Are we there yet?



felt, swampy, I hear what you guys are saying about CTL but when you do not have the great performance numbers, need something else to fall back on. :(

I feel better today but still in no condition to ride and I can not miss work so here I am with comtrex keeping me in check for now. It happens every year and they never end fast. They just die on their own terms, these colds of mine.

You did make me think though as the guilt factor of not riding is a bit much but more of that is cause of the advance I made since my injury and never think being back here. The truth though is I need an event for all this cycling. Even if it just keeping up with the boy in CP. To just ride to ride more and only my FTP to keep me warm does not make much sense when you are putting in 15 hours a week. The "being healthy" thing is fine but I can do a lot less and be just as good in shape.

So the quest for the chosen event continues...

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .

felt, swampy, I hear what you guys are saying about CTL but when you do not have the great performance numbers, need something else to fall back on. :(

I feel better today but still in no condition to ride and I can not miss work so here I am with comtrex keeping me in check for now. It happens every year and they never end fast. They just die on their own terms, these colds of mine.

You did make me think though as the guilt factor of not riding is a bit much but more of that is cause of the advance I made since my injury and never think being back here. The truth though is I need an event for all this cycling. Even if it just keeping up with the boy in CP. To just ride to ride more and only my FTP to keep me warm does not make much sense when you are putting in 15 hours a week. The "being healthy" thing is fine but I can do a lot less and be just as good in shape.

So the quest for the chosen event continues...

-js
Great performance numbers - it all depends on what you compare your numbers too. If you compare to the Pros then we're all decidedly craptacular. If we compare to the average Joe in the street then we'll all look pretty good. Most of us aspire to ride better than we do and maybe we'll get there some day... maybe we won't - but if we don't try we'll end up sitting on the pot one day and in a moment of boredom think "I wish I would have..."

15 hours per week is a few hours more than I typically do. 15 hours is a lot of time. If you think you can do less and you honestly believe you can be in just as good shape then maybe it's time to rethink the training a little bit. Sometimes all it takes is a little tweaking like keeping some of the longish L3 rides and adding some L5 and substituting another session for something decidedly less endurance based.

Maybe I just look at things a little differently, or maybe in this case I'm just plain wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but I tend to think when increases in performance become small then it's pretty much time to move on to the next planned training phase or at a minimum take a look at why those increases plateaued. Yes, you need a good base and lots of L3 and L4 never hurt (ok, it hurts when you're doing enough of it - or when you do too much and genuinely over train) but there's always going to be a time where you need to ride faster for shorter intervals in order to ride faster at longer distances. Sometimes that shorter and faster is much shorter and, at first, not that much faster and hurts quite a bit but I believe at some point it just needs to be done.

As for the event, just think about cycling and what you like most about it. When you have that answer seek an event that offers that. It might be a metric century, it might be a midweek smash-fest around central park (aka evening crit). Take a long look at some of the larger cycling clubs websites that are in your area - there's probably a fair number of events that you didn't even think existed.

If keeping up with the faster lads in CP is a goal, you have a good base of L3/4 under the belt - time to hit the shorter efforts. If you're thinking about a crit - L5 and L6 is an must...

... and if you think that straying away from "endurance" training isn't for you, think of things this way. What is your L5 power now, will likely, after about 6 to 8 weeks of refocused training containing lots of L5, be somewhere within what will be L4 then. Not so much a paradigm shift in training, just a moving of the goal posts a little.
 
The following is not to stir up controversy since my goals are very unique compared to the majority on this forum, but below is the training load I have been following for a number of months. The weightlifting schedule has been the same for about 20 years and I have 30 years in lifting as a total. 10 years competing. I am not able to lift the former competitive weight with too many injuries and issues.

I am very pleased with my current training load. While some days I cannot hit the intended goals for the most part I have been able to hit my goals, which are very unique since I am a weightlifter that enjoys cycling training. Since I no longer compete in lifting and have no aspirations of competing in cycling I can play by my own rule book for training and recovery.

