Are we there yet?



Originally Posted by gman0482 .


So once again, I'm off of the bike for 8 days now with my hip killing me. I had this problem on and off for years now, did the chiropractor thing before with not much help, and cortisone injection is not a solution either. I got a referral to go see a musculoskeletal specialist, so I hope it's nothing major.

Just as the weather is finally getting here, and my winter training was the best this year, something always gets in the way. What else is new ?? lol.

-Greg

It must be contagious

I tweaked my lower back last Monday (most likely a pinched nerve) while in the office. I was in a lot of pain Monday through Thursday. I was uncomfortable sitting, standing and lying down.

I tried to train on Thursday but just could not get over the pain in my hip to push the wattage. I spent some time on the inversion table, taking ibuprofen to reduce inflammation and a lot of stretching.


Saturday I did a 55 mile ride with two extended climbs and lot of big rollers. That was frustrating. Every pedal stroke felt like a nail being driven through my hip, but in the last few miles it stopped hurting. Seemed like getting some motion in the area despite the additional discomfort helped. It was a roll of the dice, but it worked out okay this time around. Sunday I tried 2 x 60's intervals and did not have much discomfort, but also did not have that much performance in my legs, but I think that was more to do with being fatigued from the Saturday ride. Even though it was a short 55 mile ride there was a lot of climbing.

Kind of a bummer since my event that I was planning to attend is this coming weekend. I will probably go, but I may not do the century. Depends on how this week of training goes.

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting others trying to work or train through the pain. I am just not that bright when it comes to making sound decsions. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
felt->First off, good to see you posting but sorry to see that you tweaked your LB. I know you had success with chiros so maybe a visit is in order. Otherwise IME the best thing is to make sure in the office you get out of your seat ideally every 15 minutes, a few standing cobras and maybe some ice/heat 15 minutes a pop.

As for the pain going away after riding a certain number of miles also IME that is not the key. The key is how you feel the next morning or a couple hours after you get off the bike.

Good luck you and gman. Hip pain though does not run through the buttocks to the side. Hip pain runs through the groin and is a deeper feeling. When it runs through the buttocks it is LB and the lower the pain runs the more you have to watch out.

-js
 
I went to my chiro the day after I felt the sensation since they are closed on Monday's, but there was nothing he could do for me. He checked out my back and said it actually looked to be more in line than usual. I suppose since I spent that evening with intervals of hanging from the inversion table trying to decompress the area. I have some degeneration in one of the lower disc and it does not take much for that nerve to get impacted now and then.

I will be back to training tonight, but will probably stick with a SST/Tempo effort for two reasons. One, to ease back in while monitoring the area and the second because I have my big event coming up this weekend and do not want to build up any risidual fatigue. I am not sure I will do the full century now. I feel as if I have the conditioning (I have done several 80 to 100 mile rides the past few weeks). At mile 80 in this event is the "wall" with a 500 yard 20%+ section and a 2 mile 10% leading up to it. All the other climbs do not concern me too much, but I am not sure I can generate enough power to get over that steep hump with this issue.

This past weekend I did have some steep rollers, a 9 mile climb and a 5 mile climb and seemed to do okay. I kept my power output as low as possible for climbing those gradients on the training ride, but still did not feel all that great. My legs felt blocked up or lazy from not training for several days in a row.

I will stick with no greater than SST/Tempo for the remainder of this week and take Friday off or may get on the bike for a couple very short intense intervals to open up the legs.
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

...I will stick with no greater than SST/Tempo for the remainder of this week and take Friday off or may get on the bike for a couple very short intense intervals to open up the legs....
FWIW, I'd strongly recommend taking Thursday, not Friday as your total rest day before the weekend and make mid Tempo your cap for intensity this week. You're realistically not going to gain any measurable fitness this week and you're nursing an injury. Give your body a chance to heal and just ride enough to keep the legs moving this week, get the heart pumping a bit but no sense in pushing either duration or intensity right now. The worst case of 'over-resting' this week is that your legs will take a while to open up. In a crit or short time trial that could be a deal breaker but on a century where you know the crux is towards the end it's not a bad deal to open up your legs in the first hour or so and save something for the hard part.

I'd lean heavily towards easy rides to stay loose and extra rest this week and no big gear slamming if you're dealing with joint issues. Rest completely a couple of days out, open up a bit on Friday and plan to pace the early miles on Saturday to help you loosen up.

