Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by TiMan, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    If Magoo & David Baily were not quads, I would have them roost you. Magoo was a doper, "the little professor not"--although he might be now.

    As for your conspiracy theories---there are none that I know of. Just business as usual in the sport industry. aka" maximizing corporate ad revenues & promote drug research using athletes as test dummies.

    Thems the rules. Lots of people know--apparently you don't follow our sport except in a superficial way.

    Ask Tony La Russa, he is another lying sack of fraud cake! You can turn your money over to him--he'll gladly take it.

    You probably don't know squat about 3-time National Junior Champion Greg Strock or Lance's other "A" team partners, Erich Kaiter, Gerrik Latta or David Francis or there daily injections and illnesses.

    And Michele Ferrari giving Axel Merckx Prozac along with his growth hormones is just good medical service for athletes.

    Ignorance is bliss.

    Lance has you covered!

    His peers do too.
     


  2. Perro Loco

    Perro Loco New Member

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    I think the black Helicopters are hoovering overhead.

    A few things about Greg Stock

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/dec00/dec04news.shtml


    He also said that there was an "85 percent correlation" between the Parvo virus and testicular cancer, prompting some to connect him with Lance Armstrong, who was also a member of the junior team at that time. However, Strock has issued a statement saying that Armstrong had no involvement in or knowledge of doping that Strock claims to have occurred. "I would hope that this statement will end any discussion of a relationship between my lawsuit and Lance. There simply is none," said Strock.
    Regarding the bribe to win the thrift drug classic
    The article in the French news weekly l'Express also alleges that Armstrong had bought off the Coors Light team in 1993 West Virginia, part of the the Triple Crown series which offered a million dollar prize for the winner of all three races (Thrift Drug Classic in Pittsburgh, K-Mart Tour of West Virginia, First Union USPRO Championships).

    Former Coors Light team director Len Pettyjohn, reached by phone in Colorado Sunday, told Cyclingnews, "At the time, Mike Engleman (currently a coach with USA Cycling's women's program) was in second in West Virginia and he was getting tired. We didn't think we could beat Lance, so we agreed not to attack him so we could win team classification and he could win the overall.

    "But when we got to Philly, there was no deal," Pettyjohn added. "And our guys didn't race like there was a deal. On the ninth time up the Manayunk Wall, Roberto Gaggioli attacked and made a selection. But he came back to the car after and said 'I hope (Lance) doesn't attack... I'm toast.' But Lance attacked on the last time up the Wall and there was nobody who could cover his move.

    "I never saw any money change hands nor heard any of the guys talk about it," he said.


    It should also be mentioned that subsequent studies have failed to find a correlation between Parvovirus B19 infecction and testicular cancer.
    Yeah I know- Lance's secret army of black shade wearinfng lawyers paid off stock and pettyjohn to get them to say this....
    Has or does Lance use PED? Don't know, much of what I have seen as "evidence" is pretty wifty. Prior to 98 I would be suspicious of any cyclist. OBJECTIVE data from the 98 tour de france showed ~14% of urine samples tested retrospectively positive for recombinant erythropoietin.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10864311
     
  3. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Perro Locco:

    Great disclosures. This is helpful.

    In the absence of a full-blown cofession--a la Jose Conseco or Ken Caminiti---you must employ some deductive reasoning and the testimonies of Lance's associates and former teammates --as well as industry practices. (and illegal doping is widespread in cycling)

    In the case of Greg Strock careful crafted denial of Lance's involvement in daily doping----it does sound like the disclaimer of someone who has accepted a settlement check and signed a "confidentiality agreement" which I believe he has. That agreement would indemnify both Chris Carmichael and Lance from the systematice Junior doping lawsuit against USA Cycling and now--just Rene Wenzel.

    Nevertheless, when 4 out of 5 "A" team Junior riders all agree that doping was a standard practice in 1990 & 1991 can we dismiss that as weak evidence? Especially, when 3 of 5 got dread diseases.

