Armstrong or Merckx
- Thread starter Runnerdave
- Start date
Eddy the one and only.
He obliterated every TDF he ever raced in.
He won a ton of one days and classics.
He obliterated every TDF he ever raced in.
He won a ton of one days and classics.
Eddy for sure. He rode in everything, all through the season, and was absolutely dominating in all of them.
Not to take anything away from Lance -- I have a lot of respect for him. There isnt any doubt he dominates in the Tour.
Not to take anything away from Lance -- I have a lot of respect for him. There isnt any doubt he dominates in the Tour.
Eddy!
"5 times Tour de France winner (1969-72, 1974) and 35 stage wins. Wore yellow jersey for a record 96 days.
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)
Edouard Louis Joseph Merckx was born on 17 June 1945 in the village of Meenzel-Kiezegem, Belgium, the eldest child of Jules Merckx and Jenny Pittomvils. In August 1946 they moved into a grocers shop in Sint-Pieters-Woluwe, a suburb of Brussels.
Merckx is almost unanimously considered the world's greatest cyclist with 445 professional victories. He won the world amateur championship in 1964. Three years later he was to hold the professional title.
Eddy Merckx was voted Belgian sportsman of the year six times and on three occasions he earned the title International Sportsman. On December 15 2000 Merckx was voted Belgian sportsman of the century.
In a career spanning 17 years he was the only cyclist to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a Espana and Tour of Switzerland. He was one of only two cyclists, along with Stephen Roche, to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and world championship in the same year (1970). He was one of two cyclists (with Miguel Indurain) to take the Tour de France and the hour record in the same year. In 1969, Merckx won all three major classifications (overall, points, and King of the Mountains) of the Tour de France".
(No Contest!)
"5 times Tour de France winner (1969-72, 1974) and 35 stage wins. Wore yellow jersey for a record 96 days.
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)
Edouard Louis Joseph Merckx was born on 17 June 1945 in the village of Meenzel-Kiezegem, Belgium, the eldest child of Jules Merckx and Jenny Pittomvils. In August 1946 they moved into a grocers shop in Sint-Pieters-Woluwe, a suburb of Brussels.
Merckx is almost unanimously considered the world's greatest cyclist with 445 professional victories. He won the world amateur championship in 1964. Three years later he was to hold the professional title.
Eddy Merckx was voted Belgian sportsman of the year six times and on three occasions he earned the title International Sportsman. On December 15 2000 Merckx was voted Belgian sportsman of the century.
In a career spanning 17 years he was the only cyclist to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a Espana and Tour of Switzerland. He was one of only two cyclists, along with Stephen Roche, to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and world championship in the same year (1970). He was one of two cyclists (with Miguel Indurain) to take the Tour de France and the hour record in the same year. In 1969, Merckx won all three major classifications (overall, points, and King of the Mountains) of the Tour de France".
(No Contest!)
It is very easy to get carried away with all the attention that Armstrong gets, but let’s be clear here : Eddy Merckx is the greatest cyclist that has ever lived.
It’s a no brainer.
(Look at Ciphers message detailing, part of Eddy’s record).
Cycling greatness has only one criteria – and this is decided by a cyclists palmares.
There is no point in even trying to compare LA’s palmares to other champions, never mind Merckx.
LA’s record is simply not in the same universe as Eddy’s record.
You’d be better off comparing Hinaults, Kellys and Armstrongs COMBINED weighted palmares to Eddy’s palmares.
This will give you some idea of Eddy’s total and utter domination of the sport.
On their very, very best days, I would suggest that Hinault, Indurain, Anquetil and Coppi might have given Eddy a challenge but they could not be able to match Eddy’s consistently high performance level, day after day, race after race.
When we talk about greatness in all sports, there are very few undisputed people who can be called the very greatest in their respective sports : Bradman (cricket), Schumacher (F1), Lindrum (Billiards).
Eddy = cycling’s greatest.
You’ve got to remember that Eddy would start the season with the intention of trying to win each and every race, stage, that he participated in.
More often than not, he did win throughout the season.
It should be noted that Eddy competed against some of the all time greats during his career : Poulidor, Ocana, Maertens, Moser, Gimondi, Thevenet, Anquetil (albeit toward the end of his career), Raas, Kuiper, Knetemann, Sercu).
The sheer quality of Eddy’s opponents – needs to be factored in when considering his achievements.
