Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by TiMan, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

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    That is an interesting question.....A month a go there was a big hype in Europe, because a football player of Parma was shown inserting a drip into his arm which his lawyer confirmed contained Neoton, a drug used in cardiac surgery to protect the heart that is not on the World Anti Doping Agency's list of banned substances.

    So the question is this doping........I thought the minister (dunno of what) from italy said something like it is not ethical.......jep but is it illegal?

     


  2. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    The list of prohibited substances includes specific substances and methods but also includes catch-all phrases like, "included but not limited to" and "other substances with similar chemical structure or biological effect" and a substance or method that "artificially enhances the uptake, transfer or delivery of oxygen."

    Although there may not be a test in place to recognise the presence of "Neoton" in the athlete's sample, if the athlete admits to using that drug or it is found in his possession and it has performance enhancing benefits then the athlete is in breach of the rules without failing a drug test.
     
  3. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

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    Oke....maybe they have less strict rules then in cycling, because he isn't fired.

    Here is full article:

    Cannavaro the target in Italy's latest drugs row


    By James Eve

    ROME, April 28 (Reuters) - Italian football faces a new drugs row after state broadcaster RAI showed a film in which Juventus and former Parma defender Fabio Cannavaro is seen using a drip on the eve of the 1999 UEFA Cup final.

    The film, shown on RAI two's current affairs programme "Full Stop and From the Top", shows Cannavaro, then a Parma player, relaxing in his hotel room the evening before the UEFA Cup final against Olympique Marseille which the Italian club won 3-0.

    The Italian international is shown inserting a drip into his arm which his lawyer confirmed contained Neoton, a drug used in cardiac surgery to protect the heart that is not on the World Anti Doping Agency's list of banned substances.

    Earlier in the day the player sent a warning to RAI that he would take legal action if they accused him of doing anything illegal.

    Cannavaro did not take part in the programme but his lawyer Paolo Trofino formed part of the panel that discussed the film after it had been broadcast.

    "Neoton helps to regenerate muscle and it is not on the banned list," Trofino said.

    "We were concerned about the damage it might do to his image. If you go into a player's room the night before a big match and you see him with a drip, obviously that's going to be a shocking image. People might jump to conclusions."

    Though Neoton is not banned, its associations with the long-running Juventus doping trial is unlikely to do much for Cannavaro's image.

    Last year former World Footballer of the Year Zinedine Zidane told the judge conducting the trial he had taken the drug to cope with a heavy playing schedule during his time at Juventus between 1996 and 2001.

    Cannavaro's team mate Lilian Thuram, who also played alongside him at Parma, said the film had been made by the players as a joke but would be misinterpreted by viewers.

    "It creates an image of players that dope themselves up before each match," he said.

    "We often play around with video cameras in the dressing rooms, but certain things are seen differently from the outside.

    "Unfortunately we live in a world where people try to dirty and destroy even the little that remains clean. A player who has given so much to football and to the Italian national team deserves respect."



     
  4. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    More unfortunate is that we live in a commercially funded world where 1) performance is required, 2) playing hurt is demanded 3) doping is needed 4) secrecy required 5) cover-stories feed daily in the media to promote the illusion of 'Corinthean clean sport'

    If their lips are moving, they're lying.



     
  5. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    If Association Football (soccer) is a signatory to WADA it lives by the same anti doping rules as cycling.

    The technicality here is that the player did not admit to taking the substance. It was his doctor. Anti doping rules admit as evidence to doping admissions only by the athletes.

    At the Sydney Olympics 2000 the winner of the 200m women's butterfly event was a swimmer from USA. Recently, the USA team doctor admitted by oversight she was on a substance that had recently been removed from the banned list. No action could be taken as it was not her admission.
     
  6. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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    -Leimerickman said this! 100% my ass!

    "I have it on good authority that several of the current top men in cycling do not dope.
    What do I mean by do not dope ?
    I mean that they do not go near EPO or HGH.
    I can name them and if you look at their cycling palmares you will see cyclists who have been consistent performers throughout."
     
  7. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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    At the age of 23 LA was twice, wait three times, the rider Induarin was! Have you read my posts! Indurain was crap! Where was his engine?

    He had a solid year in 1998 but by now means huge! In the 1999 TDF he beat a severly weakend field! Zulle lost somthing like 6 minutes in an early stage due to a crash and lost the overall by 7 minutes! Do you call that dominate? Sounds more like progress, the slow and steady kind!

    You remind me of David Walsh the way you use the language to create an illusion of the truth and then pawn it off on the weak and faithess.

    Here is what some of your heros had to say....

