term gain strategy. YMMV....but it is worth a shot to experiment with wattages and find out what works best for you. Also, try not to worry too much about the cost of today's workout on tomorrow. You might find that tomorrow's workout goes much better than you anticipate it would based on how you feel. Some of my best L4 efforts have popped up when I have felt the worst.

    Good luck!
     
  14. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    tb->I am kind of the same way in that my first interval is always a "test" interval. I can usually tell in the first 10 minutes of that interval if I set it too low or too high. I can be off at times on the too low but never on the too high. I than may re-adjust the 2nd 10 minutes of that interval or the next interval.

    I guess is more if you can do your FTP in a 2 x 20 but you know it would be hard should you? Or would you get more benefit from taking it down a bit? As I writing this I think maybe I am again trying too hard to hit a new high all the time? But I am really not, I just want to know if better to kill yourself a bit more or a bit less.

    On a different note my friend came in and did the fitting. Boy that was an eye opener. He had done previous ones with me and he uses the drop line and galinometer (sp?) but he was like what happen. He had done my earlier fitting and told me that this is just way off on the seat height. He said your knees and hip flexors should be killing you. It was about half inch off seat height and than he moved the seat a bit more back and flattened it. I explained about the seat tilt but he is worried about damage to the privates long term. It does feel a bit more comfortable even in the drops. He said you will move up a bit on the seat in the drops initially but you should keep in mind you are moving up and than adjust back as you feel more comfortable in the drops.

    He did not lower the handlebar as he said this is a CX bike so you can not get as low as a road bike anyway cause of the bigger clearance for the tires inherent in the frame. But great for your recovery and just keep lowering the bars as you feel more comfortable in the drops. That should happen as you ride more in the drops. He said I am no longer hunching but bending at the hips to reach the bars which is a great sign. He than moved the brake hoods up as he said this will make riding on the hoods a bit more comfortable as opposed to raising the handlebars. He took my angle in the drops and it read 30 degrees which he feels is very good. As for seat height he said remember the number 69.5. From the middle of the nut holding the crank up to the middle of the seat should be between 69.5 to 70 cm. He says give it 3-4 weeks and let me know how it goes. If any issues we can adjust a bit more here or there but right now it should be fine for drops and hood riding.

    He says he understands why I love this bike over the Cervelo. It may be cheaper but better design for you. Also he says some people like the stiffness of the ALU frame as it responds better. Also he prefers steel cranks himself as he has seen many carbon cranks literally bend from a rider. He said you be surprised how easily they do bend as he was in the Cannondale factory and they had the cranks lined up pressing against each other and they were bending from the stress.

    Lets give it a shot...
    -js
     
  15. teebone

    teebone New Member

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    Typically I like to "clean the pipes" at 100 - 105% of FTP on my 2x20's every once in a while, though I do not make this a regular practice (maybe 1 out of 10 times). Theoretically, all of your SST and L4 should be incrementally improving your FTP, so what was 100% of FTP at point A will be more like 95-98% of FTP at point B. Sometimes A -> B can be relatively short, sometimes a few months. However, by hitting the high end of L4 every once in a while I have found that it helps to directly improve FTP, and (perhaps most importantly) gives me the confidence in being able to do it. There are times that I try it and cannot do it, but I chalk that up to the weather, fatigue, bad sleep, etc.

    As to your concern about killing it one day and sacrificing the next day or two, I think that is a matter of trying it and finding out if it works. Worst case, you are too fatigued to hit your targets the next day. Pack it in and rest up for the next workout. At least you will know that for you maybe your best bet is to plan a high end L4 day followed by a rest day. To my way of thinking, a little experimentation is worth the potential short term sacrifices if you can find the best mix of training intensities to accomplish your goal(s).

    I had a similar experience with fit. My LBS did the Specialized BG fit and got my bike dialed in. I loved it. After a few months of racing (with some decent results) I began to feel like I could hardly keep pace anymore. I was having to stand on the pedals and dance way more than I liked. I went back for a fit follow up and found that my seat post had slipped 2". After having it adjusted and carbon pasted, it is so much better. Fit definitely matters.

    T

    PS: great work on your FTP progression. Your hard work is obviously paying dividends. Keep it up.
     
  16. quenya

    quenya New Member

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    teebone, what you call cleaning the pipes I always call resetting RPE. Whenever I do the local monthly 10 mile TT I do a >100% FTP effort and for a week or two afterwards my threshold intervals feel easy. Well not easy but...
     