Good luck,
-Dave
P.S. This is a good time to think about riding cagey. Yeah it's not a race but you can approach it like one and ride with a pre-game plan of not doing any extra work, no hero pulls, no pushing the pace or feeling an obligation to roll to the front for the first hour or more of the ride so that you have time to loosen up and assess your recent injury. If everything is good after that hour or two then there's still plenty of time to tow your buddies or do your share at the front but aggravating your recent injury in the opening miles by working harder than you have to isn't going to make anybody happy, least of all you.
 
felt-> If it is disc and not muscle I really recommend strongly the idea of more standing, cobras and the ice/heat combo for a little bit. 90% of these issues clear up in the first month and since your issue was not due to a fall or something like that your chances are very high that all will be well soon enough. But like Dave stressed let the body heal. The main problem with discs as opposed to muscle is that no blood really gets into that area unfortunately so the healing process is long.

I am not sure if you want to try this now but maybe a little change in the position on the bike. Ever so slight change so more of your body weight is on the front as opposed to the back of your body. It can be a deal maker for a century where you are doing long hours in the saddle. Just a thought...

-js
 
Thanks Dave and js
Sounds like good advice

I just found out that the 100 mile course will have to be changed this year because of the tremendous amount of damage from recent tornadoes. I planned on riding this one with some of my friends at a recreational pace and try to keep the TSS down under 350.

The century the following week is the one that I would like to do well. I was hoping to do a sub 5 hour this year at this event, but they changed the course this year as well so I don't know how that will play out. No big deal either way.

My main goal is still focused on building that aerobic engine.
 
For you guys with soreness/hip injuries have you given a foam roller a try? I am certainly not saying this is the answer, but when I have some pelvic issues the PT had me use one and not only did it seem to help my injury, but it made my legs feel 10x better than a good stretch. It was so great that I actually just purchased one ($29 at Dicks). To me it acts as a giant rolling pin that does a great job of loosening me up, just like a massage would. One caveat though the first time you use one, you will be sore, especially if you use the black roller. Our local semi pro hockey team actually uses 6" PVC to do the same thing, but I can't imagine how sore you may be after something like that!!
 
I LOVE the foam roller. Definitely the less expensive alternative to a massage. . . . but it can be painful :)
 
Originally Posted by CalicoCat .

I LOVE the foam roller. Definitely the less expensive alternative to a massage. . . . but it can be painful :)

+1
I don't use it much, but I suppose I should. It does a great job to a deep tissue massage if you can bare the discomfort especially if you are using it across the IT band.
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .





+1
I don't use it much, but I suppose I should. It does a great job to a deep tissue massage if you can bare the discomfort especially if you are using it across the IT band.

It's like anything else. Regular use seems to ease the muscles so they're not so tender and I guess you just get used to it too... Plus you don't have to put all your weight on it.
 
I have to say I am battling several ailments going into this Saturday event.
The one that may cause me to go the shorter course is a problem with my hand.

Because I am talking to cyclists I will make a self-diagnosis for the moment of Cyclist Palsy or potentially impacted Ulnar nerve.
For all that I do (lifting, at a keyboard many hours, cycling, working around the house) I cannot say this injury came about a couple weeks ago from cycling, but logging a lot of training hours has not helped me recover either. Two weeks ago on a 100 mile training ride there was so much discomfort toward the end that it was almost unbearable to lightly place my hand on any part of the bar regardless of position.

Last night I stopped by the store and purchased a couple types of gel cushions intended as metatarsal gel pads (shoe cushions). They are cut similar to the size of my palm and fit perfectly as slipped into the glove as a little bit more cushion. The gel has a tacky soft rubbery feel and while I experimented on the bike last night it did seem to provide a little bit extra cushion along with the glove pad and did not slip around at all. They also did not interfere with bike control since I experimented while on the rollers.

The pack came with 4 gel cushions. I will no doubt use them as a glove insert, but I am also thinking about put one on each side of the top of the bar and wrap bar tape around them and the existing bar tape for a temporary measure to help get me through the next couple weeks of centuries. I will use Gaffer's tape on the ends to hold it in place since that tape does not leave a sticky residue when the tape and gels are removed later.

My team kit gloves are sufficient padding for normal circumstances, but I hope with a little bit of enhancement with the gel cushions I can get through the next couple of weeks and then give my hands (and body) a break.

Like my disclaimer above for the back injury I am not endorsing training with an injury, but some of us are just stubborn. I think many veterans will agree that when you train hard you will encounter injuries of various sorts and degrees and each of us has to decide if going forward is worth the cost. In my case I will at least start down the road and if by the metric turn off things are looking bad I will not go forward on the 100. I have too many hours invested in training, entry and travel fees paid and I am looking forward to at least giving it a try.
 
felt->When I did more touring, they would always tell me about "cork" on the handlebar. Not sure exactly what they meant but it was suppose to really help for long hours of holding the bar. For me two pair of gloves, one pair being actually weight lifting gloves was more than enough for long rides. In addition when I did touring I would adjust the position on the bike so I would be a bit mroe upright with less weight on the bar and would change position on the bar every hour or so. Given the back issues though putting more weight on the backside may not make sense as I would much rather have hand issues than back issues.