    -July 18, 2000

    In today's edition of L'Equipe, several former tour winners, stage winners, and high general classification riders from the past were asked to comment on the "phenomenon" of the metamorphosis of Lance's superior climbing ability, seen for the first time last year in Sestrières. Here are some excerpts from what some of them said:



    -Cyrille Guimard, winner of seven stages in the 70s:

    "His metamorphosis is linked to his illness, even taking into account that one knew when he became world champion in Oslo at 21 years old that you were dealing with a supertalented athlete. ... I don't know why anyone is astonished because Merckx or Hinault had had leads that were bigger. Lance will dominate but not crush the Tour."



    -Bernard Hinault, Tour champion in 1978, 1979, 1981, 1982, and 1985:

    "His cadence is normal, oscillating between 90 and 120 rotations per minute in the mountains, the norm for all of the riders. ... Those who doubt his natural abilities drive me crazy. They forget where he's been. ... And then, he's lost more than 20 pounds. In the mountains, that's considerable. In the days when Miguel Indurain lost eight pounds, he won the Tour de France."



    -Charley Mottet, fourth place in 1987:

    "At Hautacam, he benefited from the detestable weather conditions that day. In cold weather, most cyclists compensate for their muscle stiffness by changing their gearing. Those who suffer the least in the cold, leave things as usual, which at the end of the day, makes the difference. Armstrong's superiority comes from: 1) his resistance to the cold; 2) his muscle quality; 3) his great capacity to pedal smoothly even in bad weather. All of this together makes him extraordinary. And, one must remember that Lance began as a triathlete where he had to ride after swimming in cold water. Triathlon placed him in the position of handling variations in temperature and sudden changes in rhythm."



    -Raymond Pulidor, second place in 1964, 1965 and 1974:

    "At Hautacam, he gave an extraordinary impression! Something never seen! Merckx himself never had this ease. He climbed with force, grimacing. ... One didn't have the same sensations watching the climbers in the old days; it seemed they rode more slowly, but the roads weren't as fast. ... So, compare what is comparable. There is a systematic suspicion around Armstrong. I find this regrettable. One forgets that he works more seriously than the others, that he diets, that he lost 20 pounds."



    -Laurent Fignon, winner in 1983 and 1984:

    "Everything comes from training, from education. Armstrong prepares in a very rational way. He works harder and better than the others. From an athletic point of view, Ullrich also has great qualities, if not better, but he never controls his weight. That's a waste. And the result is there."



    -Lucien Van Impe, winner in 1976:

    "It proves that an athlete perfectly trained, who has character, can go in the mountains with the pure climbers. Now, it is possible that on the other hand, he has lost some of his ability in the time trial which we will see between Fribourg and Mulhouse (Friday's stage)."



    -Hennie Kuiper, second place in 1977:

    "Armstrong is fantastic. He knows how to pedal better than anyone, combining strength and flexibility. Ullrich goes up the climbs like Indurain or Hinault. Armstrong offers a good compromise between the complete riders and the pure climbers like Van Impe and Pantani, that which places him well above the others."




    - Miguel Indurain July 2002: On Armstrong´s recovery from cancer.
    "What is clear is that the cancer changed his mentality. It even changed his character - before he was rather reckless and now he is more measured and calm. But before, just like now, he had great quality and was a born winner."




    - Eddie Merckx July 2002: On cancer changing Armstrong.
    "Before his illness, Lance was talented, he'd won the world championship at the age of 21, but as a climber he struggled,"

    ".. . It was down to his illness that he turned into a great climber....Cancer made him much stronger physically, and, more importantly, stronger mentally. He saw death staring him right in the face."

    "I went to Texas to see Lance. He went out on his bike for the first time since his illness, and I was there with him. His head was shaved, and he had two big scars at the back of his neck. It was only three weeks after his operation, and you could see he was still exhausted, but he wanted so much to get back on his bike."


    Those are some big names proliferating the "Urban Myth"

     
  8. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

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    I also don't think that everyone is doping........but you can go on and on about this but Flyer won't give in nor you (you shouldn't, good that youre positive:) ). It is an ugly side of cycling, but cycling isn't the only sport that does it. And it won't end if Lance gets caught or other cyclists (I know Flyer they will never get caught still get all the money blalala.......heres a thought: THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR). In business, in politics and I can go on and on.....people cheating on each other......IT ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD!!! Just deal with it that the dreamworld doesn't exist.......and if you know so much go to WADA, UCI, USADA call them endlessly....and tell them what you know. Then again they won't listen, because what they do is lie too.......what do oil companies do....what do politians do. What does youre president do: Bush biggest lyer of them all.........you want to change the sport do something usefull instead of endlessly debating doping. I know there is doping....but to me it is no way the end of the world. (aaargh sorry couldn't resist Tejano.......RESPECT if you want to go on about it).

    Still the questions and still unanswered.......amazing that basso lost so much time? Di Luca that good? Can Delli hold on? Will Lampre attack? 10 out of 10 if you can answer those questions Flyer.

    I want to end positive: Tejano good for sticking with youre hero's, also good to here the other side instead of a onesided discussion.

