Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by TiMan, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Try these links:

    On December 18, 2000 Gerrick Latta joined in with his civil lawsuit re: tricked into illegal doping.

    That makes at least three suit including Strock & Kaiter.

    It appears a settlement was reached with Carmichael as his name remains absent--and Strcok refers to him as the 'other coach' in interviews. Only Rene Wenzel, Agnus Fraser and USCF were named.

    David Francis is not sick and ostensibly not filed.

    http://cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2002/dec02/dec18news

    and lots of doping story links at:

    http://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr/actualite/2004-04-22-lemonde.htm




     


  2. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    Try these links ...


    THANK YOU! O.k. so it looks like Latta omitted Carmichael from his suit too?

    So here we have 3 guys on that team all suing. But that article is 2002. It's three years later. I know our court system moves slowly, but shouldn't there be some kind of additional news by now? Shouldn't these guys' suits have gotten to the discovery phase by now? And shouldn't there be information from the depositions? That should be pretty explosive stuff.

    Even if, as you said in one of your posts, their lawyers sent demand letters to Carmichael, and Carmichael responded by negotiating a settlement that included some kind of confidentiality gag, their lawyers could still be asking all kinds of questions in depositions of Wenzel and Fraser that would incriminate Carmichael, if he was involved.

    Do you have any update on what's happened to these cases and why we don't have anything written more recently?

    Also ... I really would be interested to have my previous questions on Hampsten and LeMond clarified. Those guys were in my earliest intersection with cycling and racing, watching Hampsten ride for the Levis team, unafraid to challenge the Europeans all by himself, even though he had basically no team support up among the leaders.


    BTW, a simple "hey, I'm sorry, I mistook you for someone else, otherwise I wouldn't have unloaded on you like that, I apologize, and welcome to the board, we're always glad to have a new face who shares a common interest" would have been nice.
     
  3. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    You have no idea who is out there.

    And if you you are suggesting that Carmichael was not present in hotel rooms and traveled to Italy with these children and throughout the USA. It is easy to establish.

    Max Testa even confirmed Lance's first Italy trip in last month's Pro Cycling. He claimed that: 1) a desperate Carmichael called him at his Como office and asked for help with the sick kids.

    2) when Max examined a sick Lance Armstrong---Max ordered rest and no bike riding.

    The 18 year old Armstrong demanded an injection of antibiotics because he was going to win the race tomorrow, not rest. He did and he did.

    It is always telling when 18 year olds instruct 33 year old physicians on doping.

    Ya think?


     
  4. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    You have no idea who is out there.

    Yes, as I said before, I'm probably a little naive, and no, I don't have any idea what this nefarious world is all about and who's "out there". If you want, you could explain it to me. Are you suggesting you don't want to explain my questions about Hampsten's performances because you are afraid there are people out there reading this board who are out to get you and that answering my questions would expose you to some danger? I truly hope not.

    And if you you are suggesting that Carmichael was not present in hotel rooms and traveled to Italy with these children and throughout the USA. It is easy to establish.

    Enough with trying to pick a fight, ok? READ MY POST. Did I suggest or say any such thing or anything remotely like that? NO. You have constructed a strawman for yourself by putting words in my mouth. My simple question was about whether there were updates on the lawsuits since 2002, and that if Carmichael had been part of the doping, it would be almost guaranteed to come out in a routine deposition of the other doctors. It would be nuts for riders' lawyers to depose Wentzel and not ask lots of questions about who was present, who was involved, etc., etc. They'd be crazy not to try and gather every detail they possibly could about the entire web.

    Max Testa even confirmed Lance's first Italy trip in last month's Pro Cycling. He claimed that: 1) a desperate Carmichael called him at his Como office and asked for help with the sick kids.