It sounds like to me you are using alot of good old common sense in your approach to the ride and you can decide which ride is more important to you in the coming weeks in the hope to plan a recovery in time for it.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .

felt->When I did more touring, they would always tell me about "cork" on the handlebar. Not sure exactly what they meant but it was suppose to really help for long hours of holding the bar.
Cork handlebar tape is a great way to improve the comfort of your bars. Cinelli makes some of the best cork tape available these days but there are some other brands out there as well. For really rough rides like Paris Roubaix riders often double up wrapping a second layer of cork tape over their normal layer for extra padding. That's what I'd recommend to Felty either in addition to or instead of extra padding in your gloves. I'd also consider raising your bars a bit if you can and or shortening the stem to take some weight off your front end until your hand issues are resolved.

Also make sure you're not doing this while riding, it's a common way to cut off circulation and pinch nerves. The back of the hand should run in a straight line through the wrist to the forearm not a sharp angle:


-Dave
 
Thanks guys

I found this as well this morning http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2010/abstracts/177.pdf
I can't do much with the bike components in this short of time notice except double wrap and I am too nervous to tinker with bike fit. I typically leave that to the pros locally.
I would probably get myself more screwed up than help. Much like when I try to do my own bike tune ups. I typically make it worse. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
Dave posted a link fairly recently for a video done by John Cobb - the aero guru that also has some good ideas on bike fit. His comments on relieving pressure on the back and hands to seem somewhat counter intuitive at first in that lowering and/or lengthening the stem will help relieve a lot of lower back and hand pain.

I was trying to figure out why I never had hand pain/numbness when I raced when I was younger but I frequently did in recent years. As I adjusted my position to stretch me out more, the pain either became less intense, less frequent or went away entirely. As I relied more on the effort of my legs and muscles in the lower back to effectively provide more of the support for my torso I found that my hands, arms and shoulders in particular felt much fresher.

Felt. Specialized do a nice "under tape" gel kit that guys like Boonen have used with some success in the cobbled races. IIRC, Cipollini helped develop the Specialized bar gel kit. The Specialized mitts also have significantly more padding and have a fantasic soft fabric section that goes from the inside of the thumb down towards the wrist that's ace for wiping your nose with. Velvety soft ;)

The Cinelli cork tape is great though and the only reason I don't have any on my bike right now is that all the local stores were out of white. Grrrrrr. The Fizik tape is naff in comparison... hateful stuff.

That pic that Dave just posted made me smile. I always used to climb hills in that position when seated but I never really put that much weight on my hands.
 
I wanted to go back to this post by Dave because it had so much in it to consider and I took it to action this week and will continue through the event tomorrow.

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .
FWIW, I'd strongly recommend taking Thursday, not Friday as your total rest day before the weekend and make mid Tempo your cap for intensity this week. You're realistically not going to gain any measurable fitness this week and you're nursing an injury.

[COLOR= #a52a2a]I kept my intensity very low this week to let my back heal. I had a good discussion with my chiro and he believe I had bulging disc and the pain was radiating out to my hip. By me using my inversion I was relieving the pressure off the disc allowing it to heal more quickly. Gave my legs a chance to recover from past weeks of increased hours and miles of training. I feel refreshed this morning and my back feels good at the moment. [/COLOR]

Give your body a chance to heal and just ride enough to keep the legs moving this week, get the heart pumping a bit but no sense in pushing either duration or intensity right now. The worst case of 'over-resting' this week is that your legs will take a while to open up. In a crit or short time trial that could be a deal breaker but on a century where you know the crux is towards the end it's not a bad deal to open up your legs in the first hour or so and save something for the hard part.

I'd lean heavily towards easy rides to stay loose and extra rest this week and no big gear slamming if you're dealing with joint issues. Rest completely a couple of days out, open up a bit on Friday [COLOR= #ff0000](1)[/COLOR] and plan to pace the early miles on Saturday to help you loosen up.

