Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

[VeloFlash]

11-1-5 4:38 AM in this thread! Check it out!
-Leimericman

"<snip>....I have two contacts in the current peloton and I can tell you that not all pros are dopeurs.
These sources are impeccable people and I have no reason to distrust their words." <snip>

***** Voet, the Festina soigneur, claimed in his book that only 95% of the peloton are on illegal drugs.

The clean riders are known throughout the peloton and, according to Voet, have no chance of making the final podium in a multi stage race.

Limerickman's sources are in accordance with Voet's claim.

 

[Flyer]

You'll never get a sales job at FibroGen---or at Pfizer or Bristol Meyers Squib either with that attitude.

And why are Pharmaceutical Companies hiring ex-athletes to pitch drugs? The lates OAB (over-active-bladder) by Mary Lou Rettin. It's all about the money!

And apparently, most elite athlete don't agree with you, because they're doping to the gills based upon their unique targeted goals. (just survival for most)

What you and I think are not important, only what young men and women do to 'win-at-all-cost' or to 'get-a-job-in-pro-sport'.

They dope.

We need to lower the demands for the game and lesses the doping advantages.

This idea is offered as a constructive suggestion for change.

David Millar admited using EPO in his ITT win in the 2003 Worlds and his title was taken away! I think! If I remember correctly.

He admited using in 2001 and 2003 he denied using in the final ITT of the TDF where he beat LA but one of his mates said he was doped!

Here are Millars World ITT times.

2001 Road World Championships - Results​

Lisbon - Portugal: 9 – 14, 2001​

Jan Ullrich (Ger-Tel) 51.49.99
David Millar (GBr-Cof) 6.30 (with EPO)
Santiago Botero Echeverry (Col-Kel) 11.73
Levi Leipheimer (Usa-Usp) 24,70
Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun-Map) 1.00.38
Leif Hoste (Bel-Dff) 1.04.28
Santos González Capilla (Spa-Onc) 1.26.55
Nathan O'Neill (Aus-Pan) 1.28.88
David Plaza Romero (Spa-Fes) 1.45,77
Michael Blaudzun (Den-Cst) 1.51.39





2002 Road World Championships - Results

Hasselt-Zolder, Belgium, October 8-13, 2002

Santiago Botero Echeverry (Col) 48.08.45 Michael Rich (Ger) 08.23Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) 17.15 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun) 25.53 Uwe Peschel (Ger) 33.76David Millar (GBr) 35.32 (without EPO)Aitor Gonzalez Jimenez (Spa) 1.04.03 Michael Rogers (Aus) 1.06.34 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) 1.07.81 Raivis Belohvosciks (Lat) 1.15.4240 seconds over 40 km difference on Botero! Give or take!-David Millar

"There aren't drugs that do what Lance is doing. Lance could be on all the drugs in the world, but they don't do that. I know they don't do that. He's a force of nature."

"I know who does and doesn't and I know what doping does and doesn't do, and there are no miracle products. It doesn't make a donkey into a thoroughbred."


If you haven´t used it how do you know what it does to an elite athlete?

 

[Flyer]

House go underground!

The coach is nervous about his contract renewal.

He ought to be.

Tajano, check your private messages

 

[snyper0311]

Well now! Here is the pot calling the kettle black!

However, I did drink coffee before most morning races.


Well, what substance is in coffee- is it cafine??????



Taking stuff to 'finish a race' is NOT considered doping by most athletes.
I consider it doping.
You'll need to learn what 'stuff' means.

As you state in ALL of your posts, if it's on the banned list, it's doping!

Way to preach-DOPER!

According to your own posts on this site, you use performance enhancers!

And now, if you can see how obserd this sounds, then you now see how ALL of your posts sound!

 

[Tejano]

***** Voet, the Festina soigneur, claimed in his book that only 95% of the peloton are on illegal drugs.

The clean riders are known throughout the peloton and, according to Voet, have no chance of making the final podium in a multi stage race.

