Are we there yet?



Originally Posted by gman0482 .

So I had another flu/cold stint, and didn't train for 6 days. Yesterday was the first day I felt ok, but I was scared that I lost some form. To my surprise, I felt great, doing what started out as a low L3 2x20, and ended up with SST for the last 20 mins. I guess it can all vary as far as loosing form, and how quickly.

I'm hoping to get out on the road finally, maybe for my B-day this Thursday, if it ever stops raining.


-Greg
sometimes the body needs time off to come back strong!!! Sounds like that was the case for you. A week off is not usually enough to lose fitness. Two weeks is usually the magic number when you start to lose fitness. Less than that and you just get much-needed rest.
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 .

So I had another flu/cold stint, and didn't train for 6 days.
Greg,
Same here, second cold of the winter hit me middle of last week and missed a bunch of training days. Decided not to train through this one hoping to get through it quickly and to get back on track. First ride back today and just went out and rode Tempo/SST pace but like you had a very good ride.


...I'm hoping to get out on the road finally ... if it ever stops raining...
If I waited for that I wouldn't ride outside till mid July ;)

-Dave
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 .

So I had another flu/cold stint, and didn't train for 6 days. Yesterday was the first day I felt ok, but I was scared that I lost some form. To my surprise, I felt great, doing what started out as a low L3 2x20, and ended up with SST for the last 20 mins. I guess it can all vary as far as loosing form, and how quickly.

I'm hoping to get out on the road finally, maybe for my B-day this Thursday, if it ever stops raining.


-Greg

G - gettin' soft on me, I hear./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif I don't have enough cheese to go with all this whinin', so get some booties, a plastic jacket and get 'er done! Like Dave said, in this part of the world if we didn't ride in the rain we'd probably only get 60 outdoor days a year...Who am I tryin' to kid? LOL! I'm allergic to that wet stuff too...

Hope you're able to control your appetite when you're off the bike. Between having the discipline to stay off the bike and not eating too much, getting sick is definitely a challenge...ease your way back into it, IMO - don't want to prolong anything...
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 .

I'm hoping to get out on the road finally, maybe for my B-day this Thursday, if it ever stops raining.


-Greg
I would die for some rain. I want to ride my roadie and am stuck with the MTB and almost 800 studs. It sure makes it hard to go fast.

This is what I have to look forward to.


If you feel bad for me follow the link below and give me a thumbs up so I have a reason to go to California. Yes this is a shameless plug!!!
 
Haha, yea I know I'm a wimp. I guess I've gotten used to my usual New England winter, that it's sometimes harder to remember there is this other world out there, where people actually ride on the roads.

My new excuse: I still need to get some 60mm tubes for my new wheelset, so that's why I haven't gone out there, ok ? ;)





My other excuse: Stockholm syndrome to indoor training...




MMMHills- Haven't you already won enough on this forum ?? A sweet Guru Photon perhaps ??? You gotta go and shamelessly plug your post too ?? BTW, I looked up your forecast for next week and there's sun and in the high 60's... LOL, j/k, good luck... Look, I know I don't stand a chance winning any contests, eventhough it would be the best B-day present for me to go to Cali and watch the race.


-Greg
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 .





MMMHills- Haven't you already won enough on this forum ?? A sweet Guru Photon perhaps ??? You gotta go and shamelessly plug your post too ?? BTW, I looked up your forecast for next week and there's sun and in the high 60's... LOL, j/k, good luck... Look, I know I don't stand a chance winning any contests, eventhough it would be the best B-day present for me to go to Cali and watch the race.


-Greg
Yes I have and I feel like the luckiest man alive. I have always wanted a weight weenie build but just could not aford one and thanks to this forum and Guru I now have a dream bike. If no one votes for me because they don't think I should win again then I would understand. Yes the weather hear in Northern Michigan at spring time goes from cold and snow to warm (60 F) and sunny. I have been out on the Guru 5 times but am dieing to get out some more.

Greg the votes are small if you can get to California for your B-day write a story and I will give it a THUMBS UP.
 