[COLOR= #a52a2a]I did a very light warm up on a spin bike and I used a spin bike as my weapon of choice because how it functions. I had very little tension during the warm up and once warmed up I did a series of no more than 5 standing sprints of less than a minute each. The spin bike suits well for its ease of set up and stability in a hard standing sprint.[/COLOR]

Good luck,
[COLOR= #a52a2a]Thanks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/COLOR]

-Dave
P.S. This is a good time to think about riding cagey. Yeah it's not a race but you can approach it like one and ride with a pre-game plan of not doing any extra work, no hero pulls, no pushing the pace or feeling an obligation to roll to the front for the first hour or more of the ride so that you have time to loosen up and assess your recent injury. If everything is good after that hour or two then there's still plenty of time to tow your buddies or do your share at the front but aggravating your recent injury in the opening miles by working harder than you have to isn't going to make anybody happy, least of all you.

[COLOR= #a52a2a]This is something I told my friends weeks ago even before the recent injuries and ailments that I was going to do this event this year at a recreational pace rather than trying to set a PB like I have done in previous years. My decision actually goes back to when Dave and RDO impressed upon me how to go about building the aerobic engine. I decided then that I was going to get on that type of program for at least two years and when I entered some of these annual favorite events I would treat them like a training ride. So far that is what I have done on each of my centuries in 2011. [/COLOR]

[COLOR= #a52a2a]This year I plan to stay on that program, but I now have to consider the injuries and not jepordize long term goals by further aggrivating those injuries. So tomorrow I will not be posting anything here like some great achievement. Tomorrow I just hope to survive the ride with the additional current discomforts [/COLOR][COLOR= #ff0000](2) [/COLOR][COLOR= #a52a2a], keep my TSS low enough that it will not cause more recovery time and just keep pushing toward the goal of increasing aerobic capacity. Plus one of my friends has been traveling with business and will not be able to hammer. So I will keep him company and let him draft me as much as possible at a milder pace.[/COLOR]
(1) - Because of the injury to my back and the pain radiating in my hip over a week ago and having to miss several day of cycling training I did a short 55 mile route. However, this route had a couple of sustained climbs and with the discomfort in my hip it was hard to push the wattage because each pedal stroke felt like a nail driven into my hip, but the other thing was my legs were blocked up (felt lazy and lacking zest) because of those day off. At the end of the route I noticed what Dave points out for a long ride and clearing the legs. By the end of the ride the sharp pain was almost gone, but I also noticed in the last ten miles my legs were feeling more spirited and responsive as some of the steep 1/4 mile rollers would require standing. At the very end of the 55 mile route I felt like I could have done another 50.

(2) - Concerning my hand and potential nerve damage, I had some Deda bar tape at home (certainly a lot more cushion than the tape the shop used. I used the Deda tape with gel inserts on the top of the bar and double wrapped down to the curve in the drops and secured the end with Gaffer's tape. My bar is oversized on the top so with it being double wrapped and a gel insert the circumference on the top looks like that of almost a baseball bat handle. I think this will give me plenty of surface area so any pressure will be distributed more across my hand than in a focal point. I believe what caused this issue is actually my work setup with the keyboard and desk. I am working on trying to change that, but for today I am wearing a wrist brace for carpal tunnel that is helping. I just wished I had realized this sooner. Now I just need to endure it tomorrow and make sure I don't use bad position during the ride.

___________________________________________________________________
Here is why I hope to keep my TSS down below 400 tomorrow.
From Trainingpeaks

The following scale can be used as an approximate guide:
  • Less than 150 - low (recovery generally complete by following day)
  • 150-300 - medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
  • 300-450 - high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
  • Greater than 450 - very high (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)

________________________________________________________

I want to ride the event tomorrow and hope to stay below 400 on TSS so that I can recover and get back to my training routine. However, I have another century coming up the following weekend so I will do this event, rest, spin light for a couple of day and do the century on the 14th. After that event I will be back to my normal training routine building on the aerobic engine.

Since last June I have been following something similar (may not be exact) to what I have seen Dave post to others and it has been working out well. Since late February I picked up Saturday to 80+ mile training rides that are typically low L3 for huge blocks of time. Recently going up to 100 mile training rides for Saturday's.

Mon - Off
Tues - L4 Intervals 2 x 20's
Wed - L3/SST
Thur - L4 Intervals 2 x 20's
Fri - Off
Sat - 5 to 6 hours, try not to exceed 350 TSS
Sun - 1 to 2 hours SST depending on Saturday's TSS

In previous years I was not too bad in high spirited group rides of routes less than 50 miles and fizzled if the group stayed at that pace for routes over 60 miles. Now I am seeing the shift and starting to feel good with longer distance.
 
Felt,

Good luck on the ride and I hope your ache and pains ease rather than re-occor. Tough organized rides that are well supported are always fun.