Limerickman's sources are in accordance with Voet's claim.

When was the book first published? And during what years is the quote refering to?

 

[Tejano]

And apparently, most elite athlete don't agree with you, because they're doping to the gills based upon their unique targeted goals. (just survival for most)

Give me anecdotal or statistical support for your claims because I´m not interested in your opinion!

But I do agree with you that absolutly not all elite athletes are doping!

Just because your paranoid doesn´t mean all cyclists are doped!

 

[Dead Star]

lol, I would've thought you'd know better as you're from Spain.

 

[Mansmind]

Well now! Here is the pot calling the kettle black!

However, I did drink coffee before most morning races.


Well, what substance is in coffee- is it cafine??????



Taking stuff to 'finish a race' is NOT considered doping by most athletes.
I consider it doping.
You'll need to learn what 'stuff' means.

As you state in ALL of your posts, if it's on the banned list, it's doping!

Way to preach-DOPER!

According to your own posts on this site, you use performance enhancers!

And now, if you can see how obserd this sounds, then you now see how ALL of your posts sound!

I realize caffiene is a no no, but isn't that limited to taking caffiene pills? I admit I have no idea, I don't keep up with it.....I just assumed it was.

Regardless, if drinking coffee is an "illegal doping practice", then I'll be guilty of doping almost every day of my life. That's ridiculous to stop people from drinking coffee.

John

 

[indigo_pete]

Has anyone heard of a 'secret society' which determines who 'fails' a drug test? Basically meaning that you can dope if you're on the secret societies 'good' list. However, if you make it to their bad list, doping or not, you're TOAST.

Am I paranoid?

 

[VeloFlash]

When was the book first published? And during what years is the quote refering to?

The book (English title "Breaking the Chain") appears to have been published in 2001. It covers the 20+ years of Voet being a soigneur and obviously ended in 1998 when he was arrested, tried and incarcerated for having a pharmacy load of forbidden performance enhancing drugs in his possession at a border crossing.

Here is a (long) extract of a review:

Also on Monday night on Dutch TV was an interview with Erwann Mentheour, who also recently published a book about his experiences with drugs in the peloton. He said: "You can't ride several stages without using drugs. After 3 days you are empty. The soigneur comes with vitamins and iron. Not via tablets but via injections. That is the start of doping." Mentheour is now a speaker at schools. He said: "I had 61 urine tests and never tested positive." His brother Pierre Henri said: "Every rider in the Tour de France uses banned drugs. I have seen it. How can you climb a difficult mountain in the same way as riding on a flat road? I know that there were riders who had to use their brakes on the curves at the beginning of some climbs because they were riding so fast." The Italian doctor Donati also said on the program: "They use a lot of EPO. It is dangerous for their lives now."

Voet, a former cyclist himself, quoted names which have been central to the long history of the Tour de France and explains all the devious subterfuges that the riders engaged in to avoid detection. He says the riders had condoms filled with clean (foreign) urine to use when they were asked to provide a urine sample. The condoms were put into the anus and used whenever the rider had to do a urine test. The simplest method employed to escape the controls.

As soigneur to Richard Virenque it is not surprising that he gets a lot of attention in the book. He says that the first usage by Virenque that he can document goes back to 1993 during his first year at Festina. "We were on the national Critérium. He said to me on the evening before the race while I was giving him a massage that he wanted to take some drugs. I injected him with half a ampule of Synacten on the Sunday morning, one hour before the start. He was outside the time limit and so we abandoned the use of that product from then on." He describes how Marc Madiot knew that Virenque was taking drugs.

The breadth of the doping revealed by Voet is staggering. He outlines some of the arguments that the riders employed to justify the drug taking. He said that when Pascal Herve arrived at Festina he came to ***** Voet and he said to Voet: "Listen, I am 29 years old and I have four or five years at the most to earn money as a professional. I have already told the team doctor and I say the same thing to you. I don't have any problems with using drugs and having injections. I know how the way it works. I know the system. With me, one should not raise the issue."