Originally Posted by tonyzackery .
G - gettin' soft on me, I hear./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif I don't have enough cheese to go with all this whinin', so get some booties, a plastic jacket and get 'er done!
+1
 
gman->Has not been the best here but honestly it really does not get that great in tri-state area till about May. Lucky on the cold front as not been hit with a bad one but traveling and work will start to get in the way which means lots of gym type bikes. I go to Boston on Friday for a convention in the Hines center for the weekend. Nice center by the way and right in the middle of Boston. Much more traveling as we get into June->August.

Today was a good training day as the heavy feeling left the legs, back to the trainer and good old 3 x 20 but given the new ftp going with a 220-230 range. Felt real good was almost boring till I got to the last one. Will continue to work in more variation though as Dave gave some examples. I am thinking also now to throw in a few 1 minute intervals at >350 once a week and see how they feel will adjust them. I think time to fit in some other parts of the engine as long as does not take away too much from the base building.

Oh yeah my CTL is at about a 91 right now. I have noticed that endless CTL in the past for me really did not do much and really trying to be smarter this time around.

Does the strategy of after hitting a new ftp and letting the CTL say drop maybe ~20-25 points and than build back up again to the 90s been tried by anyone? As I look at my PMC chart that seems to be what happen when I hit my last new FTP and now hit a new one. What do you guys do after you hit a new FTP in terms of training for the next high?

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .

...Does the strategy of after hitting a new ftp and letting the CTL say drop maybe ~20-25 points and than build back up again to the 90s been tried by anyone? As I look at my PMC chart that seems to be what happen when I hit my last new FTP and now hit a new one. What do you guys do after you hit a new FTP in terms of training for the next high?
I've certainly never tried a strategy like that nor would I be inclined to plan a strategy like that for myself or others. Sure, CTL ramp rate always drops and sometimes stagnates a bit when FTP is bumped up in WKO+ that's pretty normal as it takes more time or more intensity to generate additional session TSS after an FTP increase. But CTL shouldn't really drop at least not by 20+ points unless you're timing a rest break or cutting way back on either weekly time or session intensity following an FTP bump.

I agree with you that chasing sky high CTL as a first priority isn't the best strategy, that's effectively what a lot of weekend warriors do who ride very long (but often slow) rides every weekend even if they don't realize it. They emphasize quantity over quality and rack up big workloads at relatively low intensities and get good at long slow miles without necessarily improving much in terms of sustainable power and FTP.

But on the other hand CTL built on a well rounded program and as a reflection of how much 'quality' training you're doing on a regular basis does tend to reflect overall fitness and depth of training base. Yeah, more isn't always better but sharp drops usually aren't better either unless you're intentionally trying to peak for an important event. Even in a pre-event taper I'll rarely drop 20+ CTL points so doing that each time you increment your FTP in WKO+ really hits me as a bad idea.

What are the circumstances related to those CTL dips? Are you cutting back on hours relative to what you were doing prior to the FTP bump? Are you bumping up your FTP estimate in WKO+ by a lot (say 20-30 watts as opposed to 5 or maybe 10) and session TSS drops dramatically? Are you doing different style workouts after your FTP bump that are more L2/L3 focused and seeing TSS drop for similar time on the bike? Something doesn't seem to add up or is it just coincidence that life has gotten in the way following some of your recent FTP bumps and you've had to back off on training overall for reasons not directly related to your FTP improvement?

FWIW, I usually see a steep CTL ramp in the week or two proceeding an FTP increase. You could argue that what I'm really seeing is the FTP increase itself and session intensity and hence session TSS rises because my FTP has risen and I haven't yet changed the value recorded in WKO+. That's one of my big clues that I'm due for an FTP assessment as I start seeing higher than normal IF or higher than normal TSS for similar rides. When I do bump up the FTP value in WKO+ the ride IF and session TSS go back down a bit but my CTL doesn't generally drop, at most it stagnates for a bit until I adjust to the newer higher targets.

YMMV,
-Dave
 
Originally Posted by MMMhills .




Yes I have and I feel like the luckiest man alive. I have always wanted a weight weenie build but just could not aford one and thanks to this forum and Guru I now have a dream bike. If no one votes for me because they don't think I should win again then I would understand. Yes the weather hear in Northern Michigan at spring time goes from cold and snow to warm (60 F) and sunny. I have been out on the Guru 5 times but am dieing to get out some more.