I feel like things are progressing despite my recreational status. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
Current CTL: 85
Watts/kg: 2.78 /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif (pretty heavy for my height, plus a low FTP)
Goal: to have good cross fitness.

[SIZE= 14px]Weightlifting[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Monday A.M. – Legs[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Tuesday A.M. – Chest[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Wednesday A.M. – Back[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Thursday A.M. – Shoulders[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Friday A.M. – Arms[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Saturday A.M. – off[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Sunday A.M. - off[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Cycling[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Monday P.M. – 2 x 30 rollers ( 1st 30 @ 0.95 IF, 2nd 30 @ 0.85 IF)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Tuesday P.M. – 2 x 30 rollers ( 1st 30 @ 0.95 IF, 2nd 30 @ 0.91 IF)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Wednesday P.M. – 1 x 60 rollers (@ 0.88 IF)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Thursday P.M. – 2 x 30 rollers ( 1st 30 @ 0.95 IF, 2nd 30 @ 0.91 IF)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Friday P.M. – off[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Saturday A.M. – outdoor 4 to 5 hour ride with time in L2 to L4, big blocks of L3 (2 x 60 if weather is bad)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 14px]Sunday A.M. – outdoor 2 x 60 (@ 0.88 IF for total)[/SIZE]
 
.....I suppose in summary of my previous post with the schedule being that I am finally getting to my "happy place" with understanding what I want to achieve and get into a training routine that I really like and could see maintaining for years (minus life interuptions that occur at times). So for the topic of the thread, "Are we there yet?", I believe I am there where I want to be for routine and I love routine. It is not a path to race or anything else. It is simply finding a set training routine that I enjoy on a daily basis. It is probably full of faults, but it suits me.

Now is the time to enjoy. Fortunately for me I enjoy training in the manner listed in my schedule above and from that I am improving. Crazy that doing top of L4 last night was enjoyable, but what a nice way to blow off some steam after a stressful workday or to get out for a 5 hour ride on Saturday.

I suppose I will continue to lurk and see how swampy does in the upcoming epic events and js if you jump into some events this year. Guys its been fun chatting with you. I hope you keep up the good work.
 
felt, that is once nice training load. How old are you? Even before my accident I could not do a double time schedule of morning and night workouts. Nice dude and your training load on the bike is building well.

swampy, Now that I have been playing this game long enough I am kind of starting to figure out what works for me. I have found that if you are going to do the trainer, L3 or SST is the best way to go. Longer rides of the > 2 hours with lots of L3 and some SST mixed in. For the L4 or higher which to me are the 10 min variety or lower are best done outdoors. I have found I get my best efforts and numbers for that type of training outdoors. This was always the plan for 2012.

I agree 100% based on my experience even if I could do 230 watts for 2 hours or 220 watts for 3 hours that unless I can keep up for those shorter intervals it will not be enough especially for the crits and hammerfests. Last year though I had probably my best year outdoors which I think came down to single focus on cycling and the loss of 20lbs. It was not due to better watts output as I had better watts output when I was a bit heavier.

March is here now and the races will start soon and the morning hammerfests will start. This bug has really put a big wrench in my training but I will not be deterred. I will get outdoors come end of this month and work on the other parts of the engine and see how I fare against the folks there. In addition I will show up at my old coaches rides again and see how I do. This is a big test as I used to suck at those sessions and is to me like smoking man was to SOT. If I can do well and see my numbers look pretty good than I will do a race. I really want TT to be my event but I rather see what I am good at and than pick what best suits me.

As for the bug, been hell. Everyday I think it is gone and it just hangs on. I have not rode for a week now and not sure riding or not makes a difference. Last night I really felt it was done and this morning feels like it is still around. Going to the doc Friday if I can not beat it. This one has been a real doozy.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .

felt, that is once nice training load. How old are you? Even before my accident I could not do a double time schedule of morning and night workouts. Nice dude and your training load on the bike is building well.

swampy, Now that I have been playing this game long enough I am kind of starting to figure out what works for me.