Voet alleges that Virenque and Herve: "played an active role in the distribution of the doping products - one as a leader, the other like his lieutenant. Since 1994, Virenque became very informed about the way to administer EPO and growth hormones. He asked many questions especially in relation to using drugs during the Tour de France. Virenque clearly knew what he was doing. To say as he does that he didn't know what was happening is scandalous insincerity. He was the leader. He was the chief and the spokesman. Nothing could be decide without consulting him. In the period leading up to the Tour when the team was in preparation he was the person who pushed the use of banned substances the most." Virenque has heard these allegations before and consistently denies them. His word against the others.

In other chapters (12 in total) he outlines how Festina would swap HGH for EPO with other teams.

Were there any clean riders? He said that Eric Caritoux won the Vuelta in 1984 without "using anything". But later he became involved in the scene. He said that in his knowledge that Charly Mottet and Gilles Delion were against using drugs. But as a consequence, Mottet never had the success that he could have had if he had have used drugs. He said that the peloton used to laugh at Delion when he used to open his suitcase up with all the herbs.

He talks about Sean Kelly. He says: "He won the Tour of Lombardy three times and on at least one of times he did it with the help of a corticoide injection. Kelly was positive after Paris-Bruxelles in 1984 and that came as a surprise because he used the urine of a mechanic. But the mechanic was using banned substances himself because he had to work long hours at night and needed the lift to stay awake."

He talks about Hein Verbruggen: "He was one of the people who made necessary arrangements to ensure that the doping scandal surrounding Laurent Brochard during the 1997 World Championships in San Sebastian never became public.The doctors made a statement that Brochard was positive to Lidocaim when he was tested at the end of the race. But the statements was delayed and outside the time limit."

He talks about the World Championships in 1994 in Sicily (Agrigento). Luc Leblanc took gold and Virenque got the bronze. He says: "After this excellent outcome for the French team, they all went out to celebrate. To be sure that the party stayed high all night all of them took something from the 'Pot Belge'. For Leblanc it was the first time he had taken any amphetamines. The following year, in Colombia, the team did not perform as well but even so they still had a wild party afterwards. - he never used till that moment any amfetamines - this was his first time. Their Colombian driver arranged cocaine and the riders used it (lines sniffed with a dollar bill).

At the end of his book, Voet draws up a macabre list of runners who have died early in life from heart attacks. He lists the Spaniard Vicente Lopez-Carril, who died at the age of 37; the Belgian Marc Demeyer, died at 32 years; the Belgian Geert Van de Walle, died at the age of 24 years; the Dutchman Bert Oosterbosch, died at 32 years; the Pole Joaquim Halupczok, died at 26 years, and so on. He says it is impossible to prove but the questions about the association between these early deaths and the drugs taken while racing have to be asked.

He talks about the deceased rider Bert Oosterbosch and the 1982 Grand Prix des Nations. Oosterbosch came in 18th at more than 2.5 minutes behind the winner Bernard Hinault even though he was favoured to take a podium place. The press of the day talked about his bad tactics going to slow at the beginning and then having too much left at the end. The truth was simpler than that. He said: "Oosterbosch was flat from the start due to the Synacten he had taken. The drugs initially blocked his ability to work hard. An hour after the injection it started working as planned and his tempo increased."

 

[snyper0311]

According to Flyers previous posts, it doesn't matter how it gets into your system. If it's in your system, then it's there for performance purposes and thus, illegal. A cup of coffee is strictly for performance enhancement and can not be used at all. If it is, then you are doping.

See, that's my point about his posts. EVERYONE who rides a bike, uses an illegal substance of some sort. Be it coffee or the weight loss supliments used to shed unwanted pounds, EVERYONE is on something.