    If you read the old interviews of Greg Strock interview in VeloNews, he implicates Carmichael without mentioning his name.

    And by association, Lance is implicated too.

    How could Lance be the only one of five, NOT injecting? That's ridiculous.

    Just as I do not rely on Tony La Russa for the truth in steroid use in his club house and MLB in general, neither do I rely upon USPO press releases.

    The junior doping of Lance 1990 combined with Lance's 10 year commitment to Dr. Michele Ferrari are heavy examples of doping. If he were clean, his appearance would be clean as well. But it's dirty.
     
  4. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    I read the first few posts by Limerickman and Flyer and then got bored...

    Are you two guys that jealous of a bike rider that you are consumed by the thought that he must be doping. It's really quite sad and shows how limited you are mentally.

    The assertion that his change in form is impossible without the use of a performance enhancing substance is ludicrous. Have either of you actually taken part in a competitive sporting event? I have raced for 12 years (MTB then Road) and the first few years I really suffered. My form was poor and my training skills were lacking.

    In my third year of racing (CAT 3) I was sponsored by a small bike company in NJ and to meet their expectations I drastically altered my training regimen, dropped 15 pounds (175 to 160) and improved my cardio.

    My fourth year found me placing in the top 10 consistently and taking several podiums (4-3rds, 6-2nds and 2-1sts). These were all races that I had not previously gotten out of the pack.

    I am by NO MEANS close to any of these pro's in terms of ability, yet I was able to change my own performance drastically by means of training and diet.

    Now consider that LA has WORLD CLASS coaches, trainers and equipment designed to enhance his performances and consider how he might have been able to do the same.

    Try and set aside your hatred/ jealousy of LA for a second and possibly you might come to understand that extreme changes are possible without drugs.

    I am positive that I will receive replies that I am another LA robot, but the fact is that there is NO PROOF to the doping allegations and LA is tested more than any other athlete alive. SHOW ME THE PROOF???/

    Face the facts, you are both wrong. Now go out, get a bike and try riding it.
    :rolleyes:
     
  5. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    What do you want, a Cliff Bar and a $100 prize? What you are referring to, local Cat 1,2,3 racing--where doping does occur as well, is irrelevant compared with international level of competition. Fat guys on EPO & stimulants will drop you faster than cry uncle.

    Go to Italy and learn how to race & dope.

    Isn't that what Lance did?

    You bet he did--sent by Eddie Merckx himself. In 1993, an Italian doctor bragged that his EPO program "could make pigs fly". He was correct.

    If diet helps you 10%, doping helps you 100%.

    Get off your bike--and learn about elite sport.
     
  6. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    I am not sure which you have in greater supply...ignorance or hatred of Lance.

    Either way you are a pathetically sad little man. I extend my symapthies to those who know you and are subjected to your painful ignorance on a daily basis.

    Maybe if YOU got on a bike once in a while you might understand the possibilities of athletic endeavor and achievement. However I am certain that will always escape the likes of you.
     
  7. Perro Loco

    Perro Loco New Member

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    Very good example. and good job!
    I don't think most people grasp the difference dropping a few pounds can make even on the flats-(reduced resistence, drag). Simple physics seems to escape most. Power to weight ratio is one the most important concepts.
    http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
    Play around with above calculator and hold power out the same and start dropping weight.- 180 lb 200 watts- 20.7 mph 30 miles 1:26:57
    170 lbs 200 watts 20.9 mph 30 miles 1:26:07
    almost a minute at 30 miles on flats. If you start doing uphill the difference is dramatic.
     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    What are ranting about? What a loooooooser!

    Call your buddies Barry Bonds & OJ Simpson--they are as looney as your are. Steroids can cause that too. Perhaps you already know that?

    In a bike race, you'll be dropped like the lard bag you appear to be.