-js
Getting close to 49
The thing about lifting is that I have so many years of experience that I am really efficient with my training time. I am not that efficient with the cycling training, but I am getting to a routine that works with the dual load. I have a really good understanding of what my body can handle, recovery and especially nutrition. All of that helps juggle the two. Crossfit is all the rage in my area so I am sort of in that happy place. I go into my older years with pretty good strength and my cardio fitness continues to improve.

I think your statement above is what I am getting at. You not only find what is working for you, but hopefully enjoy it as well. It is not like I want to become close minded to more efficient means, but when I consider those options it begins to redirect me from the routine that enjoy. I will continue to keep an open mind about training because I enjoy learning new things, but I am now set on how I want to train. In other words I feel like my quest that I started by joining this forum in 2004 is nearing its end as I settle into the routine I want to keep for a while.

It seems to me js that you enjoy the routine that you are in. It seems to be working well for you. I hope you continue to enjoy and grow in it.
Of course time changes and so do routines.......
 
felt, Guess we were posting at the same time, just saw your post. It sounds like to me you are there dude. I really wish you continued success and more important fun! 2012 is my year of make it or break it so I will keep posting this season and than probably ride out into the sunset and lurk as you say.

-js
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Now is the time to enjoy. Fortunately for me I enjoy training in the manner listed in my schedule above and from that I am improving. Crazy that doing top of L4 last night was enjoyable, but what a nice way to blow off some steam after a stressful workday or to get out for a 5 hour ride on Saturday.

I suppose I will continue to lurk and see how swampy does in the upcoming epic events and js if you jump into some events this year. Guys its been fun chatting with you. I hope you keep up the good work.

... and "enjoyment", in whatever form that comes in, is what it's all about. The pleasure of doing something you really like and the gratification of doing it better than you've done it before.

Don't lurk...
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .

swampy, Now that I have been playing this game long enough I am kind of starting to figure out what works for me. I have found that if you are going to do the trainer, L3 or SST is the best way to go. Longer rides of the > 2 hours with lots of L3 and some SST mixed in. For the L4 or higher which to me are the 10 min variety or lower are best done outdoors. I have found I get my best efforts and numbers for that type of training outdoors. This was always the plan for 2012.

I agree 100% based on my experience even if I could do 230 watts for 2 hours or 220 watts for 3 hours that unless I can keep up for those shorter intervals it will not be enough especially for the crits and hammerfests. Last year though I had probably my best year outdoors which I think came down to single focus on cycling and the loss of 20lbs. It was not due to better watts output as I had better watts output when I was a bit heavier.

March is here now and the races will start soon and the morning hammerfests will start. This bug has really put a big wrench in my training but I will not be deterred. I will get outdoors come end of this month and work on the other parts of the engine and see how I fare against the folks there. In addition I will show up at my old coaches rides again and see how I do. This is a big test as I used to suck at those sessions and is to me like smoking man was to SOT. If I can do well and see my numbers look pretty good than I will do a race. I really want TT to be my event but I rather see what I am good at and than pick what best suits me.

As for the bug, been hell. Everyday I think it is gone and it just hangs on. I have not rode for a week now and not sure riding or not makes a difference. Last night I really felt it was done and this morning feels like it is still around. Going to the doc Friday if I can not beat it. This one has been a real doozy.

-js
Most folk get better numbers outdoors than in - so that your L4 or higher intervals give you better numbers outdoors is no surprise. Better cooling and a few more things to take your mind off the pain help lots...

If you ride a flat crit with big, wide sweeping corners that you can pedal through (or nearly pedal through) then you don't need massive numbers to keep in touch with the bunch. The tighter the turns or the hillier the circuit, the the default requirement for extra bouts of L5 and L6 increase.

The TT is something that I think that probably suit you. You seem to like grinding out big steady efforts on the trainer so the mental fortitude required to ride a TT is probably there but the TT is a deceptively simple event that's rather evil too... Ride a few - you'll get what I mean. Muhahahahaha ;) The TT also rewards preparation too - there's lots you can do prior to an event that will directly effect the result and based off what you've posted in the past about your prep work for the stuff that you eat far out weighs the effort made by many on getting TT prep done.