Greg the votes are small if you can get to California for your B-day write a story and I will give it a THUMBS UP.
I did write a story, the one in front of yours. I gotta give you credit, the signature is a nice touch. Good luck, maybe I'll make the trip win or no win and see you there if you win.
 
dave->It was a coincidence in that I hit a new ftp prior to my trip to SC. I did do some riding in SC but all gym miles and not as long as usual. So when I got back I dropped from a 97 CTL (new high of 235 ftp, 2/13) to an 84 CTL on 2/20. Than from 2/20 to a 4/16 got it back to 99. I took off a day before and hit the new high of 245 (4/18). I thought that maybe the drop/rest/rebuild in CTL from 2/20 to CTL of 99 on 4/16 could be part of the reason of the new high.

I guess what I was not accounting for is that with the new ftp I will get less TSS on rides and a slower build in CTL. Cause it would seem to me that if I just keep with SST/L4 work indefinitely that CTL will just grow and grow and grow. Even though I have to admit from a week off I can see a 10 point drop! So it can fall back pretty fast.

In the end I was hoping to find trends in the chart to know when an ftp jump may be in store. In some sense now I have no choice but to make sure that the time on the bike is used for quality not quantity I have seen a difference. I thought maybe part of the lesson is when to know NOT to train.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .
...I thought that maybe the drop/rest/rebuild in CTL from 2/20 to CTL of 99 on 4/16 could be part of the reason of the new high. ...
It may very well be part of why you actually saw the new high. I misinterpreted your earlier post and thought you'd seen higher power numbers, readjusted your FTP, and then seen a CTL drop in that sequence. It seems that you had a training interruption for travel, your CTL dropped and then you punched out some higher power numbers and subsequently adjusted your FTP. That's not surprising as a bit of freshness can go a long way.

But the question is whether your body suddenly adapted and your FTP actually rose or you just got some extra freshness and finally saw the results of your training that weren't obvious till you got some additional recovery. I'm guessing the latter. It get's back to what FTP is, and what it isn't. It is your best sustainable power for roughly an hour set on an ideal day with adequate recovery, nutrition, hydration, motivation, pacing, etc. What it's not is your day in, day out on demand power for an hour that you'd expect to see whenever you want. From that standpoint FTP represents your capabilities and not necessarily what you see in your power files on a daily basis and although you saw it after some extra freshness, the real adaptations that delivered that higher FTP were happening even when you were carrying too much training fatigue to see it.

Regardless, your numbers moved up and it doesn't sound like the CTL drop was a result of the FTP increase, more of a coincidence.


... Cause it would seem to me that if I just keep with SST/L4 work indefinitely that CTL will just grow and grow and grow. Even though I have to admit from a week off I can see a 10 point drop! So it can fall back pretty fast.
CTL will only continue to grow long term if your training load in weekly TSS also grows long term and in absolute power terms that gets harder as your FTP rises. So new FTPs are a bit of a double edged sword, we all want to see them go up but every time we reset our FTP we know that we now have to work at higher absolute power levels or for more time to continue to grow our CTL. In relative terms it shouldn't matter as we shouldn't bump up our FTP for PMC purposes unless we've got the additional fitness to back it up in which case we're still working about as hard in a relative or RPE sense. Or as Lemond said 'It doesn't get an easier, you just get faster...'

CTL drops roughly 2.4% between the current value and the TSS of each day. So if you take a total rest day your CTL will drop ~2.4% of your current CTL. If you do a workout that yields a TSS of twice your current CTL your CTL will rise by ~2.4%. Do a workout with three times the value of your current CTL and your CTL will rise ~ 4.8% of its current value, etc. So basically it takes a lot to make up for a complete rest day and is one reason to include some active recovery days that yield low TSS, help you to bounce back quickly from harder days but still prop up your CTL a little. For instance do a steady low to mid intensity ride that yields a TSS of half your current CTL and your CTL only drops ~1.2% which is a lot easier to regain on subsequent harder training days. We all need rest but not every rest day needs to be completely off the bike.