  17. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    Have a long drive and setup today in Baltimore for a convention but really wanted to give the new setup a shot. Initially it felt strange as it felt I was having to give a bit more effort for the same results. Also my right knee was sending me a pain signal every so often. This was during the first 30 minutes but after that it all started to fall into place. Today is Thursday, the last day for the three day cycle so I always ride a bit easier and with the Baltimore just a 1 x 20 @230. I did 5 minutes in the drops and 5 on the hoods. The first couple in the drops was not comfy but after I finished the 20 I decided to just do the 5 drops and hoods till I finished no matter the watts and by the end it was nice. First time off the bike with no soreness and the lower back felt very stretched out not tight at all. By tomorrow I will know if the knee pain was an issue. Right now feels fine.

    tb->I will try what you and qy are pointing at which is still with the 80-95% of ftp and every once in a while throw in the >100% and see how it feels. That has been my Tuesdays. I usually did a 4 x 10 and increase the length of the interval depending on how I feel it is going. Swampy suggested the give it a try method. Also my one day a week at CP where I pretty much just catch wheels and hold on give it my all, the NP gives me a good indication of where I am. It is usually not terrible off from my FTP.

    Thanks for the kind words, I owe alot to ko for introducing to that Doc and my PT guy as a year ago at this time I had a cane and walking more than a few city blocks would almost have me fall to the floor. If you were close enough to me, you could literally see my leg vibrate at times from the compressed nerve.

    My daughter started to call me Twitchy...lol

    -js
     
  18. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jsirabella .

    all->As I was training today a recurring thought comes into my mind and what to know opinions. In my case 245 FTP and wanting to hit the 250 mark. I have been doing my training of 2 x 20 >90% of ftp or 3 x 20 >80% of ftp depending if I want to get more time in the saddle. There are days though when I am doing my 2 x 20 and feel I could do a 245 but than I think.


    JS: A question and a suggestion:

    (1) Have you done a MAP test lately? The reason I ask is that the results might help determine whether you could use some L5 work or not.

    (2) Without any additional information I would suggest adding some long efforts at 90% FTP (SST) once per week. If your FTP is 245, then start with efforts at about 200-220w. Do one 30 min interval the first week, then one 45 min interval the second week, then 60, then 75, then 90, then 105 (for six weeks total). Also start each interval at around 200-210 and then slowly ramp up. Try to ramp up to 220 or so for the last 20 minutes (but do whatever feels good -- if you're on a bad day don't overdo it). At this point you probably think I'm crazy to ask you to do 01:45 at 90% without rest, but I am nearly certain that after six weeks you will be able to do it, and that at that point your FTP will have gone up. Edit: one more thing -- fill out the rest of the workout to 1:30-2:00 by doing some low L3, to make sure you still get enough time on the bike that day (especially the first few weeks).
     
  19. teebone

    teebone New Member

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    Q - I agree with that completely. By going over FTP slightly those following sub FTP efforts do feel easier in relative terms. As a rule of thumb, I won't bump up FTP until my next test says I should or the RPE reset makes it clear that 95% of my previous FTP ain't 95% anymore.

    Anecdotally, I never really understood that Cogganism "training zones are descriptive, not prescriptive" until I decided to stop staring at the cervo the entire 2x20 set. A - it was mind numbing. B - it actually limited my workouts. C - it was mind numbing. When not looking at it and going by RPE my AP values (trainer or flat terrain) were at or slightly above what I was targeting. By prescribing an exact power number to hit and doing my best to hit it I believe that I held back some FTP improvements.

    JS - all that to say maybe try picking a cadence to monitor and a pain level....er.....RPE intensity and just try pegging that. Ignore power and/or heart rate and see what happens. It may take a little time to get it right (at first I tended to let my body rest after a few minutes and had to pick it back up when I "snapped to").

    T
     
  20. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    lb-> No I never did a MAP recently. I actually forgot how to do it. I remember Dave once sent me a link on how to do it. I see lots more people looking at MAP than FTP lately. Has it become the new standard or just additional insight? If you give me a link maybe I can give it a shot.

    If I understand your plan it is basically over a six week period I would do 90 to 120 minute rides with the rides have one long interval? The long interval would be a ramp up from the 200 to 220 with the last 20 minutes being 220. I would do the usual 5 days a week of training with 2 rest days. The length of the interval would start at 30 minutes and each week we extend the intervalk by 15 minutes. The remaining time in the ride would be L3. Correct and by week 6 I should see the results? Just want to make sure I got it down.

    Honestly I like to have more ways to approach my training as it can be a become a bit of a rut and really begin to become boring and frustrating especially when you are not seeing results. May I ask how you came up with this plan?

    tb->Your description of the 2 x 20 sets are dead on. I have a tendency to look at timer to the point where no matter how loud the music is or what is on the tube I keep looking back at it and for some reason it never goes any faster no matter how hard I pedal. :(

    Adding in the catching on to wheels at CP day with no planning of watts or intervals has resulted like yourself into the highest IF rides of the week and many times higher than I expected watts for almost every timed interval. I only look down at the PT every once in a while if I feel the effort is too hard or too easy as I want to make sure I get the 5 loops in cause if I ever do a race at CP it will be 5 loops. Using the power zones as a guideline has worked well but I also think about how I feel at that time I look at the PT. In the end I want to make sure I do not die too early or at the end of the ride feel it was too easy.

    -js
     
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