Are we there yet?

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .
I was really thinking given how much time and effort I spent this last winter on that trainer and now be 3 weeks off the bike that I should bag this venture. But I am stupid and next week my schedule goes back to somewhat normal so I will get back on.

Will be interesting to see how to approach it.

-js

Welcome back to the suffering. Maybe it will all comeback smoothly /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I had a dose last night, tonight will be easier at L3 and then tomorrow I hope to start my first bout of L5's.
I have never officially done structured L5 intervals so I get my first taste of them tomorrow evening if there are no interuptions to my day.

....bring the pain /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

......but who is going to mow my yard and I am getting behind on so much other stuff to get done around the house as well while I sit on those rollers each evening or riding on the weekend. My wife is not that amused with my dedication to training for cycling.

 

[jsirabella]

felt->Thanks, I tell you I never suffered with allergies but OMG this one hit me like a brick wall. Lucky my wife has some knowledge of it and put me on the right trail. Getting back on track and Monday we ride again! No way around it.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Wow!.....just finished my first session of structured L5 intervals.......brutal, but I love em /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
I have a lot of work to do to improve and extend the time a little bit, but I figure for the first day I can live with it.

 

[swampy1970]

Don't expect much improvement in the first 5 weeks...

... but after 8 to 10 weeks the "magic" happens.

Keep the efforts "honest" and work both ends of L5 (from 5 to 8 minutes and down to 3) and complement with some shorter 1minute and 30 second efforts. As much as they hurt, I used to find the 30 second efforts fun. Literally, wind it up as hard as you can and keep it there.

As odd as it might sound when you're fighting the gear in the last 30 seconds of a 5 to 8 minute effort, try to stay somewhat relaxed and remember to breathe.

For me it was a less glamorous 45 minute easy ride. Got a couple of those in this week after being of the bike the week prior with an iffy hamstring/glute. It was actually nice to just ride around at L2 and relax. Easy rides like that also help for the stupid long rides too after an adjustment has been made on the bike. What feels good when pressing hard on the pedals doesn't necessarily feel great when riding with less urgency - especially when it comes to aero bar setup.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Don't expect much improvement in the first 5 weeks...

... but after 8 to 10 weeks the "magic" happens.

Keep the efforts "honest" and work both ends of L5 (from 5 to 8 minutes and down to 3) and complement with some shorter 1minute and 30 second efforts. As much as they hurt, I used to find the 30 second efforts fun. Literally, wind it up as hard as you can and keep it there.

Thanks Swampy

Being totally new to this experience of a higher intensity (apart from experience doing tabata's with a jump rope or running) I did not know what to expect of myself. I have been reading various articles and forum comments as well as looking at the structure that many will do. On Joe Friel's blog he does a 5 minute on 1 minute off, but I knew that would be too hard for a newbie so I opted to try a 4 on 4 off and see how that would play out.

I used the e-Motion rollers with resistance and I have a little bit of trouble dialing into a precise number. Even with the Garmin displaying Avg 3's to help smooth out the view my power output was up into L6 and down to low L5 at times. I expect that in time I will get a better handle on this as it was the same when I first started using these rollers to do L4 intervals.

I ended up doing 6 sets and then cooled down with 15 minutes of L3 and the last 5 at L2. I barely hit 80 TSS, but for these it seems like this is not near as important as the impact of that "magic" you are talking about. Like you say I will not truly experience that magic until later if I am consistent, but from this initial experience I can foresee the magic. It was just an awesome experience. My legs, though my lungs and heart were screaming, felt oddly like they opened up from the experience. As if all the gunk that has gathered from weeks of endurance training was just cleared out. My legs feel absolutely great today as I sit here, but I am sure if I were on the bike I would feel it.

I did not do well as a veteran would do, but I am excited to get started and throw these in once a week. I understand this is an incremental step forward each week.
Here is how it played out on my first experience and as the weeks go I hope to add 5 minute sessions.

All of these scored well into the L5 range
Set 1 - 4 on 4 off
Set 2 - 4 on 4 off
Sets 3 through 6 - 3 on 3 off

I tried to control the effort on the rollers to get to the bottom of L5 and extend the time, but I could not control it so I just pushed hard enough to stay middle or upper range. I think I will get better control as the weeks go by and I adapt.

 

[swampy1970]

The 5 on and 1 off isn't any easier for a 1st Cat than it is for a "newbie". It doesn't matter who you are, it still fecking hurts... but that's the nature of the beast. We used to do a majority of our mid week winter training at our coaches house on his trainers and when he started the computer and loaded the session and you saw on the TV that it was now time for short interval work, my response was normally of the four letter variety. You'll quickly find out what's sustainable for the set of 5 minute efforts and what isn't.