... I thought maybe part of the lesson is when to know NOT to train....
That's definitely part of what the PMC and tracking CTL can show you but IME it's tied closer to things like CTL ramp rate and sustained negative TSB than it is to adjusting your FTP setting.

-Dave
 
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

FWIW, I usually see a steep CTL ramp in the week or two proceeding an FTP increase. You could argue that what I'm really seeing is the FTP increase itself and session intensity and hence session TSS rises because my FTP has risen and I haven't yet changed the value recorded in WKO+. That's one of my big clues that I'm due for an FTP assessment as I start seeing higher than normal IF or higher than normal TSS for similar rides....
That's what I started to look for when adjusting FTP in WKO+. If there's few weeks of increased TSS and consistently higher IF then I'll think about either retesting or just adjusting as long as there's no apparently fatigue above and beyond normally associated with training, which could just suggest overreaching during training, being a bit too enthusiastic and going down the route of things non-sustainable.

JS, If you're doing similar training throughout the year, how about switching things up every few months and throwing in 4 to 6 weeks of shorter harder intervals. It could be good for the mind and good for the legs. There's some fairly handy adaptations that come with a good block of L5 and L6 efforts...

... says he who hasn't really done any since 1996. LOL.
 
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .



It get's back to what FTP is, and what it isn't. It is your best sustainable power for roughly an hour set on an ideal day with adequate recovery, nutrition, hydration, motivation, pacing, etc. What it's not is your day in, day out on demand power for an hour that you'd expect to see whenever you want. From that standpoint FTP represents your capabilities and not necessarily what you see in your power files on a daily basis and although you saw it after some extra freshness, the real adaptations that delivered that higher FTP were happening even when you were carrying too much training fatigue to see it.

-Dave
It may be a red herring but this one I used to struggle with meaning based upon my latest results I did 245 watts and to say I can repeat at will, I can not. So is my ftp 245 or if I had even more ideal circumstances I should plug in 250. If I remember in the past you once advised to plug in a number slightly higher than your ftp so you can train at a level you want to hit so your training is working around that number. I apologize if I mis-remember.

As for CTL I see now that it has to be made up of solid SST/L4 efforts to real see the gains. Nothing wrong on a rest day to do some light riding or none at all. I believe I need to know when NOT to train as that sometimes is the hardest thing for me. I get bull headed about that to my detriment. To swampy point also I need to mix it up as you suggest to not make it feel like a job and to build the other parts of the engine. As I see as I go back to CP that it is the other parts of the engine that matter in many ways cause while I can hold 245 for an hour, if I do not hold i.e. >300 for 5 minutes than I will loose lots of wheels in front of me. I may eventually see them later in another part of the park but not the same.

As a side story yesterday saw the strangest thing as I was going home. A guy who looked like a TT guy was riding a hybrid as he was in a really tight TT position. Just wonder if there is any method to the madness of this training.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .




It may be a red herring but this one I used to struggle with meaning based upon my latest results I did 245 watts and to say I can repeat at will, I can not. So is my ftp 245 or if I had even more ideal circumstances I should plug in 250. If I remember in the past you once advised to plug in a number slightly higher than your ftp so you can train at a level you want to hit so your training is working around that number. I apologize if I mis-remember.

As for CTL I see now that it has to be made up of solid SST/L4 efforts to real see the gains. Nothing wrong on a rest day to do some light riding or none at all. I believe I need to know when NOT to train as that sometimes is the hardest thing for me. I get bull headed about that to my detriment. To swampy point also I need to mix it up as you suggest to not make it feel like a job and to build the other parts of the engine. As I see as I go back to CP that it is the other parts of the engine that matter in many ways cause while I can hold 245 for an hour, if I do not hold i.e. >300 for 5 minutes than I will loose lots of wheels in front of me. I may eventually see them later in another part of the park but not the same.

As a side story yesterday saw the strangest thing as I was going home. A guy who looked like a TT guy was riding a hybrid as he was in a really tight TT position. Just wonder if there is any method to the madness of this training.

