Armstrong lied last year.

[Bob Schwartz]

B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Sprinter's battles are a sideshow. They are here today and gone tomorrow. They get attention
>> because there is nothing else going on.

> Don't tell that to the guys interested in the Points Jersey. I wonder how different the racing
> is now, with intermediate points on offer, as compared to the dreaded old days when points
> were given at the end of the stage.

The Points Jersey gets attention when there is nothing else going on.

And don't confuse a tight competition for the PJ that gets engaged several times a day with a big
effort at the end of a stage during the first week. They're not the same. People groove on a tight
PJ competition because it's a two or three way fistfight. It's much more similar in nature to the GC
competition than the battle for early stage wins.

>>
>> Some no-hope French guy like Simon taking the jersey as the result of a long breakaway on an
>> early stage and then fighting valiantly to stay ahead of the lawnmowers once the race gets to the
>> real stages, *that's* how you generate interest in the first week. The race is more interesting
>> if you get rid of the teams that will blow themselves out to keep it all together for the
>> sprints. That puts more pressure on the teams of the contenders and opens up more tactical
>> possibilities that are meaningful for a race as a whole.

> While I agree that this is potentially great drama, how often does it happen. Simon yes. Off
> the top of my head I recall Pensec, Chiapucci and Walko. Who else? There no doubt are other
> instances.

There would be more if they got rid of the sprinters' teams. Which is not to say that they should do
that. But I wouldn't waste any tears over Cipo not being there.

Even if a Pensec-like situation doesn't happen, it still opens up tactical possibilities. If USP or
some other contending team has to make a big effort early in the Tour, you know this will show up
later. Contrast that with the situation of a couple of years ago where you had a team like Saeco
that was living for the first week and didn't care if the team was blown out by having to control
the race during that time. Not having a team like that in the race makes things harder for the GC
teams. And that's a good thing.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[James P. Spoone]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > While I agree that this is potentially great drama, how often does
it
> > happen. Simon yes. Off the top of my head I recall Pensec, Chiapucci
and
> > Walko. Who else? There no doubt are other instances.
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Kivilev.

Vincent Barteau

 

[Dan Connelly]

Bob Schwartz wrote:
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Sprinter's battles are a sideshow. They are here today and gone tomorrow. They get attention
>>>because there is nothing else going on.
>
>
>> While I agree that this is potentially great drama, how often does it happen.

Almost every stage. Guys are off the front, "MJ sur la route", yada yada. It's a constant factor.

> Contrast that with the situation of a couple of years ago where you had a team like Saeco that
> was living for the first week and didn't care if the team was blown out by having to control the
> race during that time. Not having a team like that in the race makes things harder for the GC
> teams. And that's a good thing.

A good point.

Look, Jean-Marie "Le Tour, C'est Mois" LeBlanc should just set objective criteria and be done with
it. Just hard-code in a preference for French teams. Then that's it.

Dan

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Sprinter's battles are a sideshow. They are here today and gone
tomorrow.
> >> They get attention because there is nothing else going on.
>
> > Don't tell that to the guys interested in the Points Jersey. I
wonder
> > how different the racing is now, with intermediate points on offer, as compared to the dreaded
> > old days when points were given at the end of
the
> > stage.
>
> The Points Jersey gets attention when there is nothing else going on.
>
> And don't confuse a tight competition for the PJ that gets engaged several times a day with a big
> effort at the end of a stage during the first week. They're not the same. People groove on a tight
> PJ competition because it's a two or three way fistfight. It's much more similar in nature to the
> GC competition than the battle for early stage wins.

That's a good observation as to sprinters first week as opposed to points competition later in the
event. However, I wonder if more of the sprinters, like Cipo and Pettachi would stick around if the
points jersey were based only on end of stage placing thereby making it what it once was, a prize
for the most consistent overall rider. It would, I think, be a significantly different and more
interesting competition.

 

[Tom Schulenburg]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote:
> > So I can conclude from this the Tour would have been better without Petacchi? He was never a long-
> > breakaway threat, and showed himself to be a world-class acrophobe.
>
> Ask yourself how the first week of the Tour would rate if it were a stand alone event. The
> sprinter's battles are a sideshow.
>
<SNIP>

The first week of the Tour might be just as interesting, if not more so (without Cipo and Petacchi),
because the teams going for the Green Jersey would have to step up and go for the points. The stages
would certainly be competitive.

-T

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>> Almost every stage. Guys are off the front, "MJ sur la route", yada
yada.
> It's a constant factor.