I don't know if it'll help you or not but I used to find it massively helpful when doing sets with a 1 minute or less rest period to ramp up the start of the next effort 10 to 15 seconds prior to the start of the next interval. You don't have to be at the effort required for the next effort when the interval starts but being at least two thirds of the way there just made it so much easier and made the subsequent shorter efforts in the block that'd follow easier to keep consistant. Keep the power for that under threshold and just let the speed come up.

YMMV but I found that eating at least two hours before doing this type of workout pretty much vital. Empty legs and L5+ don't mix. Full stomach and L5+ efforts really don't mix. I've done both and suffered accordingly upto and including re-inhaling vomit up my nose... It took a good two months of getting used to these efforts to get myself in a place where I could hurt myself that much though. The first few weeks it'll feel like you are but you're not. Being someone who's seemingly more of a fasttwitcher, it might not take you that long.

The sets that we used to do were similar to this.

Warm up

5mins x 2 - with 1 minute rest in between
5 minute rest
2 minutes x 4 - with 1 minute rest in between.
5 minute rest
1 minutes x 6 - with 1 minute rest in between.
5 minute rest
30 seconds x 8 - with 30 seconds rest in between.

Easy riding for 10 minutes.

All apart from the 30 seconds efforts sucked and as long as you made it too the end with something left in the legs then the last set was fun. If you'd killed it on the 1 minute then the 30 second efforts were hell on wheels but do you pay the piper now or pay the piper when you're out on the road and someone is trying to give you hell? Unlike L4 efforts and subsequent easy ride at the end, I found that the "cool down" ride was near mandatory.

 

[bgoetz]

Wow, so I have always kinda known that my sprint is good, but have never been able to get good #s (inside on the CP trainer is hard to get a 5sec or max wattage without tearing the bike off the trainer). My buddy just got a Quarq and we were messing around in a parking lot and I decided to give his bike a go to see what #s I was making during a sprint. His bike is way to big for me and the distance I had in the parking lot was not really the best location to do a max effort (I did not have much distance to get to speed or slow back down), but the results were suprising none the less.

Max-1566watts
5sec-1467watts
10sec-1209watts

I was really just screwing around and know I have gone harder, so I think given the right scenario/location, I could add atleast 100 watts across the board. I think I need my own PM now so I can see just what I am doing when I put bike lengths on people at the end of a race.

 

[jsirabella]

all->You guys are really doing this the right way, getting into the higher end stuff now before the bigger events. For me I thought a leap back! I was nearly at ~100 CTL with nice L3/SST work being the majority of the work ready to hit CP hard. Three weeks of constant work and no time to ride got me down to a 42 CTL!!! Also this year the allergies hit me like a truck! I am not over the allergies but got on the trainer and wanted ti finish 2 hours at any watts. I finished with an hour at 180 but it was way too tough! I need work and time to get any fitness back and my back was feeling really good till I this ride. Seems I got to get back slowly into it. Lets see how it all falls out.

Till than I will live through you guys!

 

[jsirabella]

all->It is starting to come back, the last two days, 2 hours felt huge even at levels like 170 watts but today was able to get in 2hrs 30 minutes at an average of 190. So pretty happy...CTL is pathetic at 50!!

 

[swampy1970]

Don't feel the odd one out JS, I think mine was in the high 40's before today's ride. 400km (252miles), mostly lumpy course with a few descent sized hills too. Not downloaded the PT data yet but did expend over 7200KJ. Apart from dicing with a touch of cramp from mile 190 due to some guy nailing it on every roller on the Silverado trail, everything else felt great... I would be too surprised if I racked up more L5 than I had in any ride in the last 5 years. ... Until I was unloading the car when I got home and started shivering like crazy, bent over to grab my helmet and my lower back just seized. Sat in the Prius hatch for a while before hobbling into the house like I sh1t my pants. Lara bars = the win. Soft, very easy to chew, taste great and fairly small. 200kcal.

 

[bgoetz]

JS/Swampy- Do you guys think it is actually possible to have a CTL as low as 50/40? I guess I had always figured that CTL is suppose to represent your current fitness level on a bike, yeah it basis it off of the last 42 days of training, but a lot of the natural fitness that we have built over years of cycling is something that will remain well beyond 42 days. So while the 42 day window makes sense for most purposes, specifically with regards to building CTL and loosing CTL, I would have to think that at some point it is not reflective of loosing. So I guess my thought was that even if you did not train for months, your CTL should bottom out at some point well above zero. Dave always recommended seeding WKO at 60/60, so I had always figured that point was around 50 or 60.

I think the fact that even with a CTL of "40", Swampy was able to complete a ride like he did sort of supports my theory....