    No worries, my squad will drill it the opening 30 seconds and you'll be OTB dreaming about your diet & training programs. Bye now.
     
  9. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    Your "SQUAD"...Bwahahahaha I LOVE it. Let me guess, that's your dog and another sadsack like yourself who get together to circle jerk each other while chanting "Lance Sucks...Lance Sucks".

    Yes, your "SQUAD" certainly would "Drill it" in the first 30 seconds...I pity your poor dog.

    I do have to commend you for using the biker lingo "OTB". Very impressive. Gee you MUST be the real deal. Wow, you are so impressive to the likes of us lowly bike riders.

    Don't you have a new "Lance is on DOPE" thread to start or something to get yourself some attention (which you apparently lacked growing up)? Or is this the night you play Dungeons and Dragons in your spandex tights?

    What an AssClown you are. hahahahahahahahaha.

    ps. Say "Hi" to your "SQUAD" for me.....Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha
     
  10. Perro Loco

    Perro Loco New Member

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    In justifying the classification of a theory as a conspiracy theory, detractors tend to level accusations that the theory is:

    1. Not backed up by sufficient evidence.
    2. Phrased in such a way as to be unfalsifiable.
    3. Improbably complex.
    Defenders point out in response that:

    1. Those powerful people involved in the conspiracy hide, destroy, or obfuscate evidence.
    2. Skeptics / apologists are not (in their opinion) prepared to keep an open mind.
    3. Skeptics / apologists may be politically motivated and have a vested interest in the status quo.
     
  11. micron

    micron New Member

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    mjolnir could you possibly try to construct arguments that aren't predicated on personal abuse? We are all entitled to our opinions and this forum is somewhere to voice them. We might disagree with each other but your posts have brought what was a reasonable discussion of what is potentially a very serious subject to the level of a playground pissing contest.
     
  12. tas1978

    tas1978 New Member

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    Hey, this is a little off topic, but I thought you guys would get a laugh from it. This is a quote from Jose Conseco's new autobiography in which he tells all about his drug use:

    “One definite side effect of steroid use is the atrophying of your testicles. But here's the point I want to emphasize: what happens to your testes has nothing to do with any shrinking of the penis. That's a misconception. As a matter of fact, the reverse can be true. Using growth hormone can make your penis bigger, and make you more easily aroused. So to the guys out there who are worried about their manhood, all I can say is: Growth hormone worked for me.:eek:

    I'm sold.;)
    ts
     
  13. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    That's probably true. It can improve your vision as well and improve skin tone--adding a fine glow. These are details I have witnessed with my own eyes with pro-cyclists. As well as improved endurance.

    Certainly these synthetic hormones do work, and that is the entire point. Athletes would not be using dope if it did not improve performance. Neither would 350,000 high school kids.

    The question is whether overdosing---or using for years at low dosages, will adversely effect the pituitary gland function?

    Athletes tend to overdose. One of Lance's old doctors once told me; Never confuse a elite athlete with good health. So I believe that after years of abuse, you will go bi-polar or suffer stroke or cancer from the extra liver and kidney overload loads. But it really depends on the serverity of the doping abuse.

    No two people ever dope exactly the same way or have the same reaction with identical doses.

    It is witchcraft, trial and error.

    btw: doesn't Barry Bonds remind you of OJ Simpson. Both were heavy steroid & cortisone abusers. And both are "up-and-down mood swingers prone to anger"

    So too with the bash brothers. You ought to see Mark McGwire's baby brother---he is a monster and he is NOT a pro-athlete--but he is on a Deca "program".
     
  14. WayneOsWorld

    WayneOsWorld New Member

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    I'm relatively new to this sport. A year ago I believed that 'rampant' doping meant that 20% of the elite athletes were using performance enhancing drugs. After reading these posts and many of the links, it seems that it must be 50-80% of them.

    I hope Lance isn't one of the dopers. But I ain't gonna bet on it. Meanwhile, until and unless it is proven, I'll admire the man.
     
