Armstrong/Seimoni Round 2...

limerickman said:

Meehs, I left the instant email notification indicator on - when I started posting.

So everytime someone replies, I get automatic notification in MS Outlook.
I came home the other day with 93 messages from various threads !
Bush V Kerry is the worst - I've been out of that thread for weeks but every
time someone contribtes a message, I get told "ABC has just replied to Bush V Kerry".

Who are you voting for anyway ?
ONLY JOKING - I DON'T WANT TO START WW3 !!

I know the feeling limerickman. I had the email notification on too and I finally turned it off today because I got tired of deleting all of those emails.

Ha ha about the vote. Me? Bush I don't agree with the guy on a lot of things but it's the lesser of two evils.

birdman23 said:

Thanks for the name. I couldn't remember it.

And by the same token we have zero chance of changing yours. Truce?

Now can we all go back to talking about cool stuff like new bikes, how much we love the sport, rider's hot wives/girlfriends. ha ha
Lim you said Virenque's wife was quite attractive in another post. Know where any pictures are?

You know I tried to find a photo of her on www.cyclingnews.com - but alas none was there.
As soon as I find one - I'll mail you.
She's dark, brown eyes and she got a....got a......got a.......
very nice figure !

limerickman said:

You know I tried to find a photo of her on www.cyclingnews.com - but alas none was there.
As soon as I find one - I'll mail you.
She's dark, brown eyes and she got a....got a......got a.......
very nice figure !

Yeah after you said that I searched all day on www.cyclingnews.com to find a pic. no luck.

limerickman said:

Meehs, I left the instant email notification indicator on - when I started posting.

So everytime someone replies, I get automatic notification in MS Outlook.
I came home the other day with 93 messages from various threads !
Bush V Kerry is the worst - I've been out of that thread for weeks but every
time someone contribtes a message, I get told "ABC has just replied to Bush V Kerry".

Who are you voting for anyway ?
ONLY JOKING - I DON'T WANT TO START WW3 !!

It is getting a little out of hand. Despite the tone of some of my posts, I and think most here agree that drugs in cycling are a problem. Either real or percieved. I truly think it is both.
Regarding Pharmecutical companies- they are incredibly image conscious. Part of this is I think is because they make huge profits. I would be amazed that they would provide PED to athletes. Drug company representative don't even like to talk about indications for their drugs that are not FDA approved, though legimite and widely used.
Anyway, the profit for PEDs is probably small, but anther drug for erectile dysfunction- there is a gold mine....

limerickman said:

Cosidering that your hero only races three weeks in every year - all of your points above are defunct.

Considering that the hero doesn't water down his talents, he's all the better rider in the Tour.

gntlmn said:

Considering that the hero doesn't water down his talents, he's all the better rider in the Tour.

Oui.

I am exhausted - I think I need some EPO to help keep replying !

limerickman said:

Throw in the close relationship between Armstrong and various Bo-technological companies.
Armstrong is in receipt of considerable commercial endorsement from these companies - is it beyond the pale to suggest that he or his team may receive
drugs from same ?

Throw in his clandestine training regime and cycling program : typically doping is phased so as to avoid detection but to maximise performances when competing.

Now you're really making farfetched suppositions. A pharmaceutical company wouldn't touch a cyclist with a ten foot pole if it suspected that rider were doping. The ensuing bad press would cause irreparable harm to its reputation.

The opposite would be more likely--that the company would go to great lengths to confirm that a rider is not doping before it goes out on a limb and allows the rider a product or company endorsement.

antoineg said:

Holy [censored]!!!! All together now...

I hate to generalize, but LA supporters apparently think:

1) Fillipo Simeoni is liar
2) Greg Lemond is a liar
3) Emma O'Reilly is a liar
4) David Walsh is a liar
5) [censored] Boet is a liar
6) Jesus Manzano is a liar
7) French journalists are liars
8) Some former USPS riders are liars
9) EPO is of no benefit to cyclists
10) Hardly anybody uses EPO anyway
11) There is no way to beat or circumvent a drug test
12) There are no undetectable drugs
13) No one trains as hard as Lance

Of the above, I might buy #13. All the rest are hard to swallow in total.