    Well, you'll have to help me ... who is Max Testa? And where can I find his account of all this? Does Carmichael calling him to help with sick kids mean that Carmichael made them sick? Honestly, you've got to understand, some of us are very willing to condemn guilty people, but we're unwilling just to assume people guilty without at least some shred of evidence. If Carmichael was injecting these kids, I'd like to know. If there is ANY legitimate claim from anyone that that is the case, then I will personally go apeshit on OLN for putting the guy on t.v. as a face of cycling. But for now, all I know is he traveled with the team, and that for some reason he was not sued, and hasn't been claimed by anyone who was there or involved to have been involved in doping.

    2) when Max examined a sick Lance Armstrong---Max ordered rest and no bike riding.

    The 18 year old Armstrong demanded an injection of antibiotics because he was going to win the race tomorrow, not rest. He did and he did.

    It is always telling when 18 year olds instruct 33 year old physicians
    ...

    Well, actually, when I was that age, I did all kinds of incredibly stupid stuff, and I told doctors to just patch me up so I could go back on the field and play. I know you want to view every single action as a confirmation of doping, but that doesn't help your credibility. No, you don't have to be a doper to have, as an 18 year old, asked a doctor to give you anti-biotics to get you well so you could go back and play your sport.
     
  5. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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    Flyer is a lot out there! Hampsten was clean he claims! Hampsten has been quoted as saying that all but the most gifted athletes had to start using EPO or they would be passed up by the majority of the peloton! Hampsten had first hand experience competing against these doped athletes and he claimed the best of the best didn´t need the stuff to stay at the top!

    David Millar (I think) admitted to using EPO. He said he knows what the stuff does and it isn´t the explination as to why Lance has won 7 T´sDF! He said LA is a freak of nature!

    Ask Flyer about Filippo Simioni! He was a client of Dr. Ferrari but after one year he left Ferrari because he was unsatisfied with his results and his team refused to pay for his visits! This is the same Dr. Ferrari who said EPO doesn´t fundamentally change a riders performance!

    If you have a large group of riders all at a similiar level and half of them start to use EPO that half will probably be a little bit better than those not using but it will not create a Lance ARmstrong because it doesn´t fundamentally change performance, thus the eternal question.

    If Filippo Simioni was a mule on EPO (check out his palmares! not very impressive) what was Filippo Simioni before EPO! That´s a million dollar question! If this shit is so god damn powerfull what happened to poor Filippo?

    Flyer will respond a failed experiment! A truly pathetic response! LA doesn´t use EPO, HGH- He probably looks out for himself, but not even Limerickman would condemn him for that!

     
  6. kennf

    kennf New Member

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    Flyer, you've finally said something I can agree with.
     
  7. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Hey Tejano:

    Did you know Filippo Simenoi won on Sunday, in China! LA must love that. George & Filippo both winners on the same day!

    But get a friggin clue on science.

    The vast majority of experiments FAIL.

    All you novices do is discuss the winners. You forgot Evgeni Berzin & Tony Rominger though. Moser too.

    Eddie Merckx son, Axel was a Michele Ferrari patient. Even needed anti-depressants too.

    It did not work out for the #1 genes in the world!

    Dozens more athletes did not turn into grand tour champions. It is a mixed bag.

    But do not allow the facts to interfer with your illusion.

    LA & Ferrari are a miracle of science.

    Wouldn't you like to see the notes?

    Anyway--it appears Hampsten thinks doping is a major problem. He support Greg Lemond too. remember Greg & his LA EPO accusations (LA accused GL and claimed 'everyone uses it') or so says Kathy Lemond. So Lance admitted EPO use to Greg.

    More jealous lies?

    btw: LA looks out for himself with attorneys and threats to silence whistleblowers.


     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    You misunderstood!

    Long horn salute to you too!


     
  9. Tejano

    Tejano New Member

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    I don´t remember Lemonds wife reporting LA said everyone used EPO! You´ll have to show me that quote ´cause I remember something a little different.

    Here is another riddle for you! How the hell did Greg Lemond hold the record for fastest ITT in a TDF all through the damn 90´s when EPO was supposedly used by 95% of the peloton (if you believe some guy who worked for some cycling team)? GL complains how he couldn´t compete yet his record stood until was it 2002f? He road a short course a little down hill but come on! If EPO improves performance 10-15% some one should have beaten his record especially with the advances with technology, training, and nutrition during the 90´s!



