Armstrong upstaged by his teammate?



hilljunkie

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Sep 27, 2004
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Did anyone see this coming? It seemed that all indications were that Armstrong was going to try to win this thing. however he only managed a fourth place. Was this brilliant team tactics settin up Danielson for the win as the other temas were focusing on the defending champ? or did Armstrong simply not have the steam to ride away from his rivals and gave danielson the green light to go for it?

So anyone out there think Armstrong will roll along in the peloton during the tour de france sipping beer at night and cheer his teammates on? If he's outperformed by his own teammate. and also outperformed by a nearly washed out aging "domestic" named Julich. The world is going to throughly enjoy cheering lance on to defeat.;)
 
I just came back from GA and there was a rumor going around that LA was sick. Some even said he wasn't going to start stage 5, but he did. Well, i guess, we shall see in July.
 
sooray02 said:
I just came back from GA and there was a rumor going around that LA was sick. Some even said he wasn't going to start stage 5, but he did. Well, i guess, we shall see in July.
stomach problems is what I heard
 
hilljunkie said:
Did anyone see this coming? It seemed that all indications were that Armstrong was going to try to win this thing. however he only managed a fourth place. Was this brilliant team tactics settin up Danielson for the win as the other temas were focusing on the defending champ? or did Armstrong simply not have the steam to ride away from his rivals and gave danielson the green light to go for it?

So anyone out there think Armstrong will roll along in the peloton during the tour de france sipping beer at night and cheer his teammates on? If he's outperformed by his own teammate. and also outperformed by a nearly washed out aging "domestic" named Julich. The world is going to throughly enjoy cheering lance on to defeat.;)

I don't know why LA didn't win, if he could or if he wanted to, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if it wasn't going to be LA then Discovery engineered it so that Danielson won. Does anyone really think that Discovery would have green-lighted Chechu or Azevedo at the TdG? Not to disrespect Danielson, who does seem to really have found some form after a dismal 2004, but this is *the* American race and I doubt anyone wanted a European no one had heard of winning. It was going to be Bobby, Levi, Floyd, Lance, or Tom from the start. The podium this year and last seems to bear this out.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I would have fallen over if Discovery had done anything to get Azevedo a win at TdG.
 
Dude, serious......the ****** level on this forum is high. Armstrong didn`t engineer $hit. He wasnt in top-form(obviously), and helped his teammate win. Simple as that.

Armstrong has been behind the curve this year, look at his previous results. That doesnt mean he won`t be firing on all cylinders when the Tour rolls around.

Oh, Danielson wont do much at the Giro. Discovery will get spanked. Cunedo/Simoni Duo will be rock the house.

Julich`s having a solid season, why knock him? Go back to reading Bicycling magazine, ******.
 
Jesus Malone said:
Dude, serious......the ****** level on this forum is high. Armstrong didn`t engineer $hit. He wasnt in top-form(obviously), and helped his teammate win. Simple as that.

Armstrong has been behind the curve this year, look at his previous results. That doesnt mean he won`t be firing on all cylinders when the Tour rolls around.

I said nothing about LA at the Tour. It's two months away. Obviously his performance at TdG means little.

As for what was engineered, I mean that out of the Discovery/Gerolsteiner/Phonak teams, I'm guessing only Americans were given a chance. Discovery certainly wasn't setting up Azevedo or Rubiera for a win, no matter what their forms.

Jesus Malone said:
Oh, Danielson wont do much at the Giro. Discovery will get spanked. Cunedo/Simoni Duo will be rock the house.
You mean Cunego?

Yeah, that "duo" were really a model of team work last year.

Either one of those guys could win, but calling them some sort of "duo" is silly. With a little luck, they'll bother speaking to each other during the race.

Jesus Malone said:
Julich`s having a solid season, why knock him?

This I agree with.
 
LA is not in top form, but he encouraged TD to win. He helped TD win; nothing happens on DC without LA wanting it.
 
This is a big American race.

An American should win, just like in the movie American Flyers, who wants that evil Russian guy to win, I mean really.
But I dont think the results were scripted like a movie or else Lance would have won his last race on Amercian soil, no?

I would think that there was a lot of show-up money involved for the teams, or else why would 5 Pro Tour teams come over here at what cost and headache to do the race.

I think the same courtesy would be shown to the Spaniards, Italians whatever in Catalunya, Trentino whatever to let them win in front of their home crowds. I think that also since Floyd, Levi, Tom ,Lance, Bobby are all team leaders that it made sense to let them go for the win. Azevedo and Chechu know what they are paid for and one thing only, Lance winning the Tour.
 
I live in GA, and attended and kept a close eye on the Tour de Georgia. Lance had a stomach virus, which I'm sure contributed to his performance. I think he finished third overall, but may be mistaken. And as far as Danielson goes, I think Landis has a better chance of being a future star than he, but who knows?
 
I doubt anyone upstages Lance on his own team. What we saw was most certainly planned... Tom shows great promise, though it's hard to look bad when you have Lance and the entire Discovery team backing you up. Having Lance as your domestique... that has to be a real kick in the seat...