That's a stretch. These people can be telling the truth, but Armstrong is still likely clean. They aren't saying that they saw Armstrong doping. None of them claims that Armstrong told them that he himself is doping or doped. What they are saying is that certain events transpired which cause them to doubt his innocence. That's a far cry from having a smoking gun.

The evidence of innocence far outweighs any evidence of suspicion.

birdman23 said:

Agreed. Why do you waste so much of your time replying with the same old tired arguments? Sorry I couldn't resist, I truly meant that as a joke. Truth be known most of my replies are related to this subject and just earlier today I posted in another thread how sick and tired I am of this debate. I also said I was going to ignore any post related to doping and here I am hacking it out. People are entitled to their opinions but the amount of speculation, heresay, conjecture, etc is getting so old. People can make a story out of anything if they truly want to. Some choose to believe the positive and some choose to believe the negative. We are all stubborn and entrenched in our ideas and no one will change that. The thing that pisses me off is that Lance has to have an asterisk by his name but to sling mud on any other prominant rider is uncouth and improper by many standards. Who says Eddy didn't dope, or Indurain, or Hinault. Hell, dope has been around forever. A Brit died on Ventoux in the sixties because of amphetamines (can't remember his name). But now I am trampling on hallowed ground and how dare I suggest such heresy! I am sure if we wanted to waste our time we could all go back through the annals of history and look into the shadows of the great ones and find stuff that could be misconstrued to show they weren't legitimate as well.

Food for thought.

I prefer the old adage--the truth shall set you free.

I don't mind at all trampling on hallowed ground if that's what it takes to uncover the truth.

birdman23 said:

I know the feeling limerickman. I had the email notification on too and I finally turned it off today because I got tired of deleting all of those emails.

I figured that one out a long time ago. You don't get back to people's replies right away sometimes, but it sure gives you a feeling of having control over your own schedule. 😉

limerickman said:

Oui.

I am exhausted - I think I need some EPO to help keep replying !

Get on your bike, ride 100 miles, do not pass GO, do not collect $100. 😄

You'll feel much better.

RedSky said:

He's already on a pedestal, mate. This is his sixth trip. You're just trying to tear him down.

Exactly; I'm on record many times over that I don't particularly "like" Lance Armstrong's personality. What I do is admire the tenacity and dedication he applies to the goal he has set for himself. Many of his admirers may indeed consider him a hero. I consider him a damned good cyclist who is the subject of the most intense scrutiny of any professional cyclist, yet who has not once failed to pass a drug test. Does this mean he is not doping? No. But to suggest that the issue should be decided on the weight of popular opinion rather than proven allegations is interesting, to say the least. In other words, if you can't prove it, just throw the rumor out there and let the envious sniping commence.

gntlmn said:

Get on your bike, ride 100 miles, do not pass GO, do not collect $100. 😄

You'll feel much better.

I did 50 miles tonight (3hrs 2 mins) - on top of cycling and racing every day since last Saturday.

Tiredness has set in.

old age......loss of appetite.........unfit.............(continued on page 723)

limerickman said:

I did 50 miles tonight (3hrs 2 mins) - on top of cycling and racing every day since last Saturday.

Tiredness has set in.

old age......loss of appetite.........unfit.............(continued on page 723)

Get some rest and good luck on your next race

here is a reference on the hGH test.

procycling.comnews.aspxOpen ↗

Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to do much. GH primary assumed benefit is as an anabolic aid (also lipolytic- gee no fat!!!) and it's effects will persist for greater than a week. This is like the London and chicago marathons advertising they where testing athletes for epo.

antoineg said:

Now, the evidence that he MIGHT dope are...