But this is quite different from a serious multi rider escape where they are working together. Most
of these guys today are off the front alone for tv publicity purposes and have no real hope of
winning the stage let alone stealing enough time to upset the favorites on gc.

I guess the answer is to ban television until the final 1/2 hour. They could contract out the tv
coverage and get Sam Posey and ABC to do it ;-).

 

[Bob Schwartz]

B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
> However, I wonder if more of the sprinters, like Cipo and Pettachi would stick around if the
> points jersey were based only on end of stage placing thereby making it what it once was, a prize
> for the most consistent overall rider. It would, I think, be a significantly different and more
> interesting competition.

We don't have to speculate, that's how the Giro and Vuelta do it. What you get is a mixture of
sprinters and GC riders at the top with less head-to- head competition because they don't excel at
the same times.

I think the Tour has got it right.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Charles Hizark]

"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Lance told a lie during last year's tdf that still bothers me. I forget the stage, but does anyone
> remember a desperate Lance trying to convince the OLN guy that he had brake pad rubbing on the rim
> the whole stage. Are you going to tell me, that Lance and his whole support team arn't going to
> notice that? Why would lie to all of us like that? Was it Halliburton?

I have seen no evidence to substantiate your claim that Lance was lying.

 

[B. Lafferty]

Lets take up a collection and have a voice stress analysis done of
Armstong's statement. I'll bet the Enquirer would do it for free.
"Charles Hizark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Lance told a lie during last year's tdf that still bothers me. I forget the stage, but does
> > anyone remember a desperate Lance trying to convince
the
> > OLN guy that he had brake pad rubbing on the rim the whole stage. Are
you
> > going to tell me, that Lance and his whole support team arn't going to notice that? Why would
> > lie to all of us like that? Was it Halliburton?
>
> I have seen no evidence to substantiate your claim that Lance was lying.

 

[Curtis L . Russ]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:28:33 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Lets take up a collection and have a voice stress analysis done of Armstong's statement. I'll bet
>the Enquirer would do it for free.

Then let's vote on whether or not we keep him out of the hall of fame. Its a good thing that no one
uses lame excuses for bad days on this side of the pond.

My personal favorite lame excuse is the guy that was upset that the other team worked against him in
a cat IV race. Everyone knows that there's no team work in cat IV...

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

 

[B. Lafferty]

But in the hypothetical, Armstrong doesn't have the yellow jersey. His teammate does.

"James P. Spooner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:5%RVb.442714$JQ1.47705@pd7tw1no...
> The answer is:
>
> Armstrong has the yellow jersey pace him.
>
> James P. Spooner
>
>
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > B. Lafferty wrote:
> > >
> > > > So, if one of Armstong's teammates got in an early break and took 18 minutes, would Armstong
> > > > work for him or at least not attack him (as
> > LeMond
> > > > rode with Pensec) or would the teammate wistfully fantasize about a
> Tour
> > > > with national teams? (The question is, I think, rhetorical)
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't be silly. Postal is going for the record 6. If one of
> Armstrong's
> > teammates
> > > somehow won 5 tours in a row, then we can discuss who would get the
> > support.
> > > For 2004, Armstrong's the man. Anyone on the team who doesn't realize
> > that should
> > > take their contract elsewhere, as in both this year and prior years,
> some
> > have.
> >
> > That's why I said the question was rhetorical.
> > >
> > > Of course, Armstrong wouldn't attack his own guy.
> >
> > Nor would his own guy in yellow be in any way protected. We've already
> see
> > that in a Tour. But if his own guy was his best supporting climber, he'd
> use
> > him as much as possible in the mountains and take time indirectly. If
his
> > teammate wasn't out of yellow after the mountains he'd do him in in a
time
> > trial. So, I guess I'm not certain how you're defining "attack."
> >
> > Let me pose another hypothetical. Lets say one of his climbers is in
> yellow
> > by 18 minutes due to covering an early break and has that 18 min on the first mountain stage.
> > Armstong, showing his age terribly, has an awful
> day
> > in the mountains; Ullrich, Hamilton, and Beloki climb away from
> Armstrong.
> > Does Armstrong have the yellow jersey stay with him to pace him in his purgatory, or let him
> > mark Ullrich. Would he let his teammate win to
> block
> > Ullrich as Anquitel did with Aimar to Poulidor?
> >

 

[Dan Connelly]

James P. Spooner wrote:
> The answer is:
>
> Armstrong has the yellow jersey pace him.
>

Brian wrote:
>>Let me pose another hypothetical. Lets say one of his climbers is in yellow by 18 minutes due to
>>covering an early break and has that 18 min on the first mountain stage. Armstong, showing his age
>>terribly, has an awful day in the mountains; Ullrich, Hamilton, and Beloki climb away from
>>Armstrong.
>
>>Does Armstrong have the yellow jersey stay with him to pace him in his purgatory, or let him mark
>>Ullrich. Would he let his teammate win to block Ullrich as Anquitel did with Aimar to Poulidor?