 

[gntlmn]

I realize caffiene is a no no, but isn't that limited to taking caffiene pills? I admit I have no idea, I don't keep up with it.....I just assumed it was.

Regardless, if drinking coffee is an "illegal doping practice", then I'll be guilty of doping almost every day of my life. That's ridiculous to stop people from drinking coffee.

John

I got one of those digital readout bp testers recently from Walmart. They don't cost much. Then I tested my bp regularly in it's normal state and then when I drank regularly caffeinated coffee. My normal bp is around 105 to 112/55 or so. On coffee, it's about 120/60. Clearly, the coffee poses a mild health risk on my bp. If you do this test yourself and see this increase, you might stop drinking coffee cold turkey too, like I did. Sometimes even something done by all is not as benign as it sounds.

 

[Flyer]

And it's a coffee pot.

Guilty as charged. And your inescapable point is that 1) only dopers know dope, yet are untrustworthy cheaters AND 2) non-dopers don't know dope and therefore cannot be trusted either. Circular and foolproof discrediting.

I should have used coffee at the tack---where the format is aggressive followed by static followed by aggressive----and on and on 4-5 times until they kill the lights and throw you out onto the parking lot.

btw: Do you know how many coffee bag Primes I have won over the years? Enough to dope 100 riders.


Stimulents, caffeine included would be very beneficial for performance in such a venue.

Da! No wonder track racers are known to use drugs.
Including the latest 2004 Australian Junior World Champ---stimulants & a DQ. Mark French is yet another, Horse Growth Hormones. Olympic ban.

Well now! Here is the pot calling the kettle black!

However, I did drink coffee before most morning races.


Well, what substance is in coffee- is it cafine??????



Taking stuff to 'finish a race' is NOT considered doping by most athletes.
I consider it doping.
You'll need to learn what 'stuff' means.

As you state in ALL of your posts, if it's on the banned list, it's doping!

Way to preach-DOPER!

According to your own posts on this site, you use performance enhancers!

And now, if you can see how obserd this sounds, then you now see how ALL of your posts sound!

 

[Flyer]

If they roll out to race a 21 day Grand Tour entitled the Tour de France---they are doped--and will stay doped for July.

My fear of the truth vrs your delusion? It's a fair trade cause delusion is often a peaceful place.

Give me anecdotal or statistical support for your claims because I´m not interested in your opinion!

But I do agree with you that absolutly not all elite athletes are doping!

Just because your paranoid doesn´t mean all cyclists are doped!

 

[Flyer]

No. Fair question.

The TDF won't embarrass their show with a dirty doping control positive. TUE forms are accepted post test result, just ask Lance.

But, otherwise no. The Giro bounced out Marco Pantani when the TDF would not.

They bouced out Simoni for 'stimulents' later coverup as Grandmum's Colombian chocolate.

Filippo Simeoni is on Lance Armstrong and Michele Ferarri's **** list for admitting to Ferrari's doping advice; EPO, hGH, insulin, DHEA, etc.... Even Danilo Nardello dissed Simeoni and yet; HE NEVER TESTED POSITIVE FOR DRUGS.

The secret society is really the PROMOTER with UCI to back them up. Hein don't get paid the big bucks without doing some tackling and downfield blocking.

Has anyone heard of a 'secret society' which determines who 'fails' a drug test? Basically meaning that you can dope if you're on the secret societies 'good' list. However, if you make it to their bad list, doping or not, you're TOAST.

Am I paranoid?

 

[Mansmind]

I got one of those digital readout bp testers recently from Walmart. They don't cost much. Then I tested my bp regularly in it's normal state and then when I drank regularly caffeinated coffee. My normal bp is around 105 to 112/55 or so. On coffee, it's about 120/60. Clearly, the coffee poses a mild health risk on my bp. If you do this test yourself and see this increase, you might stop drinking coffee cold turkey too, like I did. Sometimes even something done by all is not as benign as it sounds.

