Are we there yet?



Sh3rlock

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Jan 6, 2012
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

sherlock->Sounds like you have your plans set the off season well laid out. I find it interesting how people plan their time during the off season. I see more and more focus on areas outside cycling. If those areas do or do not help cycling I believe they are a worthy endeavor if just for general health. Is there a specific event or series of events you are training for?

Me I am in base mode right now, trying to get in atleast 15 hours on the bike broken into 5 days. I do not want to do those weekend long rides that really just add lots of time and miles. I am finding the 3 hour rides on the trainer to be killer!

Today the weather was so nice I did 3 hours on the trainer and than took the bike home. I was so dead by the end of the ride that I was crawling home.

-js

Thanks js! Yeah I really did think about the routines, speaking to a lot of people I know for advice and such. I've coupled this with a good diet too, lots of carbs, proteins and fruit/ veg , water etc.

I've a couple of sportives/ charity rides jotted in for this year. A few minor tours too like the coast to coast or even things like cycling to festivals (latitude).

Nothing racey or anything like that, I only started cycling last summer.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

sherlock->Sounds like you have your plans set the off season well laid out. I find it interesting how people plan their time during the off season. I see more and more focus on areas outside cycling. If those areas do or do not help cycling I believe they are a worthy endeavor if just for general health. Is there a specific event or series of events you are training for?

Me I am in base mode right now, trying to get in atleast 15 hours on the bike broken into 5 days. I do not want to do those weekend long rides that really just add lots of time and miles. I am finding the 3 hour rides on the trainer to be killer!

Today the weather was so nice I did 3 hours on the trainer and than took the bike home. I was so dead by the end of the ride that I was crawling home.

-js

And from what I am learning one does not need to do those long rides to achieve the goal. On another thread this discussion is going on with one idiot's boasting about former days and how it is absolutely necessary to do long rides. I don't think that is the case although I a do a longish ride if time allows on Saturday's. Actually a 3 hour trainer session is impressive and in your case I know it is impressive because you are holding power for the duration.

You have a family and a business to consider and the time with them is more precious. I can tell you that it is tough for me to balance in my house to be out on the road for 4 to 5 hours and I don't have kids. My wife is pretty supportive, but it wears on her at times. When it does it is more important that I take notice and make an adjustment. She is more important to me than cycling.

Physical limitations or comfort may limit you on distance, but your conditioning will allow you to do long events if you desired. So you can always keep that in mind.
For instance if you have a FT of 260 all you have to do is ride the long event at lower power. When I do century rides I use my power meter with the type of course (elevation gain) and use a power output at a lower level or whatever level (guesstimating) that I think for the duration of the course.

Sometimes this fails me like an event last summer that claimed to be flat. Looking at the course online the profile looked flat and my group all headed out of the gate at near threshold. We thought with drafting on a flat course we could hold this intensity for the duration of the 100 miles. Unbeknownst to us the course got really hilly the last half and then there was 15 miles of ~3% gradient back to the school. None of that showed up on the profile. Because we used up so much energy in the first 50 we began to fall apart in the last half. I finished without stopping, but it was not pretty. I had fitness cramps in the last 10 miles. Had we started at a lower power output we would have finished that century in 5 hours working in a team.

I did a 70 mile solo ride yesterday at a lower power output (mostly low L3 and some L2). I only do this because I just like to be out on Saturday and doing these longer rides keeps me used to dealing with time and focus. A 70 mile ride does not seem that long anymore and I want to keep it that way. But with your FT getter closer to 260 all you would have to do is ride at 200 for the duration and I probably could not hold on your wheel. I really believe this to be true.
 

jsirabella

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felt->Do not get me wrong, if you have the time and want to do 5 hour rides on a regular basis, be my guest. But like you state, 3 hour rides on the trainer are much tougher to me than most weekend rides I have done. Yesterday was after a rest day and what I try to do on that day is hour 1 = more L2/less L3, hour 2 = L3 and hour 3 = L3/SST. I always save the worst for the last hour to really see what I am made of but today will be total L2/L3 3 hour ride. I am having trouble keeping my eyes open right now. I really wanted to do outdoors but I went outdoors with bike and my face was about to freeze off! I would have not last more than 90 minutes before I would have head back to base. So here I am again back in the office, bike on trainer and ready for a lighter 3 hour journey. Lets see how the body feels along the ride. CTL is at 91 which in itself is not such a big deal but I have to admit 3 hours is now starting to feel shorter than it was when I first started. I am hoping this will carry over to when I up the ante and start doing harder 2 hour rides.