I disagree with James, assuming Armstrong lost big time to his rivals. If he didn't, Armstrong's
still the man. They won't throw away a chance at the yellow for a lost cause in Armstrong.

Dan

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote:
> Look, Jean-Marie "Le Tour, C'est Mois" LeBlanc should just set objective criteria and be done with
> it. Just hard-code in a preference for French teams. Then that's it.

Geez, Dan. We just finish up a debate on techniques to generate interest in the race and you end
with a suggestion that would kill the pre-race soap opera.

If Leblanc were half the tactician as a racer that he is as a promoter we would have won a few
himself. The major loss in Cipo's team being TT2 is that we don't get to watch the two of them go
back and forth over the wildcards before seeing Cipo get stiffed.

And besides, he can't hard code a French factor because he doesn't know in advance
*how*low*he'll*have*to*sink*to*let*enough*of*them*in*.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Let me pose another hypothetical. Lets say one of his climbers is in
yellow
> > by 18 minutes due to covering an early break and has that 18 min on the first mountain stage.
> > Armstong, showing his age terribly, has an awful
day
> > in the mountains; Ullrich, Hamilton, and Beloki climb away from
Armstrong.
> > Does Armstrong have the yellow jersey stay with him to pace him in his purgatory, or let him
> > mark Ullrich. Would he let his teammate win to
block
> > Ullrich as Anquitel did with Aimar to Poulidor?
>
> A similar situation occurred in the 1940 Giro. Bartali, leader of the
Legnano
> team, was injured in a fall early in the race. As Bartali struggled under
a
> barrage of attacks, eventually his team director let a talented support
rider
> go for the win.
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cvccbikers/giro/giro_winners.html#1940
>
> Bob Schwartz [email protected]

More recently, Riis ceding leadership to Ullrich. Not that either of them liked it. I can still see
Riis throwing that bike in the time trial out of pure frustration.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:4027FB8D.4030407@i_e_e_e.o_r_g...
> James P. Spooner wrote:
> > The answer is:
> >
> > Armstrong has the yellow jersey pace him.
> >
>
> Brian wrote:
> >>Let me pose another hypothetical. Lets say one of his climbers is in
yellow
> >>by 18 minutes due to covering an early break and has that 18 min on the first mountain stage.
> >>Armstong, showing his age terribly, has an awful
day
> >>in the mountains; Ullrich, Hamilton, and Beloki climb away from
Armstrong.
> >
> >>Does Armstrong have the yellow jersey stay with him to pace him in his purgatory, or let him
> >>mark Ullrich. Would he let his teammate win to block Ullrich as Anquitel did with Aimar to
> >>Poulidor?
>
>
> I disagree with James, assuming Armstrong lost big time to his rivals. If he didn't, Armstrong's
> still the man. They won't throw away a chance at the yellow for a lost cause in Armstrong.
>
>
> Dan

Johann would certainly have a tough call to make. I think he would look at whether it was just a
possible single bad day or more of an irrecoverable decline and how much Armstrong could be
projected to loose. I agree that Johann would not give up an overall winner for the sake of
Armstrong as "leader." I suppose he could give Paul Kochlie (sp?) a call and ask for his advice.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > She was blond and thin. In person they didn't look even nearly alike.
>
> Tom, take a look at some of the photos of Lance's mother and Kristin taken after he won his
> first Tour. He married a mother look-a-like.

I saw them both in person. Believe me, they don't look alike any more than you look like
Eddy Merckx.

> > And do you think that winning by dogged application is wrong?
>
> I would be nice to see him try to win LBL again as he did in 2003.
That
> was histerical to watch with all of Lance's tactical nous. It's my
favorite
> dvd for now.

Well, big surprise, Lance ain't a man for the classics now. So what? How many Tours has Museeuw
won again?

 

[Dan Connelly]

B. Lafferty wrote:

> Paul Kochlie (sp?)
Paul Koechli

> loose.
lose.

Nice link:
http://patclearyart.co.uk/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=72&osCsid=5ad5c208bf634f0e0bcf60dddbac3d9b

The web site identifies Hinault, Kelly, and LeMond. However, it leaves the third guy unidentified. I
think Roche is a good guess -- La Redoute was green?