Yes, I realize there are some health reasons for not drinking coffee. Of the vices I've lived through and conquered in my life thusfar however, coffee is the least one. Actually I have given it up for periods in my life, usually drinking tea instead, but when it comes down to it... I just enjoy my cup of coffee in the mornings. Congrats to you for giving it up.

Perhaps I may too at some point, but I'm not working too hard toward that goal at the moment.

I still find it amazing that drinking a caffienated drink is considered doping in professional cycling however. I recall watching part of one race recently in which a rider asked for a coca-cola (reportedly wanting the sugar in it). So this guy was cheating? I guess it seems to me that if so, this is going a little far.

I can understand blood transfusions, growth hormones, etc. being taboo....but drinking a cup of coffee? Do we really expect these guys to forgo something so many of us "regular humans" do on a daily basis? I realize I could get much flame on the previous sentence, but come on guys...coffee?

John

 

[House]

If they roll out to race a 21 day Grand Tour entitled the Tour de France---they are doped--and will stay doped for July.

My fear of the truth vrs your delusion? It's a fair trade cause delusion is often a peaceful place.

See what I was saying Tejano? When he says something it's "truth," anything else is "delusional."

 

[Flyer]

To be CLEAR: Caffeine is allowable---at a low dosage. (10+ cups or something) Depends on your weight/mass etc...

So too with any drug. EPO to HBOCs, to insulin to catabolics (anti-imflammatories)

That's some of the paradox. Enforcement is not technically possible and that is why 100% can dope, but only a very few are caught. David Millar was NOT caught by dope control. Neither was Mark French or Philippe Gaumont or Robert Sassone.

Tyler Hamilton was a huge EXCEPION to this rule.
Oscar Camenzind too (1998 World Road Champ)

Zulle never went positive and he was the leader of the 1998 Festina Team and finished 2nd to Lance Armstrong in the 1999 TDF.

Coffe is the least of my concerns---although Green Tea is the healthier choice---I do freely admit.

Yes, I realize there are some health reasons for not drinking coffee. Of the vices I've lived through and conquered in my life thusfar however, coffee is the least one. Actually I have given it up for periods in my life, usually drinking tea instead, but when it comes down to it... I just enjoy my cup of coffee in the mornings. Congrats to you for giving it up.

Perhaps I may too at some point, but I'm not working too hard toward that goal at the moment.

I still find it amazing that drinking a caffienated drink is considered doping in professional cycling however. I recall watching part of one race recently in which a rider asked for a coca-cola (reportedly wanting the sugar in it). So this guy was cheating? I guess it seems to me that if so, this is going a little far.

I can understand blood transfusions, growth hormones, etc. being taboo....but drinking a cup of coffee? Do we really expect these guys to forgo something so many of us "regular humans" do on a daily basis? I realize I could get much flame on the previous sentence, but come on guys...coffee?

John

 

[Flyer]

You coach people in clinical delusion then?

That you are qualified to do. I'll grant you that.

See what I was saying Tejano? When he says something it's "truth," anything else is "delusional."

 

[Mansmind]

To be CLEAR: Caffeine is allowable---at a low dosage. (10+ cups or something) Depends on your weight/mass etc...

So too with any drug. EPO to HBOCs, to insulin to catabolics (anti-imflammatories)

That's some of the paradox. Enforcement is not technically possible and that is why 100% can dope, but only a very few are caught. David Millar was NOT caught by dope control. Neither was Mark French or Philippe Gaumont or Robert Sassone.

Tyler Hamilton was a huge EXCEPION to this rule.
Oscar Camenzind too (1998 World Road Champ)

Zulle never went positive and he was the leader of the 1998 Festina Team and finished 2nd to Lance Armstrong in the 1999 TDF.

Coffe is the least of my concerns---although Green Tea is the healthier choice---I do freely admit.

Okay..thanks for the clarification.. 10 cups, well, that's a lot of coffee.