    Gr, MJtje for non-lying president, non-lying pope, non-lying whatever........never heard of that....lyers in all layers of the population. deal with it!!!



     
  9. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    And can you name any on your list that were known to be clean?

    Only one - Charlie Mottet who could only manage fourth palce in 1987. Willy Voet said Mottet could never win a grand tour because he was one of the only few riders who never took drugs.

    As for the others, its a case of ducks fly with ducks, geese fly with geese.
     
  10. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    Tejano:

    Can you explain to me why the vast majority of the peloton are asthmatics and require Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) for asthmatic drugs? The incidence of asthmatics in the peloton is a multiple of the incidence in the general polulation.

    Lance Armstrong has been reported to have anti asthma drugs listed on his TUE. I have read his books and I cannot recall that he stated he was an asthmatic.

    Here is a quote from an interview in December 2001 with a Dr Barrios. He was Pedro Delgado and Miguel Indurain's doctor. He also worked with US Postal Service:

    "Barrios said that he felt, after 20 years of work in pro sport, that it was no longer possible to 'win medals without resorting to special medicines.'"

    and

    "He also said he found it strange that certain products that are permitted, such as salbutamol in inhalers used by asthmatics, because of the clear performance advantages they give athletes. 'It has been shown that [salbutamol] can increase muscle volume by up to 50%,' he said. 'Curiously, there are increasing numbers of asthmatics winning medals.'"

    It has also been reported that certain asthmatic medicines act as masking agents for other drugs. As long as you can provide a doctor's certificate that you are in need of asthma drugs it can be entered on your TUE and be used legally.
     
  11. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Then your 'arse' is grass Daddio. The AIS nearly foldered in July 2004---and almost missed out on the Athens Games. What a loss that would have been.

    Limerickman will not defend you, nor your position either.

    Your AIS alumni list better not include World Champions such as Mark French, Sean Eadie, Shane Perkins and five (5) other 'gold medal potential juniors, that Mark French ratted out in secret.

    And rocketship Bradley McGee suffers from a blood chemistry condition requiring constant medical attention---not too different than Michele Ferrari clients when you think about it.

    Australia offers up the greatest numbers of track cyclists--and pursuiters.

    When the senior mens team can run a 3:56 4,000 meter time and Brad McGee can do a 4:17 solo---that defies logic.

    Chew on some more of your 'organic gum' laced with LSD. No way your boys are clean.

    btw: Mark French uses "equine Growth Hormones" for a better 'kick' I suppose. Horses are faster than humans.



     
  12. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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  13. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

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    Sorry Tejano I'm no hero-woreshipper myself. I just thought so in the way you were defending armstrong:) As for youre question I just don't no if he is a doper.....and don't care. In light of doping cases in the past I wouldn't be surprised on the other hand.......I could be wrong. We just don't know. A 10-year commitment to ferrari is somewhat suspicious, however not conclusive. Same as the other facts thrown around..........to me the discussion is dead. But it is good that you have the (positive) energy to constantly disagree with Flyer........always better then just a onesided discussion!



     
  14. lumpy

    lumpy New Member

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    I'm not sure I would call doping cheating anymore. With the incredible availability of these products, anyone can have an edge and it seems most do. I think it's simply human nature to look for an edge over the competition. It's an evolutionary advantage. Like pursuing the perfect performance diet, and training regimen, which Lance has clearly done better than any other rider, any other edge is desireable.

    As for Lance, well, the cancer essentially allowed him to start building his body and train all over again, but this time with the knowledge of what it takes to be the strongest rider. Like the the old saying goes, "If I only knew then what I know now", Lance literally got a new lease on life - and cycling.

    I am tired of the constant accusations thrown about regarding doping. It seems anytime a cyclists performance is particularly good, or bad, doping is accused.
     
  15. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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    I pull up some stats later but if you look at the stats there is really no need for LA to dope! He is just that much better than the rest! He spends a lot of time and money in any and all legal means to be the best! And quite simply said, that´s enough! The stats say it, other riders say it, guy´s in the industry say it, every where you look it´s out there!

    I´ll pull up some very interesting stats in a little bit!
     
  16. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    I'll grant you that Lance's judgment is the best re: blood doping.

    That is exactly why Lance spent 10 years working with a corrupt, lying, cheating doper doctor. Lance wanted the 'best oxygen capacity' and he got it.

    Following Rominger and Berzin, Lance has been a great project for Ferrari.

    Lance knows a good blood chemistry guru when he sees one.

    If Lance were 100% legal, 1) he would never place in the top 80 in any race 2) he would not associate with corrupted doctors like Ferrari 3) he would not admit to having non-clinically approved drugs on his team (December 2000) 4) he would not have former employees implying he is a liar 5) have Greg Lemond openly claim that Lance has a 'secret' 6) have former teammates who also got sick---but did not recover as he did (his chief claim to new fame)



     
  17. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    And I am tired that these so-called super heros (aka Gladiators) keep heaping lie upon lie on the fans.

