Rolfrae said:
- Posted by David Walsh in Dublin:
Hi Lance
Did you enjoy my last book?
David
Armstrong comeback!
- Thread starter SLG
- Start date
I wonder what Vino thinks of this? When will he be able to ride again? I can't wait: Armstrong, Leipheimer, Contador, Ulrich, Vinokourov, Kloden, heck, maybe Johan can persuade Basso to come over too. The only thing that would make it better would be to add Hamilton and Botero. Maybe even Mayo, does he have a job now??? Dude, man, dude, that would be awesome!!! Talk about rockin with the oldies!
Personally I don't think it would be much of a battle if Lance and Jan came back. Jan would be the first one to fall off the back (somewhere near the start of the climb), and then Lance. First mountain stage, shows over. All this hype for nord. Ullrich will be waaaayyyyy to damn fat and without dope, Armstrong won't be able to stay with Contador or Levi.
My money says that Lance will sustain some type of injury and won't even participate in the Tour. But, we'll see.
Talk about rockin with the oldies!Personally I don't think it would be much of a battle if Lance and Jan came back. Jan would be the first one to fall off the back (somewhere near the start of the climb), and then Lance. First mountain stage, shows over. All this hype for nord. Ullrich will be waaaayyyyy to damn fat and without dope, Armstrong won't be able to stay with Contador or Levi.
My money says that Lance will sustain some type of injury and won't even participate in the Tour. But, we'll see.
It is my understanding that Australia leads the world in research into and treatment of skin cancer but according to this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/sports/othersports/25vecsey.html?ref=sports
"Armstrong plans to race next January in Australia; he did not mind saying that Australia does not do enough to combat melanoma, a form of cancer prevalent in that sunny part of the world."
I don't recall armstrong being in australia before. Shows how much of his loud-mouthed ignorance he has lost. And yet he won't learn much about skin cancer if he is here on a cycling holiday - except by being exposed to the sun himself.
In the same article armstrong suggested that he had never been a domestique. la's memory is poor. Before he had cancer he was never in any significant team as a team leader or sprinter or for that matter climber or time trialler. I wonder what his job was then if it wasn't to support other riders.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/sports/othersports/25vecsey.html?ref=sports
"Armstrong plans to race next January in Australia; he did not mind saying that Australia does not do enough to combat melanoma, a form of cancer prevalent in that sunny part of the world."
I don't recall armstrong being in australia before. Shows how much of his loud-mouthed ignorance he has lost. And yet he won't learn much about skin cancer if he is here on a cycling holiday - except by being exposed to the sun himself.
In the same article armstrong suggested that he had never been a domestique. la's memory is poor. Before he had cancer he was never in any significant team as a team leader or sprinter or for that matter climber or time trialler. I wonder what his job was then if it wasn't to support other riders.
One thing that strikes me with this (same with other teams employing 'anti doping' programs & doctors) is they are employed by the people to 'test' them.C'dale Girl said:LA put Don Catlin in charge of his personal anti-doping testing program, so surely he'll be riding clean:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/3075200/Lance-Armstrong-confirms-his-return-for-the-2009-Tour-de-France-with-Astana---Cycling.html
They are now no longer an outside party but an internal part.
Who's to say the 'anti doping' programs are not in fact doping programs made to be within the limits &/or undetectable.
So is Armstrong employing Catlin to try and find him positive if he can?
How does the so called employed 'anti doping' thing really work.
A silly question that may have been over looked so far.
With all the Ullrich talk is it not forgotten that with the Puerto link confirmed by DNA, no sanction was given to Ullrich (as per Basso) but would it not happen that he could not get a racing licence because he could (or would) still be sanctioned which would then be a life ban being a second offence?
Which would make this whole racing return thing a mute point wouldn't it?
With all the Ullrich talk is it not forgotten that with the Puerto link confirmed by DNA, no sanction was given to Ullrich (as per Basso) but would it not happen that he could not get a racing licence because he could (or would) still be sanctioned which would then be a life ban being a second offence?
Which would make this whole racing return thing a mute point wouldn't it?
Bikeridindude said:I wonder what Vino thinks of this? When will he be able to ride again? I can't wait: Armstrong, Leipheimer, Contador, Ulrich, Vinokourov, Kloden, heck, maybe Johan can persuade Basso to come over too. The only thing that would make it better would be to add Hamilton and Botero. Maybe even Mayo, does he have a job now??? Dude, man, dude, that would be awesome!!!
Ultimately all power at Astana is centred around Vino.
Vino was the man who started the team.
Vino was the man who lined up the sponsors.
And Vino is the political link between the team and it's sponsors and the political establishment in the country.
Vino ultimately determines who's hired/fired at Astana.
