limerickman said:Fair point about the Press.
This might well be the case.
As I say LA may well have been targetted, who knows though.
As regards Jan Ullrich, yes he is a product of the East German system which decayed in 1989 (my buddy is doing a thesis on this).
However, my buddy told me all about the University of Leipzig and how the
East German swimmers, rowers, cyclists, track and field athletes were prepared there (hyperbaric chambers).
I well remember Kornelia Ender destroying the USA womens team in Montreal in 1976.
Susan Babashoff complaining about being beaten.
I think ullrich may have been too young to have benefitted from state
doping program, but who knows.
He was 16 when east Germany collapsed.
However unlike LA, Jan has been a consistent performer throughout.
It's LA improvement that merits questions.
meb said:The Don’s overt act toward Ferrari’s whistleblowing snitch last summer in the TDF seems like the strongest telltale marker. Intimidating a witness to your competitive detriment-before that I was inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.
BTW: Hyperbaric chambers? Did you mean hypobaric to simulate high altitude or is there some benefit to hyperbaric chambers?
hombredesubaru said:Lance has said many times that Simeoni doesnt deserve a platform for his views
.
hombredesubaru said:The facts: Lance has always been a superior athlete.
hombredesubaru said:So they will now not have Lance at the Giro which he clearly was planning to do with reconnaissance rides up the Mortirolo last spring. They will lose millions of dollars from tourists like me not coming to watch Lance in the Giro--which would have been one of the coolest things ever. All because some sh*t weasel like Simeoni is a whining crybaby.
So, being defensive about the slander of the sport he loves, the people he knows, and all the effort it takes him to be a great cyclist shows what? It certainly does not show that he is guilty. Just that he cares about cycling, his friends, and his career.limerickman said:For an allegedly innocent man, he's a mite too defensive.
1992-1996 doesn't denote a superior athlete - or anything for that matter.
1992-1996 shows a man who was nowhere close to being a superior athlete,
cancer or no cancer (and he didn't have cancer between 1992-1995 because
his medicals surely would have shown his illness).
bspeedy00 said:So, being defensive about the slander of the sport he loves, the people he knows, and all the effort it takes him to be a great cyclist shows what? It certainly does not show that he is guilty. Just that he cares about cycling, his friends, and his career.
Second, Lance was a superior athlete pre-cancer. He won the pro world championships in 1993 (youngest winner ever), 1993 won tour de france stage, won tour du pont and another tour de france stage win in 1995, as well as a number of smaller wins. All of this with developing cancer, unbeknownst to him. From 1992-1996 he was young and inexperienced. I think he performed at a superior level considering the physical handicap (cancer) and the steep learning curve of a newer cyclist who has never raced the caliber cyclist as found in Europe.
Cancer is quite capable of growing undetected for a large amount of time, and the fact that he found it in a late stage (3) indicates that he had it for a good portion of that period from 92-96.
hombredesubaru said:Lance has said many times that Simeoni doesnt deserve a platform for his views and I agree. Let's be realistic, Simeoni is a confessed doper. Cheated. Took perfromance enhancing drugs!!! Was convicted and served a ban. Why should we beieve HIM of all people?
<snip>
First off, excellent point olasnah.meb said:Intimidating a witness in the Ferrari criminal trial does not look like the act of an innocent man. That one act does more to cast doubt than any dominance.
Ferrari has been convicted, the courts found portions of Simeoni’s story corroborated credible, others not hence the split verdict.
meb said:Intimidating a witness in the Ferrari criminal trial does not look like the act of an innocent man. That one act does more to cast doubt than any dominance.
Ferrari has been convicted, the courts found portions of Simeoni’s story corroborated credible, others not hence the split verdict.
bspeedy00 said:First off, excellent point olasnah.
Second, Are you kidding me meb? If I had a friend being accused of something. I would defend that friend too, and if possible, I would make it my job to ensure that some punk didnt get a stage win. I think most people would. Lance feels Simeoni is that punk, trying to make himself look better by claiming that "everyone does it" [doping that is]. If lance was guilty, why would he make such a public risk/move to chase him down? It seems more dangerous if he was guilty because it attracts unnecessary attention. So, chasing down Simeoni could support Lance's innocence as well.
bspeedy00 said:If I had a friend being accused of something. I would defend that friend too, and if possible, I would make it my job to ensure that some punk didnt get a stage win. I think most people would. Lance feels Simeoni is that punk, trying to make himself look better by claiming that "everyone does it" [doping that is]. If lance was guilty, why would he make such a public risk/move to chase him down? It seems more dangerous if he was guilty because it attracts unnecessary attention. So, chasing down Simeoni could support Lance's innocence as well.
Flyer said:I think it would be safe to say that you do not know what Mr. Armstrong does either. I have been lurking on this thread and have posted previously, and must say that there appears to be hearsay on both sides.bspeedy00 said:...
You don't know what Lance Armstrong does, because you haven't got a clue what all pro cyclists have to do just to get on a team--never mind winning a race.
...
This is a debate and people are entitled to their opinions, but at this point that is all it can possibly be, an opinion. It seems that some people feel their opinion bears more weight than others.
I have said this before and I will say it again, I am a cancer survivor who no longer has a hamstring muscle in my right leg. My riding improved after my 9 months of chemo, surgery, and radiation. I don't know if I suffer any more than some of the people I ride with, but I do know that I do not know the meaning of the words "give up". My struggle with cancer was a nightmare and the treatment almost killed me so torturing myself on a bicycle is a far cry from the months I spent agonizing over whether I would survive and what my future health would be like.