Bugs, colds, flu... they happen and even if you stay off the bike a few weeks they never seem to ultimately put as big a dent in training as they seem to do at the time that you're off the bike.
 
Originally Posted by swampy1970 .



... and "enjoyment", in whatever form that comes in, is what it's all about. The pleasure of doing something you really like and the gratification of doing it better than you've done it before.

Don't lurk...
Okay, so I am back already /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Did my first extended mile test yesterday on a rather flat to low rolling hill course. I opted not to throw in the mountain climb and it turned out to be a good choice because a friend that joined me in the ride yesterday really started to struggle about 30 miles from the end. More on that later.

So yesterday I was able to test out my attitude, my discipline of keeping my power aerobic and steady forward motion, bike comfort and nutrition and fluid intake.


1. Attitude - really good, even in the last miles my mind was in good spirit and ready to take on more miles. Once my mind goes so will the body
2. Discipline - really good, when we approached hills or in the temptations on the flats to hammer I kept my power output submaximal.
3. Bike comfort - overall good, but I had some chaffing in the shorts that was really annoying and became very obvious in the hot shower later that evening. Those are my best long distance bibs so the chaffing was odd and uncomfortable.
4. Nutrition and fluid intake - good to satisfactory, I felt solid throughout the ride, never felt queasy or bloated and never felt as if I was lacking. Unfortunately I had to stop and find the bushes far more than I wanted.

I believe had my friend not had some stomach issues we would have made good time. At one of the store stops he drank a Gatorade that did him in. His legs were okay, but he said that he could not overcome the urge to hurl. He managed not to lose it, but really struggled to hold speed on the way back. Another mistake that he made was surging on some sharp rolling hills early in the ride. I told him before we got to those hills I was going to climb them at a slower pace, but for some reason he surged hard. I eventually caught up and he said, "I should not have done that." That was at about mile 30 on the way out. Always seems like you can do those type of things without a cost, but it will eventually play a role later in those long rides.

I have had those type of instances of buying something at the store and it have a negative impact soon after. On these long rides I carry all my own solid food/nutrition and only refill with water because I can trust what I carry not to make me sick. Since Hammer Perpetuem goes rancid quickly I will wait until we roll out to mix the first bottle and carry the power in a small vitamin bottle for later in the ride. Yesterday I tried a mix of Perpetuem, egg white protein and maltodextrin only because I ran out of Perpetuem. It worked well and seemed to stay fresh longer.

My ride and nutrition are outlined on the report below.

Ride report http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/03/brewery-to-old-federal-road-100-mile.html

Overall I feel very good about my fitness in the start of this 2012 season. I feel confident that I could have performed even better.
 
Sounds like you had fun. I'm about to head out now for a few hours :)

As for the perpetuem - it takes a little funky after it starts to get warm but it's apparently good for about 4 hours once it gets to "room temperature" ~ 70F. The unflavored Perpetuem seems to fair the best - with orange vanilla just behind. I hate with a passion the coffee one which I think tastes foul under any circumstance. LOL Personally, I mix it in a Polar Bottle and add lots of ice. If it's a hot day I'll mix it with the ice and put the first bottle I'll drink in the fridge and the rest in the freezer before I have breakfast.

That said, the Ensure seems to be working fantastically and I've switched the regular drink to HEED and only 1 scoop per 22oz bottle. The only problem with the ensure is that the little bottles are uncomfortable in the back pocket unless I sit up a bit more and I don't want to do that... I want my free speed :)
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .


Okay, so I am back already /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Did my first extended mile test yesterday on a rather flat to low rolling hill course. I opted not to throw in the mountain climb and it turned out to be a good choice because a friend that joined me in the ride yesterday really started to struggle about 30 miles from the end. More on that later.

So yesterday I was able to test out my attitude, my discipline of keeping my power aerobic and steady forward motion, bike comfort and nutrition and fluid intake.