  15. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    My assessment of cycling is; medical treatment billed as trauma care commences once an athlete has made a National Team of any of the European or North American nations. After that, the U-23 racing will lead to a trade team assignment. The athlete will volunteer for medical help--or will quit in frustration. Nobody will force them--although peer and coaching pressure will be applied to slow-movers. (riders are only age 17-22, what doping defense do they have?)

    The athlete will have already been assimilated into a routine of daily injections and oral medications in order to carry out the average workload of a U-23 race schedule.

    So my estimate is 80-90% of U-23 athletes are doping at some level. And the 10-20% that are not doping, will do so very soon (in 6 weeks to 90 days) or else they will leave the sport demoralized and with chronic fatigue.

    At the pro-level (Trade Teams with demanding Sponsors) the doping habits are 100%.

    So that would involve Lance, his entire sqaud and that of his competitors as well. However, not everyone uses the same type of dope, dosages, frequencies or combinations. So the best witches brew may be a big advantage.

    At the elite level--everyone is talented and motivated--so the performance differences are very small. The boost power that the drugs bring is enormous---therefore, it is impossible for an un-doped rider to compete with the medicated peloton.

    Finally, show a rider who works the most, and I'll show you the rider you is doping at persistent dosages. At the elite level---everyone works hard, but not everyone has the same drugs or precise methods. That is reserved for the riders with the best pharma-research programs.

    That sums up cycling and most Olympic sports today.

    Gladiator Class--with the players dying off the field and out of view of the spectators.

    The only riders I have heard rumors about, that refused much of the recommended doping were:

    Charlie Mottet Andy Hamspten.

    Festina would never have hired Bassons if they thought he was a non-doper.

    That's two clean riders out of a 2,000.


    "Clean sport is but a myth" Francesco Moser


    Champions such as Moser, Anquetil, Merckx, Lemond, must be believed over a commercially entangled current TDF winner. The facts are not on LA side.

    If you wear a NIKE swosh, you MUST BE DOPED!

    Barry Bonds, Marian Jones, Kelli White, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, or LA.

    Tiger Woods----maybe?
     
  16. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    You speak of things that you have no basis of fact or knowledge of. This is one of the single most inane posts I have yet to see. Is it jealousy, anger or hatred which causes you to make such idiotic statements?

    So, just to make sure I understand you, if a pro athlete is good they are on dope, end of story. (oh and "NIKE" is evil)

    Excellent and well thought out points...

    sad!
     
  17. tas1978

    tas1978 New Member

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    I think Flyer left out Jeff Gordon. NASCAR drivers have more sponsors than anybody, so they must be on dope. Gordon just won the Daytona 500, so he must be doped to the gills!
     
  18. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Great point.

    Today it was reported that Robbie Gordon's team was fined $50,000 for cheating and 25 championship points! Illegal intake manifold.

    Somebody else was fined $10,000 for an illegal transmission.

    Plenty of cheating in Nascar. It is a money sport too.

    btw: Do you think Ridalin or stimulants would be more helpful in Baseball or the Daytona 500?

    It's a fair question.
     
  19. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    What is it that you are so desperate to prove? That all professional sports/ athletes engage in cheating of some nature? I just can't understand your motivation...what is it that you hope to accomplish with your assertions?

    Perhaps the solution for you would be to stop concerning yourself with sports as a whole. They are hardly essential to daily life and then you could spend your time focusing on topics that really do have an impact on peoples lives.

    Turn off the ESPN, put down the sports magazines and stop reading USA today and you won't have to worry about all of this cheating any longer.

    I for one will continue to marvel at the athletic feats of these premier athletes while accepting the fact that there is a percentage who come about their abilities and accomplishments by illicit means. Can't throw out the baby with the bath water as my old grand pappy used to say.
     
  20. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Sad, yes, Truthful and accurate, absolutely.