To flesh out an earlier point.
The rumour for the past few months is that an approach was made by Armstrong and/or his people, to put together a one-off team of great retired/forced to retire riders for one-off seasons racing.
The idea being that these guys would ride as a team against the new generation -under the pretext of raising cancer awareness.
Jalabert's is one rider who was approached.
Several riders, I'm told were approached but a lot of responses to these approachs were lukewarm.
Also the fact that there might be trouble in getting accreditation given the principals history was a roadblock too.
The rumour for the past few months is that an approach was made by Armstrong and/or his people, to put together a one-off team of great retired/forced to retire riders for one-off seasons racing.
The idea being that these guys would ride as a team against the new generation -under the pretext of raising cancer awareness.
Jalabert's is one rider who was approached.
Several riders, I'm told were approached but a lot of responses to these approachs were lukewarm.
Also the fact that there might be trouble in getting accreditation given the principals history was a roadblock too.
The Paul Kimmage reaction, via Podium Cafe, via Cycling Fans Anonymous:
"My reaction...the enthusiasm that I had built up about the sport in the last couple of years has been all but completely wiped out in the last couple of hours.
Let’s turn the clock back to Armstrong’s last apparition in the sport. The Tour de France 2005. He’s standing on the podium. And he makes this big impassioned speech. Which is basically saying ‘The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics, the sceptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.’ That was 2005, his last ride in the the Tour de France. And the people flanking him on that podium were Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich. And a month after that race ended the French newspaper L’Equipe reported that in his first winning Tour de France, in 1999, Armstrong had tested positive for EPO. Six separate samples taken during that race revealed positive tests for EPO.
This return, he wants us to believe that it’s all about saving the world from cancer. That’s complete ********. It’s about revenge It’s about ego. It’s about Lance Armstrong. I think he’s trying to rewrite his exit from the sport. He’s sat back and he’s watched the last two years and he cannot stand the idea that there are clean cyclists now that will overtake his legacy and buy the memory of all the **** that he put the sport through.
When I heard it being mooted first that he was coming back, I thought well that’s fine, because the first thing ASO are going to say is ‘sorry Lance, we’ve seen your results from the 1999 tests , you’re not coming back.’ I expected a similar statement from Pat McQuaid. What’s happened instead is that Christian Prudhomme has said ‘yes, you can come back, no problem.’ And Pat McQiad has said ‘I really admire this man, he’s a tremendous ambassador for cycling.’ What we’re getting here is the corporate dollars and the money that’s going to accompany this guy back into the game. The money that’s going to bring for Nike, one of the big sponsors of the Tour. And for the UCI, who have been experiencing some serious problems in the last couple of years.
Much as you want to say the sport has changed, as quickly as they can change their own opinions – McQuaid, who says one thing in private and quite the opposite in public, and Prudhomme – if they can change so quickly then I’m sorry, it’s really very, very difficult to have any optimism with regard to Armstrong and the way the sport was moving forward. For me, if he comes back next year, the sport takes two steps back.
I spent the whole Tour this year with Slipstream, the Garmin team. That wasn’t by accident. I chose that team deliberately, because of what they were saying about the sport and the message they were putting out. But also the fact that so many of that team had raced with Armstrong during his best years and knew exactly what he got up to. And the stuff that I learnt on that Tour about him and what he was really like was absolutely shocking, really shocking.
What’s going to happen now is he comes back and everybody’s going to wave their hands in the air and give him a big clap. And all the guys who really know what he’s about are going to feel so utterly and totally depressed. And I’m talking about Jonathan Vuaghthers, who raced with Armstrong that first winning Tour and who doped. And if you look at that Tour, Armstrong’s first win, there were seven Americans on that team. Frankie Andreu has said he used EPO. Tyler Hamilton has been done for [blood doping]. George Hincapie was exposed as a doper by Emma O’Reilly, the team soigneur. Christian Vand Velde and Jonathan Vaughters … both are members of Slipstream and would promote the notion that this was not a clean team by any means. When you look at that and what Armstrong’s done and how he’s seemingly got away with it, it just makes his come back very hard to stomach.
Astana’s the absolute perfect team for him. He’d be renewing his old acquaintance with Bruyneel, who wanted to hire Basso last year. Will he be renewing his old acquaintance with Ferrari, the famous doctor? Will Bruyneel be taking pictures of the questioning journalists and pinning them on the side of his bus?
When Armstrong talks about transparency, this is the greatest laugh. When he talks about embracing this new transparency … I’m really looking forward to that. I’m really looking forward to my first interview request with him and seeing how that comes back. Because that would really make it interesting.