Even discounting any animosity that might exist between the two, I'd have to agree with Lance, in that Floyd is certainly talented, but he doesn't have a strong team to back him up. Not yet, anyway. If anything has been proven over the last six years, it is that the strongest team wins stage races. Just look at Lance and the 2003 TDF - without a team as strong and dedicated as Postal to back him up, he would not have won the 5th.
 
What's to say that lance is in worse form this year than last. The feild is so much stronger this year. Chris horner is **** compared to Julich, Landis, Levi and i guess Danielson. Not to mention Azcevdo and Rubiera.
 
If you have stomach problems, the last place you want to be is on a bike.
So if LA was having problems, I can understand why he wasn't doing as well as he might have done.

The TDF is still nearly three months away.

There's a Giro in two weeks time !
 
JohnO said:
I doubt anyone upstages Lance on his own team. What we saw was most certainly planned... Tom shows great promise, though it's hard to look bad when you have Lance and the entire Discovery team backing you up. Having Lance as your domestique... that has to be a real kick in the seat...

Even discounting any animosity that might exist between the two, I'd have to agree with Lance, in that Floyd is certainly talented, but he doesn't have a strong team to back him up. Not yet, anyway. If anything has been proven over the last six years, it is that the strongest team wins stage races. Just look at Lance and the 2003 TDF - without a team as strong and dedicated as Postal to back him up, he would not have won the 5th.

you are exactly right there my friend....as i said, i followed this race closely, and followed stage five around all day pretty much...team phonak has absolutely no power minus landis and one other...i noticed when they came up hogpen, when lance was in the lead by quite a bit, that landis and one other phonak guy was in the peleton..the rest were stragglers, w/ two of them being the third and second to last! if landis had stayed w/ lance's team, he would have won the tour de georgia i believe...
 
tehpr3chr said:
you are exactly right there my friend....as i said, i followed this race closely, and followed stage five around all day pretty much...team phonak has absolutely no power minus landis and one other...i noticed when they came up hogpen, when lance was in the lead by quite a bit, that landis and one other phonak guy was in the peleton..the rest were stragglers, w/ two of them being the third and second to last! if landis had stayed w/ lance's team, he would have won the tour de georgia i believe...

Ohh, he would have won the Tour of Georgia. Big deal. Landis could win the TDF this year. His odds might be 1:30, but I think they are probably more like 1:15 and in my view he is the second favorite after Jan. We should also remember that Phonak was a very strong team last year. Not his fault that Hamilton and perez got caught for doping. We should also realize that the Tour of Romandie is very important for Phonak so alot of their top riders were getting ready for that. That said, however, the Phonak team is probably the worst on the pro tour.
 
lazysegall said:
Big deal. Landis could win the TDF this year

I respectfully but vehemently disagree. The guy's almost 30, has won 7 races in his career and has never finished higher than 23rd at the TDF. He's shown nothing that would make one believe that this year will be any different. The TDG is NOT the TDF.
 
Laggard said:
I respectfully but vehemently disagree. The guy's almost 30, has won 7 races in his career and has never finished higher than 23rd at the TDF. He's shown nothing that would make one believe that this year will be any different. The TDG is NOT the TDF.

Hear hear. Landis is not a GC contender because, even though his ITT/TTT might be sufficient, his climbing is not at the requisite quality level. Also, Landis seems to have a bad history of losing the lead when he is in yellow. He was a very good domestique to LA, because, for that purpose, his climbing was good and his TTT skills were very good. However, it takes more to be a leader.

And on all the silly speculation that LA didn't want Danielson to win -- Pleeease, must I always step in and clarify the facts for those who can't see the obvious?

Danielson is LA's mentee. LA let him win.

1) Evidence #1: Danielson Bows to LA, Literally, On the Podium

http://www.thepaceline.com/2005tdg.aspx

2) Reports from LA Official Website

Paceline, LA's website, has pre-final stage notes: "Basically, it was the perfect script and then the perfect execution. Dan Osipow called it, “The best tactical race in the US in years. It was like a day at the Tour de France – everyone had a role and they all executed.” For Lance, seeing Tom not only win the stage but nab the race lead has been very satisfying. The plan all along had been for Tom to go for it, his one minute gap having a lot better chance of winning than Lance’s 1’42”. And so Lance had been drilling Tom in mentor-to-protégé manor [sic]: “You’ve done it in testing so many times, it’s now time to do it in the race, time to show you can and will win.” And what was the mentor’s review of TD’s performance? I think that can best be summed up as Lance and Tom sat in the very small press room after the stage, before the mikes went live. LA looked at Tom and said, “That was so $#@!ing money…” Announcer Dave Towle asked Lance if, following the stage win, had he "passed the torch"? Lance looked at him and said, "Passed the torch? No, but I did pass the lighter..."