1. Attitude - really good, even in the last miles my mind was in good spirit and ready to take on more miles. Once my mind goes so will the body
2. Discipline - really good, when we approached hills or in the temptations on the flats to hammer I kept my power output submaximal.
3. Bike comfort - overall good, but I had some chaffing in the shorts that was really annoying and became very obvious in the hot shower later that evening. Those are my best long distance bibs so the chaffing was odd and uncomfortable.
4. Nutrition and fluid intake - good to satisfactory, I felt solid throughout the ride, never felt queasy or bloated and never felt as if I was lacking. Unfortunately I had to stop and find the bushes far more than I wanted.

I believe had my friend not had some stomach issues we would have made good time. At one of the store stops he drank a Gatorade that did him in. His legs were okay, but he said that he could not overcome the urge to hurl. He managed not to lose it, but really struggled to hold speed on the way back. Another mistake that he made was surging on some sharp rolling hills early in the ride. I told him before we got to those hills I was going to climb them at a slower pace, but for some reason he surged hard. I eventually caught up and he said, "I should not have done that." That was at about mile 30 on the way out. Always seems like you can do those type of things without a cost, but it will eventually play a role later in those long rides.

I have had those type of instances of buying something at the store and it have a negative impact soon after. On these long rides I carry all my own solid food/nutrition and only refill with water because I can trust what I carry not to make me sick. Since Hammer Perpetuem goes rancid quickly I will wait until we roll out to mix the first bottle and carry the power in a small vitamin bottle for later in the ride. Yesterday I tried a mix of Perpetuem, egg white protein and maltodextrin only because I ran out of Perpetuem. It worked well and seemed to stay fresh longer.

My ride and nutrition are outlined on the report below.

Ride report http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/03/brewery-to-old-federal-road-100-mile.html

Overall I feel very good about my fitness in the start of this 2012 season. I feel confident that I could have performed even better.
I think the items in bold and underline caused his Gatorade faux-pas rather than the gatorade itself. Anytime you put yourself in a bit in a pain cave you also put yourself a bit at risk too stomach woes if you suddenly chug a bottle on something sugary. If you do it day in and day out then it's not so bad but for us weekend warriors that put themselves in that state once every so often on a long ride it's a whole different ball game. I've been there and done that and unless I've finished a ride, I won't drink more than 8oz of liquid in one go at a rest stop - the last time I did that was during the Death Ride in 2006 after 3 passes - and I made a smell in one of the porta potties for 3 asses.
 
Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

I want my free speed :)

Absolutely, Absolutely!!!!!

....steps up on the soapbox

I have learned from my mistakes and I now see it when I ride with others on a long distance course or in any training ride, but I learned it from owning and using a power meter. It took me a couple of seasons to really sink into my thick skull, but now it is a pet peeve when I ride with someone and that fails to take FULL ADVANTAGE of FREE SPEED.

I would say that even with some of the veteran cyclists in my group they will coast or barely pedal large portions on stretches of road that are slightly down gradient and at times down gradient with a tailwind. That just makes me want to scream outloud, "STOP COASTING!" Why not shorten the time with free speed at low wattage?

I guess I have just become more content with training solo these days. I suppose it is really hard to find someone to share the miles with that have the same thoughts and goals.

....steps down from the soapbox

by the way now days if someone wants to ride with me and they pull in front of me and starts coasting expect that I will immediately come back around and keep pace.
 
@felt, Glad to have you back but were you ever really gone. I have been down the gatorade road, it can sometimes feels like drinking syrup and can upset the stomach pretty bad at times. I have to mix it with water or have to sip it throughout the ride. Like many times for me, he is just looking for something to get him through the ride as he is coming up a bit short but based upon my experience it does not help. I am glad to read that you are riding with others. The solo route is fine for a while but I think having some group or one to ride with is better. Sounds like the training is working. BTW, I have had chaffing issues and there can be no rhyme or reason to it.

@swampy, Brr, cold out there?