Plenty of might this and might that. The only fact of the matter is for whatever might be, there is an equally plausible argument for why it might not not be that gets conveniently dismissed by the usual conspiracy theorists.

There might exist something we call the Loch Ness Monster. Circumstantial accounts and opinions abound. You'd be hard-pressed to prove that one as well.

antoineg said:

8) Some former USPS riders are liars

I really don't want to open up a whole can of worms. I'm as exhausted as Limerickman is with this topic! Anyway, another poster already (graciously) pointed out that your list is pretty much hogwash. But since you've made the above statement twice now, I'd like to know just to satisfy my own curiousity...

Exactly which former USPS riders have accused Armstrong of doping? Please give the names and site your source.

musette said:

Simeoni is dead meat. The more bad things happen to LA in connection with Simeoni, the "deader" Simeoni is in the peloton. Ask yourself, when LA is in the peloton:

-- Who would want to be in a breakaway that Simeoni is in?
-- Who would want to be seen as being too friendly (or perhaps even friendly) to Simeoni, if they themselves hope for favors from LA (e.g., allowing them in breakaways, unexpected but important needs they may have in races over time)?
-- How useful will Simeoni be strategically on a team, if LA is going to focus on Simeoni?
-- Who would assist Simeoni in the peloton except his own teammates, if the potential assistor thinks he might need LA's assistance one day?

😄

Look at it from another perspective, what "if" Simeoni is telling the truth? None of us know. If he is, then what's the cycling public's verdict then?

Simeoni vs Armstrong seems to be about the comments Simeoni made concerning Ferrari's medical influence/encouragement regarding doping in Simeoni's situation, and the subsquent uproar isn't it? My guess is that Simeoni was there and LA wasn't?

Too many people seem to dismiss Simeoni's word simply because he isn't the 6 time winner of the TDF compared to the other party. Let's let it sort out, then cast stones. Simeoni could very well be telling the truth. None of us currently know what actually happened between Simeoni and Ferrari, including LA.

flintman said:

None of us currently know what actually happened between Simeoni and Ferrari, including LA.

And no one outside of those two will probably ever really know.

I come home after a hard days work and have to read all that?? Whew! You people wear me out. 🙂

limerickman said:

The question was - what was the connection of BMS to LA.
I said that BMS were commercial sponsors of LA.

I asked the question - could BMS also be providing bio-tech suppliments to LA
as an addendum to Antoineg's list of reasons about LA.

By coincidence, Channel 4 news (20 mins) after I posted that question, had an exclusive report stating that Southampton University have revealed a test
for HGH.
According to their report, BMS are the primary worldwide company for the development of HGH.

If they are the primary worldwide company for the development of HGH, they are keeping it awfully quiet. Not a word of it in their annual reports (I'm a stockholder), nor any product listing for HGH. In fact, the vast majority of their product lines are for (get this, conspiracy theorists) the treatment of metastatic cancers, which incidently exactly what Armstrong had.

For the record, unless you think I'm making stuff up as your Southampton University person seems to, their primary product lines are for the treatment of HIV, the treatment of metastatic cancers, the treatment of type 2 diabetes, infant formula (Enfamil), wound treatments, antibiotics/anti-microbials, Parkinsons Disease, anti-depressents and blood thinners/cholesterol reducers/blood pressure regulators (which is arguably the only thing you can say that Armstrong could be currently taking that would benefit him). But no HGH or rHGH. None even listed in their targets for development. Not to say they might not have one, but if they were the largest out there, as you imply, you'd think they'd say at least *something* about it once, anywhere, instead of never and nowhere.

For the record, the largest producer of HGH in the US is Sorono (by far, as they are the third largest pharm company in the world), followed by Genentech and Novo-Nordisk (although I'm not sure of the order there). Sorry to burst your bubble there.

After going over every revenue-producing product line that BMS has to verify this, I think I need to now take advantage of one of their products: I have an Excedrin headache.