     
  10. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    Good afternoon, Hermano! Flyer is one of those guys who swears that science is lightyears ahead of us common folks and then turns around and says that we can't rely on science because it is so far behind the times (in terms of testing). The way I see it, if someone can create these so called "superdrugs," then there is someone who can detect that same drug.

    Look at the internet. Someone came out with this great invention of mass media. Next thing you know, someone's making viruses that can wipe out your computer from half world away. A day later, someone came up with "anti virus" programs. If we can protect mass media that way, wh sure as hell can protect human life in the same manner!
     
  11. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

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    Lemond also used according to Flyer........everyone uses........cause he knows.........

     
  12. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    The key element of delusion for doping apologists is to not 'get out much' and never read the newspapers either.

    Instead, watch only TV commercials featuring false themes, that is the key to being ignorant.

    Whenever anyone points out the thruth---shoot them or attempt to discredit them--or call them bad names, whichever is easiest.

    Read LA Confidential---it is all there. Including Emma O'Reily expaining the lie that was the backdated TUE story in 1999. (A TUE cooked up from scratch then backdated)

    LA had no saddle sore. That was a big fat lie.

    LA accused Greg Lemond of EPO use. Especially in his 1989 miracle comeback--where he set a TDF TT speed record. Lance might be 100% correct.

    I would suggest the LA knows more about anemia medicine than I do---and he is probably correct re: Greg Lemond using EPO.

    Greg admitted to an "iron injection' in the 1989 Giro---and then claimed a 2nd place in a TT the very next day. EPO was around from 1983 (not approved until 1989) But neither was PFC, Actovegin or Hemopure and those blood priducts are being used too.

    Iron deficiencies often follow EPO dosing.

    On drug begits yet another.

    Perhaps you apologists did not hear me message clearly enough.

    Tous Dope---the all dope 100%, not just your favorite riders or my least favorite.

    All of them do it--at varying degrees!

    Later they rationaize it to themselves and the public.


     
  13. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    Some extracts from your posting:

    He (Millar) said LA is a freak of nature!

    Only from 1999 onwards.

    This is the same Dr. Ferrari who said EPO doesn´t fundamentally change a riders performance!

    Prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, the IOC requested field validation tests for the Australian developed EPO blood testing. Any sports persons who were part of the testing were not allowed to compete. I know an elite cyclist/triathlete who was part of that testing. He went into great detail on his website on how he demolished all his TT PB's when he was training whilst legally on EPO. He said he could do hard 100kms in the morning and felt he back up with a similar effort in the afternoon, such was the recovery. It was all detailed on his website. Unfortunately I cannot find his website.

    However, he (Ben Larsen) wrote for CyclingNews and this was in an article in 2002 in testing equipment:

    The 10km time-trial course is close to my home and is rolling hills; I ride it often and have three years of periodic testing over the same course with heart rate files so it works pretty well as a real-life laboratory. Over three years of testing my times tend to range from 13m40s to 13m50s with average heart rates of 163-165 (Hrmax = 182) when I am in good form. The only repeatable variations from that pattern came when I was part of the EPO test validation program in 2000. During this period I managed to ride the course consistently at 13m00s-13m10s with slightly lower heart rate averages but I have never managed to consistently get that low again

    If Ben Larsen could produce 10k TT times (I personally know the course - it is tough) out of competition (no adrenaline) that are 40-50 seconds better, then EPO does fundamentally change performance. Would not mind that type of improvement to a prologue time.

    Remember, we are talking about improvements to AT power which can only be viewed exponentially.
     
  14. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    snyperman:

    You are so naive in matters of commercial (business), pharmaceutical research and sports entertainment.

    Research drugs cannot be detected because no markers are put into them.

    Trade secrets are zealously guarded. This helps 1) the drug company deferred revenues 2) the lying cheating athlete 3) protects the myth of testing.