For myself the meds worked! I felt good enough to give the trainer a try on Sunday. Was going to let the body decide and I was able to get in 3 hours with a 147 TSS, nothing special as did 2 hours at 180. Was unsure when I got home if I should not have put in the 3 hours but later that night I could tell we were ok. Woke up finally with a clear head today and the hour ahead thing screwed me up so only got in 2 hours. The 2nd hour did a 220. It was quite hard.

Some concerns though, my lower back was really giving me issues on the left side last night and even today. In trying to solve it, I adjusted the seat which ended up making my right knee really achy. I believe my last PT appointment was a doozy. That night I got what I found out from the doctor a virus and not a cold and I can tell he did something to that left side! I will give it some time and see what happens.

The weather this week here in NYC is suppose to be amazing. I will be making my first go of it outside tomorrow if all goes as planned! I am sure CP will be packed.

-js
 
Not really cold - low 50's, strong wind and some showers... It looked warmer than it was and I was pretty happy that I still had the big overshoes in the big saddlebag from last weekends randonnee. After a couple of hours of grinding it out in the wind being tired always makes it seem chillier than it actually was...

Looks like I'll be saying "Are we there yet?" more than a few times this coming weekend. Weather looks dire and 180+ mile ride is just what the doctor ordered. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif
 
At least you got to chill for a couple of weeks to get to 72...

... I've been smashing my brains in, grinding out 3 to 4 hour rides, adding too much time near theshold on the trainer and tossing in the odd 7 hours in the hills to get mine to almost 70!

I'm off for a lunchtime nap in the car. I'd rather not think about how tired I might be this time next week.
 
I go to bed, getting psyched to get to CP and put in some loops outdoor. Tested last night if outside I would have more comfort than indoors with the LB acting up and it seemed like it would do well. Infact on the way home I had a few riders chasing me as soon as I hit CP and no one could pass me. It was really brief but nice to really open up the engine. The one thing I did notice though I really need to add or move the 42 chainring to the ricthey from the cannondale as I am going to be putting the miles in on the ritchey and I could even tell yesterday that the 42 is really nice comfortable for me in CP. 42/53 is the combo I want.

Anyway got up at 430am and I hear some drops, look at accuweather on my phone and says 53 and cloudy. Go to the window and it is raining!! Just a drizzle so thinking I could give it a go. Head outside and it is not a drizzle (btw accuweather still says all is a go!). I head to the office and starts to pour when I hit 57th street.

Get into my office and hook up the bike. My left side since the cold has been bad and today seemed no different I make my seat adjustments and go. First hour the discomfort is steady and I figure just warm up so I avg 170 but I can tell that the body is ready to put in a good effort today. Do the next two hours at ~210 and avg 190 for the 3 hours. I have not felt this beat up in weeks. Why do we do this again? Also I did not take in enough nutrition so felt a bit of a hurl coming on with wanting to fall asleep. I am so beat up right now. First big 3 hour L3 ride after the cold, a 190 TSS of L3 avg. Happy but so sleepy now. There was one nice thing though that happen 2 hours in. The M#4 F%$#$%& finally moved off the left side. It felt so good!! I could feel it move and the left side release! That is a relief.

The CTL is back to about 75 but tomorrow would be day 4 back on the bike and I think not see it in the cards. Maybe L2 recovery so CTL does not drop as much.

-js
 
swampy, are you still on for the 180 this weekend? I don't know how you do it. I did the 100 on Saturday and I am still feeling the impact of that higher TSS for the last couple of days. I trained last night, but struggled to hold 85% of FTP. I did not train on Sunday or Monday because I felt I needed the extra recovery time. I will probably just do 80 this coming weekend.

Not that it is any great thing like an improved FTP or watts/kg type of milestone, but for the first time since starting to train using a power meter I have hit the 90 CTL mark. That 100 mile really pushed it over, but with Sunday and Monday off it dropped some. After last night it was at 91. It is just one of those things you glance at and think, "cool" and then move on with training.

js, you will be back in the groove soon I am sure. My wife has been ill for several days now. I thought for sure after the long ride on Saturday and how fatigued I felt that I was going to be vunerable to catching her illness, but so far I have made it through.
 

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