(IMO : only the 1980’s and early 1990’s can match the same quality of racing stars that Eddy raced against – since 1996, there has been a significant drop in the quality and
number of really top class cyclists competing regularly throughout the season).
In this era, 1996-to present, very few of the top cyclists go “head-to-head” in major contests : LA,in confining himself to essentially only the TDF since 1998, has had opposition consisting of Ullrich, Pantani, Beloki – sporadically Jalabert, Zulle.
Throw in cameo appearances from Simoni and Garzelli, I respectfully suggest that LA’s opposition is paltry when compared to Eddy Merckx opposition.
NO CONTEST !
It’s a no brainer.
(Look at Ciphers message detailing, part of Eddy’s record).
Cycling greatness has only one criteria – and this is decided by a cyclists palmares.
There is no point in even trying to compare LA’s palmares to other champions, never mind Merckx.
LA’s record is simply not in the same universe as Eddy’s record.
You’d be better off comparing Hinaults, Kellys and Armstrongs COMBINED weighted palmares to Eddy’s palmares.
This will give you some idea of Eddy’s total and utter domination of the sport.
On their very, very best days, I would suggest that Hinault, Indurain, Anquetil and Coppi might have given Eddy a challenge but they could not be able to match Eddy’s consistently high performance level, day after day, race after race.
When we talk about greatness in all sports, there are very few undisputed people who can be called the very greatest in their respective sports : Bradman (cricket), Schumacher (F1), Lindrum (Billiards).
Eddy = cycling’s greatest.
You’ve got to remember that Eddy would start the season with the intention of trying to win each and every race, stage, that he participated in.
More often than not, he did win throughout the season.
It should be noted that Eddy competed against some of the all time greats during his career : Poulidor, Ocana, Maertens, Moser, Gimondi, Thevenet, Anquetil (albeit toward the end of his career), Raas, Kuiper, Knetemann, Sercu).
The sheer quality of Eddy’s opponents – needs to be factored in when considering his achievements.
(IMO : only the 1980’s and early 1990’s can match the same quality of racing stars that Eddy raced against – since 1996, there has been a significant drop in the quality and
number of really top class cyclists competing regularly throughout the season).
In this era, 1996-to present, very few of the top cyclists go “head-to-head” in major contests : LA,in confining himself to essentially only the TDF since 1998, has had opposition consisting of Ullrich, Pantani, Beloki – sporadically Jalabert, Zulle.
Throw in cameo appearances from Simoni and Garzelli, I respectfully suggest that LA’s opposition is paltry when compared to Eddy Merckx opposition.
NO CONTEST !
5 times Tour de France winner (1969-72, 1974) and 35 stage wins. Wore yellow jersey for a record 96 days.
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)
The bare statistics quoted by Cipher are very impressive.
But lets just look at season 1973 and 1974 : just to reiterate
just how good Eddy was :
Between 26th April and 9th June 1973 : Eddy won the Vuelta and
Giro, plus the points jerseys in both races and the combine jerseys in both races : and he also won 4 classic races four weeks before the start of the Vuelta (in April) (Paris-Roubaix,
Liege-B-Liege, Tour of Flanders and Ghent).
Eddy won 12 stages between both the Giro and Vuelta in 1973.
In 1974 : between May 16 and July 21 : Eddy wins the Giro,
Tour of Switzerland, and the TDF.
(Eddy won 2 stages in 74 Giro, was 2nd in 3stages of the '74
Giro : Eddy won 2 stages in Switzerland : Eddy won 9 (!) stages
in the TDF in '74).
Eddy won the yellow jersey and held second place in both the KOM and Points classification in the TDF.
Poulidor in second palce was over eight minutes in GC.
In 1974, Eddy also won the world road race title.
I could go on but I think you all get the general idea...............
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)
The bare statistics quoted by Cipher are very impressive.
But lets just look at season 1973 and 1974 : just to reiterate
just how good Eddy was :
Between 26th April and 9th June 1973 : Eddy won the Vuelta and
Giro, plus the points jerseys in both races and the combine jerseys in both races : and he also won 4 classic races four weeks before the start of the Vuelta (in April) (Paris-Roubaix,
Liege-B-Liege, Tour of Flanders and Ghent).
Eddy won 12 stages between both the Giro and Vuelta in 1973.
In 1974 : between May 16 and July 21 : Eddy wins the Giro,
Tour of Switzerland, and the TDF.