    The money is on the side of drug research, 1,000,000 to 1.

    Testers are in the dark and are not privy to secret drugs. Never were, never will be.

    BALCO happened after Marion Jone's former coach sent USADA a syringe with tHG (designer steroid) on it. Again no tester caught anybody.

    Without whistleblowers, no progress in compliance will ever be made. That is the bottom line.


     
  15. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    For a person who does not care about anemia and trauma doping---you sure do get around.

    Have you not gianed any insight on PEDs and how they have altered the elite game--in all sports????

    Instead of taking cheap shots--why don't you contribute some substantive material?

    Do you know anything about doping or addiction?


     
  16. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    I know for a fact that my doctor was able to detect EVERYTHING (100%) I ever put into my body (and it wasn't much). When I went through my struggle with cancer, they were able to tell me everything about my medical history through the tests I was given. So for you to say that they can not detect these drugs, sounds like BS to me. If they can find things they are not looking for (my cancer), they sure as hell can detect any foreign matter in an athletes system. From there, the detection can be used to identify the foreign matter/substance in the system.
     
  17. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Not even close to the truth. Your experience does not override the life science community.

    Doctors are very limited in their work. Extremely limited to guessing and estimating.

    Futhermore, Europeans practice medicine differently than do Americans. Many treatments are different.

    That is why Lance's doctors confronted him in 1996 re: their suspisions about his abuse of steroids.

    It is believed that Lance admitted it---and there were many witnesses present. 7 non physicians and numerous doctors present.

    Better hope none of those people ever gets pissed off at Lance.



     
  18. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    Suggest you read this article on how they beat EPO (microdosing) and steroid (cocktail) testing.

    http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7844

    Also, 70% of the pro peloton have therapeutic use exemptions for asthma drugs (asthma general population incidence 5%). This 70% includes LA. One particular asthma drug increases muscle volume by 50% and acts as a masking agent for other illegal PED's.
     
  19. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    Very interesting ... if true. Where can I find a reference of this claim?

    If it is true, then the names of the doctors, the approximate date of this alleged confrontation will be known as well as the name of the person(s) making the claim. Assuming the person was present s/he can decribe exactly the substance of the conversation and how it is s/he was present for the conversation. If the person was not present but is passing along second-hand information, s/he still will be able to name the person present who made the firsthand observation.

    "It is believed that Lance admitted it". Believed by whom? There should be no belief involved. Either someone heard him admit it and that person is known and credible and has confirmed it, or not. If not, then it's a belief without basis.

    The more I read though your posts, Flyer, the more I have questions about your credibility. I ask simple questions which you don't answer. It seems you have made conflicting claims about your own racing experience.

    Here's your chance to demonstrate that you're a credible source of information.
     
  20. Biscayne

    Biscayne New Member

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    VF, where can someone like me find out what TUEs have been granted to a particular racer? If, for example, I wanted to see what TUEs have been granted to George Hincapie, is there a place I could find that information?

    How does the TUE process work? Presumably a rider has to file a written request that isn't granted automatically just because it's asked for, no? So, what governing body approves TUEs? Is it a race by race thing, or once you've received a TUE, it's good for as long as you race? Or is it good for a limited period of time (i.e. one racing season), and they you'd have to re-up?

    Last, about the asthma drug you refer to, what is it called and where can I go to read up on it -- where I'll find info explaining how it increases muscle volume by 50% and what other drugs it might mask? From the little I know about asthma medications, they do contain adrenaline, which I can understand as a nice boost agent, and presumably they would open the bronchi to permit greater oxygenation of the blood too.

    Circling back to the approval process ... whatever entity grants TUEs, what has to be proven to them in order to grant an exemption for powerful asthma medications? Is a doctor's note really sufficient? Is there some objective measure of impairment they need to show in order to demonstrate a "need" for the drug?

    Hopefully you can help me get a better grip on this seemingly huge "back-door" around the PED rules and barrier. TIA.
     
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