The final GC that year: http://www.danielhagen.de/tour/tour1985.html Endklassement der Tour de
France 1985
1. Bernard Hinault (FRA) - La Vie Claire 113h24:23
2. Greg Lemond (USA) - La Vie Claire +1:42
3. Stephen Roche (IRL) - La Redoute +4:29
4. Sean Kelly (IRL) - Skil +6:26
5. Phil Anderson (AUS) - Panasonic +7:44
6. Pedro Delgado (ESP) - Orbea +11:53
7. Luis Herrera (COL) - Cafe de Colombia +12:53
8. Fabio Parra (COL) - Cafe de Colombia +13:35
9. Eduardo Chozas (ESP) - Reynolds +13:56
10. Steve Bauer (CAN) - La Vie Claire +14:57

Dan

 

[Steven L. Sheff]

On 02/09/2004 01:27 PM, in article
[email protected], "B. Lafferty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> But in the hypothetical, Armstrong doesn't have the yellow jersey. His teammate does.

As opposed to the reality, where Armstrong's teammate had the yellow jersey and yet and was sent
back to fetch water bottles.

> "James P. Spooner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:5%RVb.442714$JQ1.47705@pd7tw1no...
>> The answer is:
>>
>> Armstrong has the yellow jersey pace him.
>>
>> James P. Spooner
>>
>>
>> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> B. Lafferty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So, if one of Armstong's teammates got in an early break and took 18 minutes, would Armstong
>>>>> work for him or at least not attack him (as
>>> LeMond
>>>>> rode with Pensec) or would the teammate wistfully fantasize about a
>> Tour
>>>>> with national teams? (The question is, I think, rhetorical)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't be silly. Postal is going for the record 6. If one of
>> Armstrong's
>>> teammates
>>>> somehow won 5 tours in a row, then we can discuss who would get the
>>> support.
>>>> For 2004, Armstrong's the man. Anyone on the team who doesn't realize
>>> that should
>>>> take their contract elsewhere, as in both this year and prior years,
>> some
>>> have.
>>>
>>> That's why I said the question was rhetorical.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, Armstrong wouldn't attack his own guy.
>>>
>>> Nor would his own guy in yellow be in any way protected. We've already
>> see
>>> that in a Tour. But if his own guy was his best supporting climber, he'd
>> use
>>> him as much as possible in the mountains and take time indirectly. If
> his
>>> teammate wasn't out of yellow after the mountains he'd do him in in a
> time
>>> trial. So, I guess I'm not certain how you're defining "attack."
>>>
>>> Let me pose another hypothetical. Lets say one of his climbers is in
>> yellow
>>> by 18 minutes due to covering an early break and has that 18 min on the first mountain stage.
>>> Armstong, showing his age terribly, has an awful
>> day
>>> in the mountains; Ullrich, Hamilton, and Beloki climb away from
>> Armstrong.
>>> Does Armstrong have the yellow jersey stay with him to pace him in his purgatory, or let him
>>> mark Ullrich. Would he let his teammate win to
>> block
>>> Ullrich as Anquitel did with Aimar to Poulidor?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti
ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe
dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:N%[email protected]...
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > She was blond and thin. In person they didn't look even nearly alike.
> >
> > Tom, take a look at some of the photos of Lance's mother and Kristin taken after he won his
> > first Tour. He married a mother look-a-like.
>
> I saw them both in person. Believe me, they don't look alike any more than you look like
> Eddy Merckx.

But....but....people keep telling me how great I look having lost all that weight. "Eddy, you
look great! How about an autograph?" Then they ask why I'm riding a Marin.

>
> > > And do you think that winning by dogged application is wrong?
> >
> > I would be nice to see him try to win LBL again as he did in 2003.
> That
> > was histerical to watch with all of Lance's tactical nous. It's my
> favorite
> > dvd for now.
>
> Well, big surprise, Lance ain't a man for the classics now. So what? How many Tours has Museeuw
> won again?

Apparently, he thought he could win LBL. With some tactical smarts he might well have. As it
is, his performance was one of the more amusing of the year. Perhaps he's been hanging too much
with George.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>
> > Paul Kochlie (sp?)
> Paul Koechli
>
> > loose.
> lose.
>
> Nice link:
>
http://patclearyart.co.uk/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=72&osCsid=5ad5c208bf634f0e0bcf60dddbac3d9b
>
> The web site identifies Hinault, Kelly, and LeMond. However, it leaves
the third
> guy unidentified. I think Roche is a good guess -- La Redoute was green?

I thnk so. Your gues is a goode won.

Thanks for the editin.