This guy, any other way but his bullying and intimidation wrapped up in this great cloak, the great cancer martyr … this is what he hides behind all the time. The great man who conquered cancer. Well he is the cancer in this sport. And for two years this sport has been in remission. And now the cancer’s back."
"My reaction...the enthusiasm that I had built up about the sport in the last couple of years has been all but completely wiped out in the last couple of hours.
Let’s turn the clock back to Armstrong’s last apparition in the sport. The Tour de France 2005. He’s standing on the podium. And he makes this big impassioned speech. Which is basically saying ‘The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics, the sceptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.’ That was 2005, his last ride in the the Tour de France. And the people flanking him on that podium were Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich. And a month after that race ended the French newspaper L’Equipe reported that in his first winning Tour de France, in 1999, Armstrong had tested positive for EPO. Six separate samples taken during that race revealed positive tests for EPO.
This return, he wants us to believe that it’s all about saving the world from cancer. That’s complete ********. It’s about revenge It’s about ego. It’s about Lance Armstrong. I think he’s trying to rewrite his exit from the sport. He’s sat back and he’s watched the last two years and he cannot stand the idea that there are clean cyclists now that will overtake his legacy and buy the memory of all the **** that he put the sport through.
When I heard it being mooted first that he was coming back, I thought well that’s fine, because the first thing ASO are going to say is ‘sorry Lance, we’ve seen your results from the 1999 tests , you’re not coming back.’ I expected a similar statement from Pat McQuaid. What’s happened instead is that Christian Prudhomme has said ‘yes, you can come back, no problem.’ And Pat McQiad has said ‘I really admire this man, he’s a tremendous ambassador for cycling.’ What we’re getting here is the corporate dollars and the money that’s going to accompany this guy back into the game. The money that’s going to bring for Nike, one of the big sponsors of the Tour. And for the UCI, who have been experiencing some serious problems in the last couple of years.
Much as you want to say the sport has changed, as quickly as they can change their own opinions – McQuaid, who says one thing in private and quite the opposite in public, and Prudhomme – if they can change so quickly then I’m sorry, it’s really very, very difficult to have any optimism with regard to Armstrong and the way the sport was moving forward. For me, if he comes back next year, the sport takes two steps back.
I spent the whole Tour this year with Slipstream, the Garmin team. That wasn’t by accident. I chose that team deliberately, because of what they were saying about the sport and the message they were putting out. But also the fact that so many of that team had raced with Armstrong during his best years and knew exactly what he got up to. And the stuff that I learnt on that Tour about him and what he was really like was absolutely shocking, really shocking.
What’s going to happen now is he comes back and everybody’s going to wave their hands in the air and give him a big clap. And all the guys who really know what he’s about are going to feel so utterly and totally depressed. And I’m talking about Jonathan Vuaghthers, who raced with Armstrong that first winning Tour and who doped. And if you look at that Tour, Armstrong’s first win, there were seven Americans on that team. Frankie Andreu has said he used EPO. Tyler Hamilton has been done for [blood doping]. George Hincapie was exposed as a doper by Emma O’Reilly, the team soigneur. Christian Vand Velde and Jonathan Vaughters … both are members of Slipstream and would promote the notion that this was not a clean team by any means. When you look at that and what Armstrong’s done and how he’s seemingly got away with it, it just makes his come back very hard to stomach.
Astana’s the absolute perfect team for him. He’d be renewing his old acquaintance with Bruyneel, who wanted to hire Basso last year. Will he be renewing his old acquaintance with Ferrari, the famous doctor? Will Bruyneel be taking pictures of the questioning journalists and pinning them on the side of his bus?
When Armstrong talks about transparency, this is the greatest laugh. When he talks about embracing this new transparency … I’m really looking forward to that. I’m really looking forward to my first interview request with him and seeing how that comes back. Because that would really make it interesting.
This guy, any other way but his bullying and intimidation wrapped up in this great cloak, the great cancer martyr … this is what he hides behind all the time. The great man who conquered cancer. Well he is the cancer in this sport. And for two years this sport has been in remission. And now the cancer’s back."
My thoughts exactly...Contador desperately needs the stuff he's on at Astana. Are the other teams capable of getting him the same stuff? Of course some dope but not as good as the one Astana use (or will be using). Contador just really come out of nowhere to be the greatest cyclist in our time, considering he's just 25 - that IMO shows that he's on one hell of a dope.Ullefan said:
And I believe Contador won't take the risk of getting busted by leaving Astana. Besides, which team would have the money to buy him out of his contract with Astana?
Caisse would probably have a hard time justifying another million-dollar-rider to the side of Valverde who is in my opinion a much more valuable rider than Contador.
CSC won't need him, they have the Schlecks and Cancellara.
Cervelo doesn't have that kind of needs or the money.