    Denial followed by scandal followed by a cover story followed by more ugly disclosure followed by another death, followed by debates in Congress & Paliament.

    It won't stop---ever. The addiction, the pathalogical lying, the deceit and the doping.

    Bottom line; Illegal drugs work in the short run.

    Long-term everyone is dead.



     
  18. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    Flyer, you've made a tremendous number of statements. Most of them I've been able to find sources to verify on my own, but a few others not. I'm hoping you can steer me to your sources for these claims from your posts. I know they must be out there somewhere, but Google does have it's limitations :) :

    "Laurent Fignon believes that in 1990, EPO became standard medicine amongst GC contenders"

    "Francesco Conconi, the ... mastermind of the Team USA 1984 Olympic blood transfusions"

    "On or about November 1994, Eddy Merckx introduced Lance to Michele Ferrari"

    "Jacques Aquetil ... said that Tom Simpson died because he did not use enough drugs!"

    "Lots of doping proof on Jan as well."



    Also, I'm hoping you can shed more light on Chris Carmichael, how he fits in all this, his background, career history, etc. All I've read is that he was an alternate on the 1984 olympic team, rode briefly for 7-11, has coached the US National team, and has coached Lance. It would be interesting when you have time, to have a post from you telling about his career, and his other connections.

    Also, thinking of that 7-11 team, what of Eric Heiden, now Dr. Eric Heiden? Here is someone who had so much going off the bike that he literally didn't need to give in to doping to make a living. Was he doping as a skater? Was he doping as a cyclist? Do you know if he's ever spoken out on the topic of doping in sports?

    Also, I'm confused about LeMond. On the one hand, you've listed Andy Hampsten and Charlie Mottet as the only two clean riders of that era, which implied LeMond was not, yet on the other hand, you seem to imply he's "clean". Which is it?

    As for Hampsten, I'm similarly confused. On the one hand, you say it's physically impossible to make it through a Grand Tour without doping -- that after 3 days, recovery to stay with the peloton is simply not possible without aid. And that at the elite level, there is very, very little difference between the riders, that they're all genetic freaks. Yet on the other hand, you suggest the doping provides 10%-15% performance. That seems to suggest Hampsten could not be clean and come anywhere near hanging on to the back of the peloton, much less climbing off the front, showing stronger on a couple alpine stages than even the 5-time Tour winner Bernard Hinault and 3-time winner LeMond, and finishing just off the podium. Also, if it turns out you think LeMond was clean, then I'm having a tough time getting this apparent contradiction to square up.

    And one last question (for now), I've found several stories with comment from Greg Strock. But I've not found anything with claims/accusations from Erich Kaiter, Gerrik Latta and David Francis, who you say all have gone on the record corroborating Strock's claims. Can you steer me to where I find documentation on that?

    Thanks.
     
  19. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    What on earth took you so long to post?

    We have been expecting you since last years big surprise.

    Been busy?

    System U & Castorama alum can fill in some gaps in your dossier.

    Jacques Anquetil has made many such remarks re: doping prior to his pancreatic cancer death at age 53.

    So too has Luc Leblanc.

    Still there are news links to most of these items----
    All the juniors did interviews.

    btw: But the very best doping testimonies are not found online.

    I guess you can see what an open joke pro cycling has become now. As a for-profit business, all is well, as a sport it is a sad experiment!

    No wonder the biotech index has increased 20% in the past 60 days!


     
  20. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    What on earth took you so long to post?

    We have been expecting you since last years big surprise.

    Been busy?



    What on earth are you talking about? You obviously think I'm someone you've intereacted with before? I'm not. I do not want to be caught in your wars with people. I'm a person who's interested in the topic, invested a ton of time reading through a number of your lengthy threads to try and get more knowledge, and found myself with some questions and in search of additional information.


    System U & Castorama alum can fill in some gaps in your dossier.

    Jacques Anquetil has made many such remarks re: doping prior to his pancreatic cancer death at age 53.

    So too has Luc Leblanc.

    Still there are news links to most of these items----
    All the juniors did interviews.



    I don't know how I could have been much clearer -- I'm not questioning that the other jr members of Armstrong's team said what you claim, or even that they're out there online, just that I CAN'T FIND THEM AND WOULD APPRECIATE A LITTLE HELP.

    So, it's very simple. Will you be kind enough to help me find the sources I asked for or not? I realize you seem to have gotten yourself into a bunker-mode where anyone who asks a question is somehow translated into challenging your authority, knowledge or integrity, but that's NOT what this is about.

    Now ... would you like to assist or simply get beligerent and drive me out of the forum concluding there's nothing more I can learn here?
     
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