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/newsitem.aspx?cid=1035

3) Danielson's words

On Stage 5: "On the second to last climb [in Stage 5], we sent a few guys up the road and Lance, he hit it, and it was incredible. Only a couple guys could follow and Floyd was dropping and Bobby was dropping. I went across on Levi's wheel and Lance, he was amazing, he pulled the whole climb and I just sat back there thinking, 'There's no way I'm going to lose this race now.' You know, a six-time Tour de France champion pulling, my idol before I had a bike. It was an incredible experience for me. I was going to do whatever it took to get the stage win and in the last km, I saw maybe I could go for the overall and I just gave everything I had. Obviously, it was enough."

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/newsitem.aspx?cid=1031

"Personally, I'd like to dedicate it to first, my wife and parents for coming out, but also for Lance and Johan and the Discovery Channel team for giving me the opportunity to ride on this team and to be at this race with Lance. It couldn't be a more special thing for me to be at this race and to do this well today - it's just pay back for all the confidence they've given to me. I owe them this and a lot more in the future."

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/newsitem.aspx?cid=1031

4) In LA's own words:

"The climbs were tough today and we kept sending guys and Johan had a great plan and the riders, all of us, just tried to implement the plan and Tom rode a hell of a final climb - it was exactly what we talked about this morning - but to do what you talk about in the morning, every player has to live up to their responsibility, and I think we all did, especially Tom. We all knew Tom was our guy and in fact I've been telling Tom for weeks he best get ready to ride at the front and lead the team because I don't think I'm going that well and I think (he) could do it. He's good."

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/newsitem.aspx?cid=1031

At the final stage press conference:

"For me, I'm just as happy to see the team win than I am to get an individual win."

http://www.tourdegeorgia.com/2005/press_center/documents/LancequotesonSunday.pdf

5) Background Danielson Sucking Up to LA

"I just want to add in a little about Lance. Of course he is my idol, but spending more time with him I really admire him as a person. A fighter on the bike, off the bike he spends every second on something else. He really gives a lot of his time to make the sport better, meeting and talking with numerous people involved to make cycling better for those who follow him. In addition, while we are sleeping, he still is up on the phone working on things for the cancer community. It truly blows me away where he gets all his energy and how each involved he is making other people's lives better. As if all he has done isn't enough, he is still hard at work to make sure those benefit in the future both in the cancer community and in cycling"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/diaries/tom/?id=tom0503
 
Laggard said:
I respectfully but vehemently disagree. The guy's almost 30, has won 7 races in his career and has never finished higher than 23rd at the TDF. He's shown nothing that would make one believe that this year will be any different. The TDG is NOT the TDF.

My main point was still that the TDG is not an important race, and Landis not winning it is not important. There is no guarentee that had he rode for discovery this year that he would have been in the same position as Danielson. Moreover, if phonak still had Perez and Hamilton then Landis would have had much better team support.

On Landis's talent
To preface this, if Lance is in form like last year then there is no race in the TDF.

Landis has showed promise for years, but he always rode all out in the Tour for Lance. I am not saying that he will win the TDF, but I do think he has a chance. I know that there are only two TTs in this years chance, but that means that people like Basso, Cuenego, Valverde, Mayo will lose huge time. I think 3-4 minutes minimum to Jan and Lance. If you want to pick a suprise winner than pick someone who can time trial that might not be dropped in the mountains. That is the model that Lance set for the super stage race rider. Landis is that rider. Of course I don't think that Landis will win, but I do think he has a better chance then a lot of people think.

I know that one amazing stage, where he stayed with Kloden, Lance, and Jan might not mean much, but at least he can ride the mountains. Moreover he would have been very dangerous as a second leader if the Phonak team had not disintegrated. All I am trying to say is that leaving USPS to go to Phonak was not a mistake. Landis entered a strong situation for a lot of money. I think he made the right move.
 
very good, valid point...and yes, the tdg is not the tdf, but it's the only measly thing us americans have to offer...mind you stage five was a definite decider...the stage on my home turf :)....i think danielson is a fine leader, and will be a great successor of lance...landis is strong, but i still just do not see phonak as a team being very strong...like i said...phonak has **** for climbers, minus landis maybe...i saw it in person, and was quite disappointed, seeing as how i have the phonak outfit i wear w/ pride :)...
 
musette said:
And on all the silly speculation that LA didn't want Danielson to win -- Pleeease, must I always step in and clarify the facts for those who can't see the obvious?

Gee, thanks for stepping in and clarifying the facts for us idiots.

No one has said that LA didn't want Danielson to win. The question is whether LA wanted to win. And that question isn't remotely answered by a bunch of self-serving quotes from Danielson, LA, LA's website, and the Paceline.
 
tehpr3chr said:
very good, valid point...and yes, the tdg is not the tdf, but it's the only measly thing us americans have to offer...mind you stage five was a definite decider...the stage on my home turf :)....i think danielson is a fine leader, and will be a great successor of lance...landis is strong, but i still just do not see phonak as a team being very strong...like i said...phonak has **** for climbers, minus landis maybe...i saw it in person, and was quite disappointed, seeing as how i have the phonak outfit i wear w/ pride :)...
I have to agree with you here, I stood on that 25% slope near the top of Brasstown Bald... Landis looked okay.. but I can't say that I saw another Phonak rider that did. I don't know them by name, but they looked about gone to me. (not that I wouldn't also)
 

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