I have to check out this other thread, is that good old OG again?

BTW agreed on the wife point. She can drive me crazy angry sometimes but that is part of the deal.

sherlock->Most start out that way and eventually give the race world a try. In anycase I wish you luck in your quest. A well laid out plan makes it more fun.

-js
 

jsirabella

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Three hours over and I am noticing one thing about these rides, hour 1 always feels a bit like getting out of bed meaning just got to get into the groove before I really feel comfortable. Hour 2 always feels fairly normal but Hour 3 I am now starting to really open up. It actually feels that is when the engine really kicks in. I do not know why. The other things again I notice is that my legs really want to go high cadence so on Hour 3 I make a real effort to keep the cadence lower and grind a bit more. While I split up the hours I really want the avg over the 3 hours be where I hope, like yesterday was a 205 and today was like a 180.

Picked up some needed gear yesterday with a gator tire an a couple tubes. Tomorrow may get to shop to switch the campy cassette on one wheel to the newly built PT aero wheel. I am sore just typing this. Going to do some web browsing for a nice set of adjustable aero bars.

Than to fooling around with some After Effects..picked up a book this week and want to learn it.


-js
 

gman0482

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Aug 13, 2009
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Glad to see everyone still here and going strong. I took a little (not so little) time-out from cycling, due to various obstacles. Now I'm mounting my baby to my green KK machine and kickin my ass back into the right gears.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Don't feel too bad Gman - I just unearthed the bike from the usual pile of 21oz winter brews and a few hours on the bike today felt like hell on wheels. At least this year I didn't wait until March and think, oh crud, I've got a double century in 8 weeks... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif

At least I think I managed to keep the power in triple digits during the last 10 minutes. Went out thinking that I'd just do about an hour but the weather was too nice and suffice to say that two bottles of water and no food, with not much in the way of lunch lead to an 'interesting' last hour.

At least I know life (on the bike at least) will be good again in a few weeks. Off to see the physio next weekend. That hour on the table will make me pay for my sins of slouching at my office desk but it'll be worth it afterwards...
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Good to see gman are getting back in the groove and I figured swampy was still involved or near involvment. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

js, I wish I could squeeze in the 15 hour week. I barely got 10 hours this past week and that was with the 4 hour Saturday ride, but that if I can go 10 hours minimum with the quality of training I did this past week I believe my 2012 will be improved over previous years. My short time that I have available during the week day I am going for top of L4. It leaves me a bit exhausted for the weekend, but even those endurance miles are doable on fatigued legs.

The solo 70 on Saturday with L2/L3 felt pretty good, but comfort in the saddle was a little touchy at times and near the end. Pretty happy about it though for being January. Unfortunately I gained a little too much between Thanksgiving and Christmas so I really need to work on the watts/kg issue. I hope to ramp up that effort on that 70 mile route a little at a time to the point where I am doing mostly L3 and still be able to hit those good indoor efforts on the other days.

http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/01/brewery-to-cagle-this-aint-no-fooling.html
 

jsirabella

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@gman, glad to have you back and hope the obstacles do not come back. Every time I took off and came back that was always the most fun.

@swampy, I am sure you will be more than ready for the Death Ride (however it is called). For some reason every time I watch the episode of the Amergosa Opera House in Death Valley I think of it. Does it go through Death Valley?

Well today is an off day and I can use it. On the equipment side, got the PT aero-wheel just about ready to go and yesterday on ebay put a bid on a used set of med Syntace C2 clip on bars. Hope to win it. Read some good reviews of it.

-js
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .
@swampy, I am sure you will be more than ready for the Death Ride (however it is called). For some reason every time I watch the episode of the Amergosa Opera House in Death Valley I think of it. Does it go through Death Valley?