Euskatel, are you kidding me?
Liquigas has neither the money or interest since they already signed Basso.
The new Tinkoff might have the money, so that's the only possibility in my opinion. You have to take into consideration the sum that has to be paid to Astana for them to sell Contador.
So maybe it's best if Bertie stays at Astana and either hopes that Armstrong won't be in Tour shape or then concentrates on the Giro and Vuelta. Anyway he has still many Tours left in him.
Rolfrae said:
Rolf : thanks for this.
Paul was on Newstalk 106 over here, this morning.
Paul was being interviewed about Armstrongs intention to comeback.
Kimmage spoke at length about the amrstrongs announcement.
He said that it was bad for the sport and that whatever progress the sport had made to clean up it's act since 2005/2006, the sport would suffer with
the re-instatement of a rider connected with 1999-2006 period.
Kimmage offered the view that even with Armstrong's pledge to allow testing of his samples during his comeback, Kimmage said that Armstrong failed to address the fact that 6 separate samples from the 1999 TDF contained rEPO.
Kimmage suggested that Armstrong address how his six separate samples managed to contain rEPO, instead of trying to re-write history by offering to have current samples tested.
As Kimmage correctly said, Armstrong was ahead of the dope testers in 1999 - perhaps he is still ahead?
Afterall, THG would not have been uncovered if it not for a commercial dispute, Kimmage said.
When asked about the theory that this comeback would raise cancer awareness - Kimmage said that he questioned the comeback from the perspective of a sports fan, and not a cancer viewpoint.
Kimmage said that as a former rider and as a cycling fan, he believed that the sport needed to put as much distance as possible between it and Armstrong.
Kimmage said that he resented his sport being abused by a cheat.
Wow good words from Kimmage. What would we do if next year Levi, Armstrong and Contador all ride off the front of the peleton and win stages by 8 minutes ? I think there would be a mass protest !Rolfrae said:
I guess the question is that Armstrong has said he won't respond to any questions in regards to doping and that Catlin will deal with all of that. So how is he going to dope with Catlin doing the tests ?
I saw Armstrong ride Paris-Nice and Flanders in 2005 and he looked woeful...... ie I think he was riding clean and he was bad.......
limerickman said:
A couple of years ago there was a plan for Astana to split into two teams but with Jan being hounded by the press the plan never really came together and Kloden , Kessler etc rode for Vino.
Jan has been approached, that much I know, it is still unclear if the deal is done. All I can get it that "it is a good possibility" that he will ride in 2009.
I expect he will be training in South Africa in December and in Majorca in preparation, on a Trek bike.
Either way a lot of media will howl, some fans will screech, Trek sales will go up and we will watch with interest if only liken to staring at a train wreck.
btw: Anyone heard from cyclingheros. I would love to get his take on all of this.
whiteboytrash said:
Gene doping? We had a conference here about a year ago and some kind of a specialist from that conference predicted that gene doping would be widely used in less than a year. Well a year has passed. I haven't heard anything new about gene doping in the past year so what's the situation on that front? Could Lance (and CSC) use that?
The guys entire claim to fame ,was riding the TDF.
Its rather pathetic that the only real recognition that he can get from the TDF, requires him to come out of retirement and have to pedal 3,000+ kms.
All of the great riders, after they retired, were warmly invited back to the TDF to participate.
They presented jerseys to stage winners, were in sponsors cars, did commentary etc.
The nearest Armstrong can get to the race is by having to pedal it.
Speaks volumes.
I don't buy his excuse about raising cancer awareness.
Its rather pathetic that the only real recognition that he can get from the TDF, requires him to come out of retirement and have to pedal 3,000+ kms.
All of the great riders, after they retired, were warmly invited back to the TDF to participate.
They presented jerseys to stage winners, were in sponsors cars, did commentary etc.
The nearest Armstrong can get to the race is by having to pedal it.
Speaks volumes.
I don't buy his excuse about raising cancer awareness.
From somewhere:RdBiker said:
During his New York press conference, Lance Armstrong confirmed that Don Catlin will conduct his anti-doping programme.
Catlin founded the Olympic Analytical Lab at the University of Los Angeles and is at the forefront of the anti-doping movement.
He is widely respected and has an impressive CV when it comes to the fight against doping as this article on the USA Today website shows.
But what does that mean for Rasmus Damsgaard's programme at Astana?
Will Damsgaard continue to monitor the team? Or will Damsgaard monitor everyone but Lance?
Armstrong says his blood test results will be published on his own website, livestrong.com
But is that transparency?
Transparency does not mean hiring your own film crew, it means being open to all sections of the press, even the ones you do not like or agree with.
As soon as you pay a penny to the media, that is not journalism, it is PR. [/font]
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