Armstrong miscalculation?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Andy Coggan, Apr 20, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    From VN report on the final moments of the Amstel Gold race:

    "Catching the others by surprise, Vinokourov took an immediate 50-meter advantage after negotiating
    a series of turns in the village of Sibbe. Boogerd jumped hard in pursuit, but Armstrong was right
    on his wheel. The Dutchman slowed, then tried again. But his American shadow again thwarted the
    effort - while Vinokourov was moving 10 seconds clear as he slalomed his way down the Sibbergrubbe
    hill into Valkenberg."

    So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question is,
    was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he
    just not have the legs to win himself?
     
    Tags:


  2. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > From VN report on the final moments of the Amstel Gold race:
    >
    > "Catching the others by surprise, Vinokourov took an immediate 50-meter advantage after
    > negotiating a series of turns in the village of Sibbe. Boogerd jumped hard in pursuit, but
    > Armstrong was right on his wheel. The Dutchman slowed, then tried again. But his American shadow
    > again thwarted the effort - while Vinokourov was moving 10 seconds clear as he slalomed his way
    > down the Sibbergrubbe hill into Valkenberg."
    >
    > So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question is,
    > was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he
    > just not have the legs to win himself?

    One would think that he would have marked the recent winner of Paris-Nice when Vino attacked Dave
     
  3. Woogoogle

    Woogoogle Guest

    "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > From VN report on the final moments of the Amstel Gold race:

    > > So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question
    > > is, was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or
    > > did he just not have the legs to win himself?
    >
    >
    > One would think that he would have marked the recent winner of Paris-Nice when Vino attacked Dave

    OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on
    Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?
     
  4. Stan Cox

    Stan Cox Guest

    "WooGoogle" <[email protected]> wrote in message <snip>
    >
    > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on
    > Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?

    This is how it looked to me at the time. The rest of the group didnt want to chase him down and
    Armstrong was unwilling to tow everyone else back up. I would have done the same... Given the talent
    of course :) All the best

    Stan Cox
     
  5. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    [email protected] (WooGoogle) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > From VN report on the final moments of the Amstel Gold race:
    >
    > > > So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question
    > > > is, was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20),
    > > > or did he just not have the legs to win himself?
    > >
    > >
    > > One would think that he would have marked the recent winner of Paris-Nice when Vino
    > > attacked Dave
    >
    > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on
    > Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?

    I think this is the reason indeed
     
  6. > > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on
    > > Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?
    >
    > I think this is the reason indeed

    Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and not hold grudge for something
    that happened years ago, especially since Boogerd never did anything wrong, he just practised basic
    team tactics.
     
  7. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Oscar Mannheim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting
    > > > on Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?
    > >
    > > I think this is the reason indeed
    >
    > Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and not hold grudge for something
    > that happened years ago, especially since
    Boogerd
    > never did anything wrong, he just practised basic team tactics.

    I have to agree with you. Can you imagine how Armstrong's teammates feel after working their butt
    off all day to put him into position to win, then not only does he play the "anybody but Boogerd"
    game, but then doesn't even contest the final sprint?

    Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that he
    thought Vinokourov would come back w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.

    Andy Coggan
     
  8. > > > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting
    > > > on Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?
    > >
    > > I think this is the reason indeed
    >
    > Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and not hold grudge for something
    > that happened years ago, especially since
    Boogerd
    > never did anything wrong, he just practised basic team tactics.
    >

    So Post and Raas never carried anything like this into their Panasonic and Kwantum teams racing?
    Gitane and La Vie Claire? Saronni and Moser?

    Your memory is one of convenience.

    -Chris Mitchell -annoyed
     
  9. This time, he was making
    > > > sure it wasn't Boogerd?
    > >
    > > I think this is the reason indeed
    >
    > Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and not hold grudge for something
    > that happened years ago,

    I'm all for negative racing. Happens all the time around here in my locality. Negative racing
    (anyone but him), seems to be more of a motivator than winning.
     