-js
Thankfully, the Death Ride doesn't pass through Death Valley. Death Valley is a few hundred miles south down Route 395. The Death Ride is based around Markleeville which is about 20 miles or so SE of Lake Tahoe. The big ride for me in that area mid-year is the Alta Alpina Challenge. ~75 miles further than the Death Ride, with the last 100 miles basically done on the same course but in reverse - ie all the hard climbs at the end.

Felt, you need to work on the w/kg? I'll swap ya. I gained close to 25lbs courtesy of Mammoth Brewing Co's "395" Ale - ironically named after the road I mentioned above. That rot set in at the end of Day 1 of the Everest Challenge (near Mammoth and 395) when the restuarant had it on "special". Probably not the best prep for Day 2 and some epic climbs. LOL. Talk about not waiting till the holiday season to let that rot set in. Thankfully, for me, I know that it's fairly easy to get rid of that but damn, it's a tasty brew... But it's all good fun :)
 

jsirabella

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swampy - Nice that you have your goals set as always. I am sure you will loose the beer gut by that time, do the ride and make a new beer gut again during the off season. If I remember you really pushed yourself quite hard to make last year happen.

For myself I was finally yesterday using the aero PT wheel with the joule. I am still trying to work through kinks but it seems to work?

The pairing worked fine on finding the PT but could not find cadence nor speed sensor. But when I rode it was giving me all the info. Also not sure how to zero it out as today it did not feel like right for the watts I was putting out. Too easy.

Real nice overall as getting myself, bike equipment and place organized.

-js
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

swampy - Nice that you have your goals set as always. I am sure you will loose the beer gut by that time, do the ride and make a new beer gut again during the off season. If I remember you really pushed yourself quite hard to make last year happen.

For myself I was finally yesterday using the aero PT wheel with the joule. I am still trying to work through kinks but it seems to work?

The pairing worked fine on finding the PT but could not find cadence nor speed sensor. But when I rode it was giving me all the info. Also not sure how to zero it out as today it did not feel like right for the watts I was putting out. Too easy.

Real nice overall as getting myself, bike equipment and place organized.

-js
I think the procedure for zeroing the newer PT's is different. I think I read somewhere that you have to be stopped and there be no pressure on the pedals when zeroing. RTFM :p

I'm not worried about "the gut" - I'll lose that in a couple of months. Last year I lost about 25lbs in 2.5 months - this year I have 6 months to get ready, so there's a distinct chance of getting close to my old race weight. If I do that then there might be a bit more incentive to really get my finger out and do something. The only thing that seems to throw a bit of a wrench in the works in the Alta Alpina Challenge. Every year it seemed that the intense cold up on the top of Ebbetts pass, which you climb twice summiting at about 130 and 140 miles, did my chest in and I'd have a fairly hard time breathing the rest of the event and have always suffered for it for a couple of weeks afterwards. The first year of the event it put me in urgent care and a 7 day course of steroids. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif Thankfully they've moved the event from its usual start of June slot to the last weekend of that month. It might not sound like much but it'll make a huge difference and the emphasis may shift from dealing with the cold to possibly having to deal with the heat. Sadly, probably no epic snow walls that are >10ft tall on either side of the road. That was surreal. 40+mph on the way down, freezing cold with no peripheral visibility and very little sound from anything other than my tires. Some interesting moments were had given that road isn't even wide enough to have a center marking line.

The wife came up with a good solution to the annual beer induced weight gain after a long period of weight loss - she's gonna trash my bigger clothes when I get skinny so I'll either have to at least keep at that weight or go out and buy new clothes - and she knows I hate doing that. LOL
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .


Back to training, these 3 hour rides are killer on a regular basis on the trainer but they are already getting easier. These 170-200TSS rides are making the CTL skyrocket. I want to get the 15 hours a week in so lets keep building this base. But if I am going to kill myself with all this training, I am going to pick an event this year!

-js
After finishing a 2 hour session on the e-Motion rollers this morning, I can say from my point of view, you are a Beast at training at level for 3 hours indoors.