 

[Felt_Rider]

swampy, I tend to agree with bg. If my CTL was in the 40's I would do well do squeak out a 100 mile ride with a lot of suffering. 252 miles? That is a crazy distance IMO. Very impressive day on the saddle.

If all goes okay this week I may be adding a new Felt and then selling my old Felt F45. Right now this frame is being sold by a bike fitter and I have an appointment on Tuesday to see if it will fit me. All the geometry numbers look okay, but I am glad to have a fitter check it out before I purchase. This will be a rough fit and then I will get it fined tuned once I get it built. That is if they have not already sold it. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


I have 3 road bikes with the Felt F45 being the oldest so I figure why not get rid of one and add a TT bike to the stable. This TT frame is priced too good to pass up.

​

 

[swampy1970]

JS/Swampy- Do you guys think it is actually possible to have a CTL as low as 50/40? I guess I had always figured that CTL is suppose to represent your current fitness level on a bike, yeah it basis it off of the last 42 days of training, but a lot of the natural fitness that we have built over years of cycling is something that will remain well beyond 42 days. So while the 42 day window makes sense for most purposes, specifically with regards to building CTL and loosing CTL, I would have to think that at some point it is not reflective of loosing. So I guess my thought was that even if you did not train for months, your CTL should bottom out at some point well above zero. Dave always recommended seeding WKO at 60/60, so I had always figured that point was around 50 or 60.
I think the fact that even with a CTL of "40", Swampy was able to complete a ride like he did sort of supports my theory....

It's very possible to have a low CTL... Where I find the biggest difference is with L4 and higher work. With a balanced training program that includes all the L5 goodness that you should be getting at this time of year, any lack of training that results in a big CTL drop will see your top end drop off enormously. L2 - that seems to hang around forever...

 

[jsirabella]

all->Good to see the posting.

Last two days I locked myself in my office and did two rides racking 170 TSS each to start to build up the CTL ramp again. I am at `59 now but they were tough rides that really should not be so tough based upon past experience. Yes 3 hours on the trainer always kills me but I did an avg of 190 on Sat and ~180 today. Based upon this experience BG I have to agree with swampy that my SST and above took a hit. I am in building mode again to get back into my 220s and above.

swampy, 252 miles and not much training prior, amazing dude. But you worry when you told me your LB seized up. Based on the fact that you did not curl up into a fetal position and did not move you got out of it ok. When doing that many miles I would take a tylenol or two or even a glass of tonic water to make sure that does not happen to you. Yes tonic water is putrid but it works with no chance of harm. Myself it seems my back has turned into traditional LB where by hour 3 my ass feels like ... well you know already and runs down the leg. It goes away relatively fast but man it is annoying as I type in a mini-cobra position waiting for my lunch,

Felt, awesome looking bike. Hope the training is going well and a TT in your future?

Someone told me this week that I should try a grand fonde (sp??) a race/ride where guys in the front race while folks in the back just want to finish. Neve heard of them. Any of you folks do one?

Anyway I have a couple weeks here in NYC and I will hit CP before I go to Chicago by end of month.

-js

 

[swampy1970]

To be fair I did do the 300km a month ago and a 200km a couple of weeks before that... it's just the 'regular' training as been a bit shy of late.

Duration: 13:29:42 (15:30:27)
Work: 7248 kJ
TSS: 586.2 (intensity factor 0.659)
Norm Power: 178
VI: 1.19
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 248.369 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 559 149 watts
Cadence: 29 203 76 rpm
Speed: 0 40.3 18.4 mph
Pace 1:29 0:00 3:15 min/mi
Hub Torque: 0 41 6 lb-in
Crank Torque: 0 782 172 lb-in


I must remember to start the PT after a reststop before I start going...

48minutes L4
21 minutes L5
14 minutes L6

... that would have made a good workout on it's own without the 200 miles of L1 and L2.

As for the back - still hurts like hell until I finally stand up and after 5 minutes of slowly walking around things seem a fair bit better but still not great. I'm guessing that something took object to the prior effort and bending over while shivering last night. While I wasn't in the fetal position, I was, after managing to get up, in the bent over hand's on knees and shuffle forwards position but I'm not too overly worried as it only seems to get worse again if I sit down. It's ironic that my back now feels like this as after the ride it was feeling great. I'd ridden my old road racing frame (that started off life as a time trial frame - 76 degree seat tube angle - that was replaced by one with an 82 degree seat after I discovered the 76 was good for road racing), so 23lbs of steel with a 15lb rack/bag full o stuff and fenders was the steed for the day.

Not a triathlon bike, not a touring bike... A Tourathlon bike?