  10. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    "WooGoogle" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on
    > Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?

    exactly, anyone could win but boogard. he was making sure of that. he doesnt like boogard too much
    for some reason...
     
  11. "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    <snip>

    > I have to agree with you. Can you imagine how Armstrong's teammates feel after working their butt
    > off all day to put him into position to win, then not only does he play the "anybody but Boogerd"
    > game, but then doesn't even contest the final sprint?
    >
    > Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that he
    > thought Vinokourov would come back
    > w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.
    >
    > Andy Coggan

    Maybe Armstrong was just cooked? Or maybe he was just feigning to be cooked so the others
    would chase?
     
  12. Bart

    Bart Guest

    Lance had seen correctly Boogerd was the strongest in the race. He marked him and made sure he
    didn't miss any move from him. Very professional.

    BRAVO !!!!!!!!

    Boogerd just missed a teammate in the final kms. Rabobank's riders were wasted too early, again, if
    I may say. Freire missed the key move, although he was at the front shortly before it happened.
    Usually Rabo have 3-4 irons in there at the end of the Amstel, like when Boogerd could pull a
    Raleigh on Lance.

    In the final lead group I saw many, maybe all riders do what they should have done. But of course, a
    complex and interesting finale gives enough scope for chattering on in hindsight.
     
  13. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Bart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Lance had seen correctly Boogerd was the strongest in the race. He marked him and made sure he
    > didn't miss any move from him. Very professional.
    >
    > BRAVO !!!!!!!!

    Except that Boogerd was the pre-race favorite to win any sprint up the final climb (which he did,
    Vinokourov just got to the finish line first), and Armstrong's sprint seems to be a weakness. Thus,
    even if Vinokourov had been brought back by somebody else or had simply run out of gas on his own, I
    don't see how Armtrong's tactics necessarily increased his own chances of winning. Seems to me that
    Vinokourov took the gamble that Armstrong should have at least tried (although of course he would
    have been heavily marked).

    Andy Coggan
     
  14. "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that he
    > thought Vinokourov would come back w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.

    Or could it be--heaven forbid-- he didn't have the legs to better Boogerd or Vinokourov? It never
    fails to amuse me how the !LANCE! tfosi always assume the only reason he looses is that he
    chooses to do so.
     
  15. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

  16. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > From VN report on the final moments of the Amstel Gold race:
    >
    > "Catching the others by surprise, Vinokourov took an immediate 50-meter advantage after
    > negotiating a series of turns in the village of Sibbe. Boogerd jumped hard in pursuit, but
    > Armstrong was right on his wheel. The Dutchman slowed, then tried again. But his American shadow
    > again thwarted the effort - while Vinokourov was moving 10 seconds clear as he slalomed
    his
    > way down the Sibbergrubbe hill into Valkenberg."
    >
    > So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question is,
    > was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he
    > just not have the
    legs
    > to win himself?

    Today's L'Equipe had some interesting quotes. Translation is mine.

    Boogerd: "I think that I was the strongest, with Armstrong and Kessler....There's no personal
    problem between Armstrong and me, but maybe something between the two teams. In the TdF, USPS had
    wanted an easy stage before the final TT but Dekker was in the lead group (at Bourg-en-Bresse) and
    they had to work harder than they wanted..."

    Emmanuel Magnien, strongly opposed to the compulsory helmet regulations but not insensitive to
    issues of safety, complained about the course: "Traffic circles, traffic islands, poorly placed
    cars, cameras, and grandmothers..."

    The L'Equipe reporter had also interviewed Armstrong:

    Q: We had the feeling that at the end, you were one of the strongest but also one of the most
    marked. Could you have done anything?