(Eddy won 2 stages in 74 Giro, was 2nd in 3stages of the '74
Giro : Eddy won 2 stages in Switzerland : Eddy won 9 (!) stages
in the TDF in '74).
Eddy won the yellow jersey and held second place in both the KOM and Points classification in the TDF.
Poulidor in second palce was over eight minutes in GC.
In 1974, Eddy also won the world road race title.
I could go on but I think you all get the general idea...............
Just looking at Eddy's record in the TDF for the years 1969-1972.
Eddy debuted in the 1969 TDF and managed to win 6 stages (!!),
he won the Yellow Jersey, Green Jersey, Polka Dot Jersey, Combine Jersey and the White Jersey (best young rider)
(Only Hinault and Merckx have won the TDF in their debut's).
His winning margin was 17 minutes (17 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
1970 : Eddy only won eight stages in this version.
Eddy won the Yellow, Polka and Combin jerseys.
His winning margin was 12 minutes.
1971 : eddy won 4 stages in this version.
Eddy won the Yellow and Green Jerseys.
His winning margin was a mere 10 minutes !
1972 : Eddy won 6 stages in this version.
He won the Yellow, Green and Pins jerseys.
His winning margin was 10 minutes : field included Gimondi, Pou-Pou, Van Impe, Thevenet, Agostinho, Zootemelk etc.
Frightening
Eddy debuted in the 1969 TDF and managed to win 6 stages (!!),
he won the Yellow Jersey, Green Jersey, Polka Dot Jersey, Combine Jersey and the White Jersey (best young rider)
(Only Hinault and Merckx have won the TDF in their debut's).
His winning margin was 17 minutes (17 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
1970 : Eddy only won eight stages in this version.
Eddy won the Yellow, Polka and Combin jerseys.
His winning margin was 12 minutes.
1971 : eddy won 4 stages in this version.
Eddy won the Yellow and Green Jerseys.
His winning margin was a mere 10 minutes !
1972 : Eddy won 6 stages in this version.
He won the Yellow, Green and Pins jerseys.
His winning margin was 10 minutes : field included Gimondi, Pou-Pou, Van Impe, Thevenet, Agostinho, Zootemelk etc.
Frightening
Thank you guys, quite accurate answers, now that there is no more point in arguing in favor of Armstrong, I have a couple of extra questions.
Do you think he needs to avoid the rest of the calendar to win the TdF?
How do you think he'd do in WCs, or classics if he goes to race in them?
Why TdF winners from this era are so lousy in flat stages and sprints?
Do you think he needs to avoid the rest of the calendar to win the TdF?
How do you think he'd do in WCs, or classics if he goes to race in them?
Why TdF winners from this era are so lousy in flat stages and sprints?
I agree, wholeheartedly, that Eddy is far and away the greatest cyclist of all time. Just no question, as all of the statistics above demonstrate.
But I do think that cycling is a different sport now. The advent of extremely sophisticated sports medicine and bicycle design has ushered in a new era of precision tuning. LA builds his body for one race, TdF: the hardest and longest one on the calendar. His training regime is specifically calibrated to winning this one race. Competing in other events would probably detract from his competitive advantage in the Tour. In this day and age, when you tune your body to be at peak performance for a specific event at a specific time, I'm not sure it's possible to expect to win across the board.
To make an analogy with running: the folks turning in sub 4 minute miles are amazing athletes, but they're not winning marathons. No doubt any one of them could turn in a stellar performance in a marathon -- far, far above my best time -- but, they haven't built their body for a marathon and the elite athletes who have are the ones who win.
I'm not a sports doctor, and I'm not an authority on the subject, but from I've read, I'd argue that Armstrong is competing in a much more tuned racing environment that Eddy did.
All that said though, for how people trained at the time, Merckx's success is simply unbeliable.
But I do think that cycling is a different sport now. The advent of extremely sophisticated sports medicine and bicycle design has ushered in a new era of precision tuning. LA builds his body for one race, TdF: the hardest and longest one on the calendar. His training regime is specifically calibrated to winning this one race. Competing in other events would probably detract from his competitive advantage in the Tour. In this day and age, when you tune your body to be at peak performance for a specific event at a specific time, I'm not sure it's possible to expect to win across the board.
To make an analogy with running: the folks turning in sub 4 minute miles are amazing athletes, but they're not winning marathons. No doubt any one of them could turn in a stellar performance in a marathon -- far, far above my best time -- but, they haven't built their body for a marathon and the elite athletes who have are the ones who win.