A bit of a change on the training front for me this weekend. A departure from the "lets see how many KJ we can rack up in about 2.5 hours" or "start hard and hang on till ya blow..." that's been the norm for the past month to something a little longer in prep for the Davis Double in a couple of weeks. Last year I figured that I needed at least one big ride before the Alta Alpina (198 miles, 20,000+ft of climbing) in June, so the DD is it. The last 70 miles of the DD are the polar opposite of the Alta Alpina ride - pan flat, lots of open fields and every couple of years they get infernal heat. Might have to borrow some of those John Cobb prizm/mirror glasses so I can just ride head-down and hope I don't fall asleep... :p

The subtle changes on the bike setup are working very well. Gone are the shims under the right shoe, replaced with a crank that's almost the same amount shorter and a longer stem. Saddle height was reduced slightly too.
 
advice->The training has been going along well as now I have made a Thursday a 2 x 20 @ >95% and I actually got a 250 in one and given an ftp of 245 that was nice to see. But I am noticing outdoors that I just do not have the "snap" I instead seem to always decide to grind and throw in a higher gear. I believe my brain is smarter than me and knows that for my LB issues that high cadence creates the most discomfort. So instead of taking off today I decided to get on the CT and do > 95 rpm intervals, no worries about watts and than even greater than 120 for 1 minutes bursts. My question is I have heard the term cadence drills, what should the be like? I figure that is what I need to do to get the "snap" in my legs back from yesteryear.

-js
 
Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Felt,

Good luck on the ride and I hope your ache and pains ease rather than re-occor. Tough organized rides that are well supported are always fun.

A bit of a change on the training front for me this weekend. A departure from the "lets see how many KJ we can rack up in about 2.5 hours" or "start hard and hang on till ya blow..." that's been the norm for the past month to something a little longer in prep for the Davis Double in a couple of weeks. Last year I figured that I needed at least one big ride before the Alta Alpina (198 miles, 20,000+ft of climbing) in June, so the DD is it. The last 70 miles of the DD are the polar opposite of the Alta Alpina ride - pan flat, lots of open fields and every couple of years they get infernal heat. Might have to borrow some of those John Cobb prizm/mirror glasses so I can just ride head-down and hope I don't fall asleep... :p

The subtle changes on the bike setup are working very well. Gone are the shims under the right shoe, replaced with a crank that's almost the same amount shorter and a longer stem. Saddle height was reduced slightly too.
Thanks
I feel like such an endurance wimp now. I cannot imagine a double at the moment. I could drive a sag vehicle for you as long as I can stop, get out and stretch now and then. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .



Thanks
I feel like such an endurance wimp now. I cannot imagine a double at the moment. I could drive a sag vehicle for you as long as I can stop, get out and stretch now and then. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
To be honest, the course for the Alta Alpina (of which the second half is basically the Deathride in reverse) is that inspiring you can't help but keep pedaling just so you can see more of it. I've been doing rides up there for the past 5 years and those roads never get old. It'll be interesting to see what doing a different double is like. I'll probably nod off and end up in a ditch as the last 1/3 will be straight flat roads. ZzZzZzzzz lol.

They don't allow private sag vehicles but feel free to drive me home afterwards - the drive back through the hills always seems more challenging than the ride itself. :p

Some nice pics up in them thar hills near Markleeville.

http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/2005-05-21-markleeville-ebbetts-monitor/

This really isn't what you wanna see after ~110miles heading towards the last 90 where the bulk of the climbing is:



... but it really only means one thing - empty roads mostly devoid of cars. On the shorter Death Ride, these roads are completely closed to traffic and the harder climbs are done at the start of the ride.

On the Alpina, this is the view you get from Monitor Pass after 165miles and 7 passes. 7.6 miles and 3,000ft to the bottom where the green green grass is... Wide roads, 7.5% average gradient from here and mostly wide bends = weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Fantasic stuff.



... the only downside is at the bottom you gotta turn around and come back up it for the final pass of the day.

But if you can do 100 miles then it's just a case of knocking off about 10 watts, sitting on the bike and pedalling for a bit longer and gearing accordingly. Watch the watts for the first few hours, or not if you set off in the dark :p and from then on you'll be set. It's when you go into "hero mode" on rides like the Alpina that you end up in trouble and attempt to get up extended sections of 10% to 12% after 155 miles at the same speed you'd done on shorter rides. You find out the "tank" runneth empty real quick and the "engine" lacks the zip it had earlier in the day.

The support on Alta Alpina is beyond comparison. It doesn't matter if it's 35F and 8700ft up Ebbetts pass in the hail or sunny in the valley you get the red carpet treatment - and, if you don't fancy doing all 8 passes, they have many different course options.