    If anything, I am understating the volume of drug abuses in sport. It's a daily issue.

    Insofar as me "not knowing what I am writing about--or having no basis". Hmmmmm?

    Let's review:

    Just in 2004 alone.

    1) Tyler Hamilton gets popped (twice) for blood doping
    2) Santiago Perez get popped for blood doping
    3) 1998 World Champion Oscar Camenzind goes EPO positive and retires
    4) A 16 year old South African kid goes EPO positive in a U-16 stage race
    5) Six of the top ten, and 100% of the top four of the
    Tour of Guatemala go EPO positive.
    6) Equine (horse) Growth Hormones, and spent syringes are discovered in the dorm room of 19 year old Mark French, multi-Junior World Champion. The volume was enough for the whole Junior squad---but no proof could be established. However, French was banned for life from the Olympics---he is appealing.
    7) The female winner of the 2004 Iron Man, Hawaii goes EPO positive. She was confused because she quit injections 72 hours prior to the race. She was lead to believe that she would be in compliance with doping controls.
    8) 22 year old cyclist Tim Pauwels dies of a heart failure.
    9) Lance Armstrong's "performance coach" is convicted of Malpractice for drugging athletes.
    He is aquitted of "drug trafficing" because he sends his patients to Switzerland for thre drug pickups.
    10) Johan Museeuw, the Lion of Flanders is handed a four (4) year ban for doping.
    11) After a career season David Rebellin and his wife are set to go court on yet another illegal sporting fraud and illegal doping trial in Italy.
    12) Gerrie Knetemann dies at age 53 of heart failure. He was a Dutch legend and wiiner of many TDF stages and Amstel Gold Classics. He was a captain at powerhouse trades teams Raleigh & PDM---remember their doping scandal in 1992?
    13) On June 30, 2004 we lost 28 year old Stive Vermaut to heart failure. They say it was "congenital" although it hardly explains how he could qualify for work at team Lotto.
    14) Filippo Simeoni sue Lance Armstrong for defamation & libel.
    15) Lance goes bi-polar on stage 18 and chases after a meaningless break---causing T-Mobile to mock Johan Bruneel and USPO.
    16) Lance puts his entire USPO squad on Simeoni on the final day into Paris--spitting and blowing snott on him---and cursing at him and insulting his wife too.
    17) An international arrest warrant for drug trafficing is issued for Raimondas Rumsas, podium finisher with Lance in the 2002 TDF.
    18) USPO former doctor, Prentice Steffen claims Tyler Hamiton & another rider approached him for anemia drugs during the 1997 Tour of Swiss.
    19) Lance goes bi-polar yet again by lambasting Richard Pound of WADA---and asserting that he is incompetent. Sounded like Barry Bonds, maybe?
    18) David Millar Eprix supply is discovered by Paris Police after a surprise search. Millar finally admits he is a doper---but not before months of denials and name calling (nutter). He get a 24 month suspension retro active to the search warrant date.

    Often those who call out bad names are the real liars.

    19) Team Cofidis is exposed for systematic doping
    20) Team Kelme is exposed by Jesus Manzano as having systematic doping. He does not name names, but does itemixe the illegal trauma & anemia drugs as well as doping control avoidance protocols.

    21) In San Francisco, 27 elite athletes from the NFL, MLB, track & field are exposed as both liars and dopers when Federal Grand Jury transcripts of their testimony is leaked to the press. The athletes all had immunity---except for Marion Jones who may have lost her protection.

    22) David Fuentes goes anabolic steroid positive on March 25 at the Redlands Classic. He is allowed to race all season long before receiving a 24 month suspension---retroactive to March 25. That mneans it is an 18 month suspension beginning with the off-season. Yeah, that's fair. No prizes will be forfeited.

    This is 100% public info.

    I have far more stuff privately.

    Being named called an idiot by a dellusional buffoon is no curse.

    Let the reader decide who knows the facts.
     
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