Must remember to read the emails that the organizers send out the day before the email saying that they'll be putting on more food 'n stuff. That would have saved a bunch of weight. LOL

Felt,

That looks like a really nice frame. Hope it works out for ya.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Well at least I can tell others I know someone (in the virtual world) that is an ultra distance cyclists. I don't know of anyone in my personal cycling circle that does those type of distances (all at once). Hey, I like the tourathalon bike /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

js, I know you will be back up in no time. I am approaching my time away coming up in about a month. I was hoping that we were going to a place where it was cycling friendly, but looks like we are going back to the same spot (non-cycling friendly). I was talking to my wife last night and I think I am taking the bike and the trainer and just do my training up in the condo looking out at the ocean. Probably could set it up out on the balcony and get plenty of early morning ocean breeze to keep me cool.

I am getting excited just thinking about not losing any training time. Crazy, but I fear taking time off now. After my last vacation it felt like it took me a couple of months to get back into the groove and not get dropped on every ride. I was talking to one of my cycling friends yesterday and he said the same thing that he dreads having to go on vacation from the aspect of losing training time. We must be crazy and obsessed /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

About the TT frame. When I was casually looking around the other day and saw the 2011 Felt B10 frame for sale and the price I just could not resist. The description said the guy that purchased it got the wrong size and rode it just a couple of times. Although it was made specifically for the Di2 system it will take mechanical gearing as well, but the timing for purchase is not so good. I will probably buy components for it as I find as cheap as possible online with free shipping and it will probably take me until fall to get this thing built. That is if I really buy it on Tuesday. I am getting more excited about it though and hope it fits.

 

[jsirabella]

felt, If you are driving to your destination, no issue on the bike but man on the plane I calculated it and sometimes can cost half the price of a bike! I need a car rental at times, extra luggage and unless your bike comes apart than you got odd size charges.

swampy, if the issue is from sitting which makes alot of sense given the hours you spent in the saddle let me give you my advice. Ice is your friend! Take an ice pack and put it on the tip of your lower back and feel the comfort!

-js

 

[swampy1970]

Felt, thanks for the kind words but I'm not an ultra cyclist - those guys do rides that require serious prep and training. I'm just a guy that used to race and some of that carried over... Just having fun. As for the vacation, you could always rent a bike. I don't know what the scoop is elsewhere but some of my friends that have come over from England have said they'll likely rent the next time they're over - take your clothes, shoes and pedal and have at it. There's a number of bike stores here in the SF Bay Area that rent out half way descent bikes and I'm guessing that this isn't the only place that does...

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Felt, thanks for the kind words but I'm not an ultra cyclist - those guys do rides that require serious prep and training. I'm just a guy that used to race and some of that carried over... Just having fun.
As for the vacation, you could always rent a bike. I don't know what the scoop is elsewhere but some of my friends that have come over from England have said they'll likely rent the next time they're over - take your clothes, shoes and pedal and have at it. There's a number of bike stores here in the SF Bay Area that rent out half way descent bikes and I'm guessing that this isn't the only place that does...

Well compared to what I do you are to me /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


This is our third time to this particular place and I have searched high and low for different possibilities. The only bike shops they have are beach cruisers, but even worse are the roads are all highly traveled and narrow. You don't even see many of the beach cruiser bikes out on the roads. I have also looked for cycling clubs, but there were not any listed. I have looked for routes on places like Mapmyride, but the only thing listed was the yearly Ironman and I am sure the roads are blocked off for that race.

No big deal because we are driving down and if I take my bike and trainer I can do short intervals in the condo and spend most of my time with my wife. I need to spend time with focus on her anyway since most of my normal days are spent working and training. If I do 60 minute sessions each day that will be enough to keep my fitness from falling to the floor and yet not interrupt the more important aspect of spending time on vacation. I know that I need to do this because I have heard more than a couple of times, "you care more about cycling than me" something that we are in need of a vacation and a break from the daily routine. However, I think she will be good with short intervals as we have talked about it. She plans on working out at the fitness center in the condo as well. I would use the fitness center, but I cannot stand being on one of those Life Fitness bikes for more than a few minutes, but I may end up going with that option as well. I don't need to stay in top shape, but I don't want to hit the bottom either. Actually I have been going at this for more than 6 months with no break so a drop back to some easier short L3 type sessions may be good for me.

This past week I had some amazing training sessions. My Saturday and Sunday time was limited for endurace so I did 40 miles on each of those days with higher intensity and was really surprised at how great the legs felt out on the road. I am very happy with how things are progressing.

 

[swampy1970]

Partial success! I can now walk around like an old man - but a fairly pain free one Now I can think about cruising the last few hours on the next long ride on the flat roads back into Davis... Not really too sure what went on to cause nearly all of the muscles in my lower back and hips to spasm. Last night was a "fun" visit to my preferred bodywork place - fun if you like pain and discomfort...