    R: Lots of guys were marked. The endgame was very tactical. Everyone was watching for the
    favorites to jump. It's the nature of the game even if, in the final analysis, it was negative
    racing. And when Vinokourov had 200 meters, I knew that it was over especially since Kessler
    was there. Telekom is very strong on paper, but it also proved itself on the ground. In the
    end, I didn't even try to sprint. It doesn't really interest me to finish second again at this
    race. For me, today, it was all or nothing. However, I want to say that this course is becoming
    more and more dangerous. I don't understand it: 250 km, 500 turns, badly parked cars, traffic
    islands. They need to do something quickly because we were often grazing cars. It wasn't the
    safest day of the year.

    S: Despite everything, you must have been reassured about your condition...

    T: Yes! Today I felt my best since the beginning of the season. I felt good enough to have won...but
    it doesn't do any good to cry over spilled milk. I was happy to learn that I'm improving, that's
    a good sign for the future. I know where my bread is buttered, and it's not the Amstel Gold Race.
    And also, it's still a good indication for L-B-L next Sunday. An extra week is probably going to
    be good for me.

    U: L-B-L is becoming a big goal for you?

    V: Of course...first, because it's a great race, one of the monuments. Then, these last few years,
    this week has been when I've started to feel good. I'm going back to Spain first to recover and
    then to prepared especially for this race...and then we'll see what happens.
     
  17. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Personal relations are as much a part of professional bike racing as they are in any other
    > profession.

    Here is an interesting quote on personal relations from Marc Wauters (rabobank) from
    cyclingnews.com "I did a lot of work for Michael [Boogerd], but it would have been easier if the
    leader made it worthwhile all at the end. That's racing. If Oscar [Freire] was still there, it
    could have gone differently," said a slightly miffed Marc Wauters to Belgian Radio 1.

    Dave
     
  18. "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    >
    > So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question is,
    > was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he
    > just not have the legs to win himself?

    Maybe it is because Lance sold the race last year to Rabo for some work at the tour. Then Rabo
    screwed them first chance they had at the tour. Then lance and Rabo made up (kiss kiss), and he lets
    Booger win stage 16 in exchange for some more time on the front. Then Rabo screws Postal again by
    not working the next day, and puttin two GC guys in the break pissing them off more. Fastforward to
    the tour of Holland when on stage 4 postal let the break go and refuse to chase even thought they
    were in the lead thus forcing Rabo to work, and continuing the bad blood. Or maybe lance just sucks
    cause he races like 10 times a year, but my money is on hate for Rabo. RVD
     
  19. Woogoogle

    Woogoogle Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Oscar Mannheim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting
    > > > > on Armstrong's wheel. This time, he was making sure it wasn't Boogerd?
    > > >
    > > > I think this is the reason indeed
    > >
    > > Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and not hold grudge for
    > > something that happened years ago, especially since
    > Boogerd
    > > never did anything wrong, he just practised basic team tactics.
    >
    > I have to agree with you. Can you imagine how Armstrong's teammates feel after working their butt
    > off all day to put him into position to win, then not only does he play the "anybody but Boogerd"
    > game, but then doesn't even contest the final sprint?
    >
    > Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that he
    > thought Vinokourov would come back w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.
    >
    > Andy Coggan

    I didn't mean to imply he would let anybody else but Boogerd (that's possible) win but that he
    didn't want to lose to Boogerd the same way thrice, so he would make Boogerd do a fair share of the
    chasing, if they were going to chase.
     
  20. Cucycln

    Cucycln Guest

    "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > I have to agree with you. Can you imagine how Armstrong's teammates feel after working their
    > > butt off all day to put him into position to win, then not only does he play the "anybody but
    > > Boogerd" game, but then doesn't even contest the final sprint?
    > >
    > > Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that
    > > he thought Vinokourov would come back
    > > w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.
    > >
    > > Andy Coggan
    >
    > Maybe Armstrong was just cooked? Or maybe he was just feigning to be cooked so the others
    > would chase?

    Wrong I don't think so....let's ask him? Maybe we can't get the truth instead of all this
    speculation.
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...