Armstrong and Lemond



D

David Ferguson

Guest
On 22 Jul 2005 07:02:47 -0700, "gym.gravity" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>David Ferguson wrote:
>> On 21 Jul 2005 13:35:31 -0700, "gym.gravity" <[email protected]>
>> >
>> >Among all the talk about Hincappie possibly riding for GC, Bruyneel
>> >commented that at training camps, there are guys that get stronger
>> >after each successive day and guys that get weaker and that is what
>> >makes a GC rider. There's definitely a gift to being able to recover
>> >quickly.

>>
>>
>>
>> But I think it has to do with the long history of tough training.
>> Which is why it's so hard for young riders, no matter how strong they
>> are on a one day basis, to do well in the Tour.
>>
>> It takes years of training to build the ability to recover fast.

>
>Oh, I get it, George hasn't trained as hard as Lance and that's the
>difference.
>
>?



We're not arguing whether or not Hincapie is as naturally gifted as
Armstrong. And the difference between the two of them is NOT recovery.
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Kyle Legate <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Stupid Newbie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>David Ferguson <[email protected]> wrote in
> >>news:[email protected]:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:40:17 +0000 (UTC), Stupid Newbie
> >>><[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Yes, some of Armstrong's grudges are
> >>>>understandable--against his former Cofidis team management,
> >>>>or Lemond. But some of them seem just cases where he takes
> >>>>a remark or gesture out of context to invented a 'slight'
> >>>>or insult, just for self- motivation; a form of lying to
> >>>>oneself, or it seems to me.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>So what? It's no crime to be a skeptical and suspicious
> >>>person. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame
> >>>on me. There are a lot of people that way. If I count on
> >>>you and you let me down then get the hell off. He's got
> >>>enough wheel suckers pretending to be his friends that he
> >>>doesn't need more. Cancer is a ***** and people bail left
> >>>and right. If you live through it and those types of people
> >>>come into your life you can recognize them and you don't
> >>>put them in your "circle".
> >>>
> >>>But I guarantee you this. If you are in that circle there
> >>>is nothing he wouldn't do for you.
> >>
> >>I'm not talking about him being angry with people who've
> >>attacked him, or questioned his integrity, or who abandoned
> >>him during his cancer. My point is that part of his self-
> >>motivation program seems to be taking someone else's comments
> >>or guestures out of context, and 'spinning' them in his own
> >>mind into a personal attack or a slight, creating a grudge
> >>out of, well, not much. All to build up a "I'll show 'em!!"
> >>anger which he feeds off of in his preparation.

> >
> >
> > Suppose he is not taking remarks "out of context?" Suppose he
> > knows that the context is the mind of a person who would suck up
> > to him then betray him first chance they get?
> >

> Would Floyd Landis fall into this group? Lance seems to have done some
> mean spin on Floyd's comments to L'Equipe in his head.


Most of what I have to say is based on supposition, but what have
we to go on? I will not accept, however, the supposition that
Landis did not know exactly what he was doing when he made the
remarks. He knows Armstrong well enough. He knows Armstrong will
respond in force: denounce Landis and drop him one GC position. So
why did Landis make inflamatory remarks in the middle of a
competition? To you and me reading Landis's remarks they tell a
simple story about how Armstrong conducts himself as the team
leader. But they have a relationship, and part of the relationship
is exactly how they viewed Armstrong's position as boss. Perhaps
they disagreed about what that position subsumed and what it did
not subsume. Perhaps Landis rankled. Perhaps Armstrong made
overtures of friendship to Landis and Landis rejected them.

And yes, maybe Armstrong considers Landis unreliable as a
confidant. Then Landis, aware on some level of this assessment,
decides to bait Armstrong.

--
Michael Press
 
D

David Ferguson

Guest
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:12:35 -0400, David Ferguson
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>> It takes years of training to build the ability to recover fast.

>>
>>Oh, I get it, George hasn't trained as hard as Lance and that's the
>>difference.
>>
>>?

>
>
>We're not arguing whether or not Hincapie is as naturally gifted as
>Armstrong. And the difference between the two of them is NOT recovery.



Oh, and no, Hincapie probably hasn't trained as hard as Armstrong. It
would be an interesting question to pose to him.
 
J

Jet

Guest
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:52:53 -0400, David Ferguson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:12:35 -0400, David Ferguson
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>> It takes years of training to build the ability to recover fast.
>>>
>>>Oh, I get it, George hasn't trained as hard as Lance and that's the
>>>difference.
>>>
>>>?

>>
>>
>>We're not arguing whether or not Hincapie is as naturally gifted as
>>Armstrong. And the difference between the two of them is NOT recovery.

>
>
>Oh, and no, Hincapie probably hasn't trained as hard as Armstrong. It
>would be an interesting question to pose to him.


That's an interesting comment. I'd rate hard training with an absolute
scale and with a relative scale.

For instance, given his gifts, does GH train as hard as LA. Maybe take into
account things like suffering, perceived exertion, time work done at 4
beats about LT, etc. Maybe George works harder in some ways just trying to
keep up - goes into his red zone more frequently.

But Chris Carmichael said the other day that he thought LA was in the most
amazing shape of his life -last- year. If I had to compare Armstrong's
training at his best versus GH's training at his best, there'd be a
surprisingly large difference. (Carmichael also mentioned something about
LA generating more than 900 watts climbing yesterday or the day before. It
was on the evening show so I'm not sure I can quote it.)

OTOH, and I'm just wildly hypothesizing here, the better shape you're in
the more you can make yourself suffer, and the more you will do those hard
intervals, the more you'll try for up until now unheard of things (like
riding l'Alpe d'Huez four times in a day).

I'd say by just about any objective measurement of GH's training vs Lances,
George would be somewhere around half (difficulty, intensity, etc.) - iow a
very large difference.

It's always stunning to see a guy just ride away from a group of riders in
the Tour, but these efforts have to be measured somewhat b/c there might be
80km yet to ride.

I'd like to see what it would be like for a top rider to try and stay with
Lance on just a training ride, where either could really hammer away. It
must be an awesome sight. Uh, see it from a helicopter, that is, lol.

jj
 
E

Ernst Noch

Guest
Stupid Newbie wrote:

> You're ignoring two key Armstrong advantages, both of which
> are likely biomechanical and/or genetic and therefore he can
> take no credit for:
>
> 1) He, and Basso, are better climbers than Jan; specifically,
> they can accelerate better due to their quicker cadences.
> Even if Ullrich's not out of gas, his big-gear climbing style
> doesn't lend itself to quick accelerations, so he can be
> bested within the final kilometer of a climb if Armstrong or
> Basso still have gas. Ullrich has to win climbs by dropping
> the competition before the end with a steady fast pace; if
> they are still with him at the end, he's potentially in
> trouble.
>
> 2) Armstrong has *phenomenal* recovery after hard efforts.
> This is not only a HUGE advantage in racing, it's also a HUGE
> training advantage. Armstrong can train at a level that would
> be overtraining, even leading to injury, for others.
>
> Maybe Ullrich training harder in the offseason would make him
> a better cyclist. Then again, maybe it wouldn't. Kloeden's
> early season poor performances this year, in fact, have
> been ascribed to him *overtraining*, not undertraining. Some
> people are better by off taking time off.
>


I heard an interview with Voigt where he said something like:
"If Armstrong didn't exist, we'd today nobody would criticize Jan's
training methods and it'd be general knowledge that using big gears in
climbs is the way to do it."

And he's damn right with that.