I can easily cope with 4 to 7 hour rides outside, but 2 hours felt like an eternity. Like you said above the more you do it the easier it gets and I guess that includes coping with it mentally. At least my somewhat pathetic indoor effort summed up fairly well in WKO and kept the legs active.
 

jsirabella

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@felt, Two hours on rollers is no joke. I heard that rollers are harder to do than a trainer. You have to maintain more concentration with balance issues and a higher cadence I am told. The mental issue is tough but for me there are other variables that really make it difficult. Most are just issue of comfort.

1) SOT used to describe it as riding with the brakes on. That is not it so much as much as it is never being able to let the wheels just role for a minute or so. You really just have to keep the cadence.

2) The sweating!!! I sweat like I just took a shower and no matter how many towels I have it is never enough so by hour 2 I have went through my towels and the sweat is still pouring and you are just wiping your face off with a sweaty towel.

3) Can never get the temp right, I start I am cold and I finish I am too hot. When people come in my room after a workout, it feels like a sauna.

4) No matter how many times I get up, move around, the seat after 2 hours will start to not be as comfortable. Outdoors not as bad.

Today was all the above but got my 3 hours in but right now the joule is frustrating me as will not match the CT an not sure why, Think it is the zero out issue. Well in another hour my auction ends to buy these used TT bars. I think with the wheelset and the bars I will try and get ready for a TT event!! Make this my goal, maybe.

Long weekend and next week lots of shooting so lets get that CTL above 95, sitting at about 92 right now.

-js
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Yep, I think those items that you listed are probably what many of us the train seriously indoors deal with. Yesterday I hated those first few minutes with the fan blowing on me in a cool room. I was chilled but then, as you say, sweating buckets. I went through two 26 oz bottles in the two hours and then a lot of fluid following. I had discomfort through my glutes and hamstrings through the entire 2 hours. Not a bad pain, but as if the muscles were getting involved much more on the rollers than outside or on the KK trainer. I suppose that discomfort was an indication of muscular weakness in those areas that needs to be trained.

The one thing I am getting excited about is how much I have learned in the past few months by reading and application. Observing in WKO how these training sessions seem to becoming more effective.

How training consistently (almost every day) has that CTL going up at a better ramp rate than random big rides. I know you are seeing this with your training.

How to use higher intensity (top of L4) if I only have an hour available, but SST if I have more than an hour. Increase or decrease intensity based on time available that day.

How just enough TSS in one session to be effective and not impact the following days so that I miss those sessions.

......and much more, but I have so much more to learn.
 

jsirabella

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@felt, Good question about the TSS and how much is too much. Right now if I do three days in a row I see I do 170-200 per day, usually each day being a bit less than the last but sometimes day 2 can be more. By day 3 I am usually just sore all over and is pretty much more L2 and less L3. My game plan is that I will start to add more SST in the three hours like today in my 3 hours I added 2 x 20 of SST. I have to admit that today was the worst I ever felt. It killed me. On hour 3 I wanted to just do 200 watts straight through but had to stop twice. I was determined and finished the 3 hours as it made me feel better about myself even if I had to take the two couple minute breaks. My guess is that this is the bottom and next time I should not have to take these breaks.

I have to be honest if I only had an hour to ride as you posted I am not sure how to handle it. 2 seems to be a min requirement for a goo workout IMHO. For me I need about 30 minutes to get into the groove and that is why I like these 3 hour rides as it gives me plenty of time if I can use it or not. But I would have to say higher intensity than lower intensity would be the way to go if I were in that situation.

Well on happier notes I won a set of TT bars for $35 and I figure out the issue with the joule. Nothing wrong with the joule, it was the CT. I keep forgetting to make sure that the wires are really pushed in snug. The one from the control panel to the transformer really needs to be in snug or you think it was working but it is not. It has happen to me before. I did put the push on pressure up to 3 but once I pushed that wire in, both were reading the same numbers! Yeah!

-js

On a side note forgot to bring up the liquids, I have an assortment of about 6! 2-3 bottles of gartorade with one mixed with water and ice cubes in a mason jar, another mason jar with ice and a can of monster (love the stuff, know its is bad for me), an old quart milk bottle filled with water and a pepsi also if I feel the need for quick energy. I usually go through most of it by the end of the 3 hours but yet outdoors I get away with a couple water bottle..lol.
 

danfoz

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Apr 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .


After finishing a 2 hour session on the e-Motion rollers this morning, I can say from my point of view, you are a Beast at training at level for 3 hours indoors.
Felt, would you say the eMotion rollers increase your tolerance for indoor training over a regular trainer? I have heard a lot of good things but this would be a definite plus.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by danfoz .


Felt, would you say the eMotion rollers increase your tolerance for indoor training over a regular trainer? I have heard a lot of good things but this would be a definite plus.

Before I purchased them I too did a lot of reading and other than the cost everyone had great comments so I rolled the dice that they would help extend my training time indoors.
The answer to your question is absolutely they have really helped me bump up my training time.

I have improved by training on the fluid KK trainer in the aspect that my indoor power has come up closer to my outdoor power, but it seemed to only improve after using the eMotion rollers. I just about do not want to use the trainer again and have not used it in a couple of months. The two hours I did on Saturday, though tough, was way more tolerable than using the trainer. I expect this winter I will end up with a lot more indoor miles because they are more tolerable. I am already starting to see the cost to benefit payoff.

My power output on the eMotion rollers is closer to my outdoor power than the trainer. I feel like I am pushing L5 with the trainer and L4 on the rollers feels like L4. Also there is a lot of growing room for me on the rollers. My FT is still low, but I am on the lowest resistance setting on the rollers and about midway up on the cassette with a compact crank. I have done some short standing efforts hitting 300's on that same setting with a smaller cog so I can imagine that you could get in some good training without fear of outgrowing the resistance.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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I do want to add some clarity to the previous post that I made for those who might stumble into this thread and think my opinion is low on the KK trainer. I do see the Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer is a great indoor training option for those on a budget. It has worked well for me for the past number of years and I will still use it on the shorter intervals like 20 or 30 minute sessions. I like it because I can hammer those higher intensities and not have to worry about balancing like on the rollers.

From what I have read on the web from those who race or train at a higher level indoors it seems that the Computrainer gets the most praise and then the eMotion rollers with all the other gear coming in below those two. Of course my reading and research may be limited, but it seems that those two get great remarks for being effective.
 

jsirabella

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All I can say is "DO NOT CHANGE YOUR SEAT THINKING IT WILL HELP". My last seat was working great but thought I could do better. That did not work out well. But I did get the three hours in today with a TSS of 150 and hit my goal of 95 by today. Tomorrow the old seat goes back on and a much needed day off the bike!

Felt I wish I had the emotion rollers to mix it up. I am a sucker as I told my friend I wanted those rollers and he goes and buys me the cyclops version which I do not want to use.

-js
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

I have to be honest if I only had an hour to ride as you posted I am not sure how to handle it. 2 seems to be a min requirement for a goo workout IMHO. For me I need about 30 minutes to get into the groove and that is why I like these 3 hour rides as it gives me plenty of time if I can use it or not. But I would have to say higher intensity than lower intensity would be the way to go if I were in that situation.
There are ways and means to get a good work out in an hour but it's a bit like S&M - it has to be really painful to be any fun...

If you've been grinding away doing 2+ hour, high TSS rides for a few months then adding in shorter sessions with top end L4 and L5 efforts will bring good rewards. Adding L5 and some very short L6 efforts done in predefined x minutes on, y minutes rest format with the rest being significantly shorter than the effort also brings, after a few weeks, a big improvement in on the bike recovery after a hard effort. I also found that after doing these for a while that I'd have fewer bad patches in time trials.

Where I've spent the last couple of years just getting the hard miles in, mostly 2+ hours L3 and L4, there's going to be a fair amount of shorter interval work come May and June, just for the reasons of better recovery after short hard efforts in some of the long events. I might even have a crack at some of the local 10mile TT's

I kinda like training indoors but anything over 2 hours needs to be done outdoors. It used to be bad enough having one project car distracting me in the garage, where I'd constantly be thinking "hmmmm, how am I going to fix that..." but now I have two! DOH!
 

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