I thought I would throw this in because I have read statements in previous posts where the poster has stated they can not believe that Mr. Armstrong's coming back from cancer at a lower weight and with a new lease on life is enough to make him a tour winner. I can not argue whether he dopes or not, but I sure can state from experience and fact that you can not ever doubt the will and power of the mind. How do you explain the guy with one leg who can ride up L'Alp as fast as others who have two legs. You know what the explanation is, he trains as hard as hell, and he does not take no for an answer. Sheer willpower. It's funny how far it can actually take you. On the other hand, it's not funny because it is true.
In regards to someone stating that all pro cyclists train as hard as Armstrong, I do not believe that all athletes train at the same level. Jens Voight admitted in an interview that when he wakes up and notices that it is raining outside it puts a smile on his face because he knows that not all the other riders will be out that day. This is a very single minded example, but it is an example nontheless that variations in training intensities and training programs exist.
Reading some of these posts it seems to me that I might as well give up whatever thoughts I have on the subject, because some of you already appear to have the answers or know certain things that the rest of us do not. I think I will stick to my gut instincts because I know better than to let other people tell me what to think. And I can also look inside myself and know that I and others have kicked a disease that kills and that I will forever live my life with an enthusiasm and intensity that some people share, but certainly not all. There will always be doubters in all walks of life.
jcthomasjr said:I think it would be safe to say that you do not know what Mr. Armstrong does either. I have been lurking on this thread and have posted previously, and must say that there appears to be hearsay on both sides.
Yet more definitions. If it is a miracle cancer recovery story it is not to be questioned or doubted.
If the cancer occurred because of 7 years of doping, that is hearsay and should be discredited and ignored. Lance teammates Greg & Erich did not enjoy a "cancer recovery" nor any commercial success. So their important stories are ignored or dismissed as irrelevant.
Even Greg LeMond comments are discredited by those who have a need to believe this story.
This post reads " Armstrong has been tickered with!!
That FACT that hundreds of athletes have already been caught, or admitted after retirement to using dope for all manner of purposes---but chiefly so; THAT THEY CAN TRAIN HARDER.
The best medical program ought to result in better recovery and longer training.
High training volume may be a marker.
Look, these beliefs are religious in nature.
Mine were formed by actual experince with doping, dopers, athletes, and non-athletes, and my nmerous sources in the life science community.
Believe what you want, but drugs are a profitable business founded in greed. Some drugs do work---but not permanently.
The game is to sell more drugs to more people more often.
Champion athletes already got this message long ago. Some sports fans are a little slow to pick up this message despite drug in all professional sport.
Even race-walkers use EPO & growth hormone. So too with Olympic badmitten players.
Apparently, the TDF is not as difficult as badmitten.
hombredesubaru said:If you belive that chasing down an attack is a form of witness intimidation, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
REAL witness intimidation, and I know something about this, is secretive, clandestine, subtle, and done in ways that can be plausibly denied. It is not generally done on international live TV, in front of hundreds of spectators etc.
Should Lance have chased Simeoni down? No it was reckless.
Is it illegal? Hardly. In every race, some team or racer etc gets flicked from the long memories riders have if someone screwed them over in the past.
But here is where the naivete of the posters here is galling.
Understand, if the prosecution has got Simeoni red-handed, (and they did) it is in his nature-as a proven and confessed cheat--, to lie to save his skin, by picking up the subtle clues an interrogation may provide:
"Did you ever get supplied dope by a notable figure in cycling, because such information could be looked upon favorably by the judge." There is huge pressue on the Italian police to come up with a law enforcement solution to sport doping, extremely unlikely IMHO if you look at the US war on Drugs etc.
This is how Feraari got implicated and this is why Lance is furious with Simeoni. The extent of Lance's anger to me is more an indication of Lance's honesty. If Lance were really working with Ferrari with illegal methods or thought Ferrari were doping athletes, dont you think he would stay a million miles away? The LA Enterprise Inc. is worth far more than one person's friendship or work to him.
Now I have no idea who is telling the truth, but I have seen enough episodes of NYPDBlue to know how this works. And by the way, if you had to pick any country's legal system to be reliable and just, would you pick Italy? or maybe you don't follow the Euro legal scene as some of us do. Bribe and corruption are the mainstay and routine dealings there. Remember, a lot of them liked and missed Mr. Mussolini. What a f#ckd up place, despite its many attractions like great opera, music, wine, countrysides, the Giro, Italian women, oh ****, the place is just great!!
hombredesubaru said:But here is where the naivete of the posters here is galling.
Understand, if the prosecution has got Simeoni red-handed, (and they did) it is in his nature-as a proven and confessed cheat--, to lie to save his skin, by picking up the subtle clues an interrogation may provide:
"Did you ever get supplied dope by a notable figure in cycling, because such information could be looked upon favorably by the judge." There is huge pressue on the Italian police to come up with a law enforcement solution to sport doping, extremely unlikely IMHO if you look at the US war on Drugs etc.
hombredesubaru said:This is how Feraari got implicated and this is why Lance is furious with Simeoni. The extent of Lance's anger to me is more an indication of Lance's honesty. If Lance were really working with Ferrari with illegal methods or thought Ferrari were doping athletes, dont you think he would stay a million miles away? The LA Enterprise Inc. is worth far more than one person's friendship or work to him.
hombredesubaru said:.
And by the way, if you had to pick any country's legal system to be reliable and just, would you pick Italy? or maybe you don't follow the Euro legal scene as some of us do. Bribe and corruption are the mainstay and routine dealings there. Remember, a lot of them liked and missed Mr. Mussolini. What a f#ckd up place, despite its many attractions like great opera, music, wine, countrysides, the Giro, Italian women, oh ****, the place is just great!!
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