-js
Repeating a one hour effort at your FTP, in training, week in and week out isn't something that most can do. A more realistic way of looking at it would be: What power can you routinely generate during long intervals - like 2x20s. If you can manage 245 for two 20 minute efforts and it honestly feels like darned hard work then 245 is definitely in the right ballpark and that's the number you put in for your FTP.

Holding that for one hour will probably require some freshness and extra mental stimulous - ie a race situation: aka 40km TT or a princely sum of money for a lab test that you have to nail. Sitting at home on your trainer or pounding the same roads as you'd done since the dawn of time probably isn't going to provide the required effort.

Maybe the guy on the hybrid just wants to go fast or look fast. The method to the madness is that you perform best in the position you tend to train in the most. If he rides a road or TT bike at the weekend and intends to go fast then riding in a low compact position most of the time is the way to go.
 
Completed my 1st TT today, it went OK, I think I will try to work a bit more on my TT ability, maybe working training in at least 1 time per week. It was a 14.7K TT, the 1st 1/4 of the course was flat with a brisk (8-10mph) head/cross wind, 2nd 1/4 of the course was flat with a brisk tail wind, 3rd part of the course was rolling with a brisk (8-10mph) head wind. I did not have a TT bike, I just threw some decent aero bars on and put a different seat post/seat to adjust my position.

I went out too hard and was to the point where I was ragged breathing after 2k or so. I was able to regroup somewhat on the tail wind section and get into a better pace, but once I turned onto the last section I was toast. I did the best I could to keep somewhat of a rhythm, but I was all over the place. In the end I was able to finish in 22' 38", which got me 7th place in our club. All things considering (no TT bike or aero wheels for that matter, still kind of sore from training to hard this week, and blowing myself up) I was not to disappointed with my results. I think I could realistically shave 2 minutes by the end of the season, given the equipment I am using.

For perspective the 1st 3 spots were taken by the clubs very accomplished Cat 1 cyclist, one of which is a nationally renown time trialist. They finished 19.12, 19.23, and 20.0?, all fully outfitted in TT gear (not that I could have beaten them had I had the same equipment)

On a brigher note I have been upgraded to a Cat 4!!
 
BGoetz, congrats on the TT. I'm in the same boat as you on that. I don't have a TT rig either, but I'll enjoy the weekly wednesday's TT that goes on for the whole season. I don't feel any pressure to get an amazing result like in an annual race, and I can just keep practicing to get better. Just like with my weekly Sunday's training crits, that also count towards Cat points. I need 5 more to get Cat4 I think, but still need to pass in a couple of slips from last year. I hope it's not too late.
 
Gman, I don't think there's a timelimit for Cat5 - if there is it'll likely be 12 months. On another note I'm asking frank and the guys at PowerCranks to rename their product TerrorCranks. 3.5 hours hard, out in the flat roads - just me and the wind. Pantera's song Slaughtered would have been most apt. It's been a long time where I've been on the verge of cramping in both legs in several muscle groups... ... More of the same tomorrow. :)
 
Hate coming back from a business trip. WKO+ calls them rest days and my CTL drops like an anchor. Let me see my rest day yesterday consisted of me having to take down my booth, put away merchandise, get skid made, stand all day on concrete and than have two flights cancelled in Logan and finally getting back to NYC by 10pm. What a rest day? Feel beat today and can barely get 40 minutes of SST work in a 90 minute workout. UGH!!

Just venting as I feel like hit by a truck today. The difference between cycling being a career and a hobby I guess. Never know what your potential could be.

-js
 
..

Originally Posted by jsirabella
.
...Just venting as I feel like hit by a truck today....
I hear you, travel days suck and leave me exhausted even though I didn't really do anything.

Good example of the way the PMC and CTL only reflect training load and not overall life stress. Those little lines don't tell you how much harder your body is working to deal with injury or illness or extra work and family stress or poor sleep or travel days or anything else outside of your workout sessions. But they sure do a nice job of showing you how much the workouts are stressing you.

If it's any consolation, even professional cyclists have to deal with travel days, sitting in airports, signing autographs all day at trade shows and other stresses outside of training. But at least they don't have to get up on Monday morning and sit at a desk all day before doing their training...

-Dave
 

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