I'm not a sports doctor, and I'm not an authority on the subject, but from I've read, I'd argue that Armstrong is competing in a much more tuned racing environment that Eddy did.
All that said though, for how people trained at the time, Merckx's success is simply unbeliable.
True enough - not only is Armstrong specializing in the TDF, but so are his closest competitors. Many sports have evolved, making champion comparisons almost meaningless.
Around 1900, boxing matches used to go until one of the boxers dropped, often 30 or 40 rounds. I doubt one of the current heavyweights would last that sort of ordeal - they're tuned for 12 rounds.
Personally, I prefer to put people like Eddy, Lance, Miguel and Bernard in a category - godlike - and not take the judgment any further.
Around 1900, boxing matches used to go until one of the boxers dropped, often 30 or 40 rounds. I doubt one of the current heavyweights would last that sort of ordeal - they're tuned for 12 rounds.
Personally, I prefer to put people like Eddy, Lance, Miguel and Bernard in a category - godlike - and not take the judgment any further.
I hear the points made about specialisation and I can concure that LA/JU and the rest of them tune themselves up for one race per year, essentially.
But I think that by saying that Eddy Merckx competed against less
tuned athletes or in an era where there was less specialist
cyclists, not only does a disservice to eddy's record but it also
does a disservice to his opponents.
If you look at the calibre of opponent that Eddy had (Bahamontes,
Ocana, Anquetil, Maartens, Van Impe, Gimondi, Poulidor )
these men are rated in the very top tier of our sport.
Quite frankly, Armstrong and Ullrich would not have the ability to
cycle day in, day out at the level that Eddy - Bernard Hinault, Sean kelly, did.
The initial question was whether LA or EM was the greatest.
Quite frankly, EM is the greatest by a very very wide margin,
as we agreed.
Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain : are at the next level.
Armstrong is at a level below these four great cyclists.
But I think that by saying that Eddy Merckx competed against less
tuned athletes or in an era where there was less specialist
cyclists, not only does a disservice to eddy's record but it also
does a disservice to his opponents.
If you look at the calibre of opponent that Eddy had (Bahamontes,
Ocana, Anquetil, Maartens, Van Impe, Gimondi, Poulidor )
these men are rated in the very top tier of our sport.
Quite frankly, Armstrong and Ullrich would not have the ability to
cycle day in, day out at the level that Eddy - Bernard Hinault, Sean kelly, did.
The initial question was whether LA or EM was the greatest.
Quite frankly, EM is the greatest by a very very wide margin,
as we agreed.
Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil, Indurain : are at the next level.
Armstrong is at a level below these four great cyclists.
Eddy,
Due to the breadth and numerous races he has won. I just finished the article on him in the latest CycleSport magazine. His record is just amazing.
Was he ever under suspicion of doping?
Due to the breadth and numerous races he has won. I just finished the article on him in the latest CycleSport magazine. His record is just amazing.
Was he ever under suspicion of doping?
I agree. We have entered a different age of competitive cycling - an age of specialization. Even Merckx has stated so. However, this also makes elite cycling kind of boring.tcklyde said:
I still think Merckx is the king.
edmex said:
Don't say forever! Eddy is clearly the #1 now. But think about this: He raced in the late 1960 and 1970s -- less than 100 years after the first bike race, ever. If cycling goes on another 100, or a 1000, or even more years, and becomes more and more popular (I can only hope, at least so I can get move tv coverage in the states), the chances are that we'll see another dominant rider come along.
As Lim as said, it's not LA (though perhaps I'm not sure I agree that LA is 3rd tier -- but he's not Eddy's tier for sure). And depsite the wow of Cunego, I doubt it will be him. But I do think, someday, we'll get another superstar, another Eddy, or maybe better.
We ought to hope he has Eddy's grace.
tcklyde said:
I dont Know that the TDF is the hardest, I think the Giro is at the least = to the TDF is everything ecept hype. That is why Eddie Roach and Big Mig ect out shine LA by a long way.....to win 1 of the big races 6 times is a great achievement, to win all of them, often in the same year is an outstanding achievement, that is why Lance rates as a Great TDF rider, not a true great like some of the others. Otherwise the Japanese cyclist who won the world pro sprint champs 10+ years in a row would be the greatest.
