Armstrong vs LeMond

[gntlmn]

I remember riders in the peloton proclaiming, when asked their odds on winning the Tour de France, that the only one who can announce that he is going to win the Tour without jinxing himself is Greg Lemond. He was a great champion. I appreciate what he did for American cycling and the popularity of the Tour de France in America.

 

[moggie]

Originally posted by gntlmn
I remember riders in the peloton proclaiming, when asked their odds on winning the Tour de France, that the only one who can announce that he is going to win the Tour without jinxing himself is Greg Lemond. He was a great champion. I appreciate what he did for American cycling and the popularity of the Tour de France in America.

With out a doubt Greg did more for cycling than any other cyclist in modern times. He had class ,flare and a real love for his sport. It will be some time before we see another patron like him.

 

[dennis dee]

Originally posted by Dazzle

A completely separate question: what's the truth about the '85 tour with regards to LeMond having to let Hinault win? True or not true? (not that that has anything to do with Lemond vs Armstrong)

True! If you've seen the video of the '85 Tour, the protege was clearly the stronger rider. Even if Lemond were given equal chance to fight for the Maillot Jaune, he did not have support of the La Vie Claire team. Personally I would put an * on the Badger's 5th tour win because he got that due to team politics.

 

[La Bombonera]

Well,
LeMond may have been a great rider and terrific ambassador for American road racing years ago; but no longer is he the affable, courteous champion he once was.

Since LeMond has retired he has turned into a spiteful old fool. I cannot believe his yearly assaults on Armstrong's clean bill of health. I am so tired of LeMond trying to stay relevant by pulling down the only American to eclipse his feats in the Tour and on death's door. Not to mention in Trek sales too. LeMond is a spiteful, jealous anus. Yet again today he has to make himself important by saying in France's Le Monde "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret, I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence."

I wish Greg LeMond would shut up and crawl under a rock. Hey Greg, you've been bested - deal with it you whiny tool. You have truly turned into a pathetic curmudgeon.

Good day,
Adam

 

[gntlmn]

Well,
LeMond may have been a great rider and terrific ambassador for American road racing years ago; but no longer is he the affable, courteous champion he once was.

Since LeMond has retired he has turned into a spiteful old fool. I cannot believe his yearly assaults on Armstrong's clean bill of health. I am so tired of LeMond trying to stay relevant by pulling down the only American to eclipse his feats in the Tour and on death's door. Not to mention in Trek sales too. LeMond is a spiteful, jealous anus. Yet again today he has to make himself important by saying in France's Le Monde "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret, I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence."

I wish Greg LeMond would shut up and crawl under a rock. Hey Greg, you've been bested - deal with it you whiny tool. You have truly turned into a pathetic curmudgeon.

Good day,
Adam

Maybe it's not fair to be too hard on Greg. I wonder if that muscle wasting disease he has also affects his psychological well being.

He was a great champion in his day. But who's to say that he should be any less prone to believing in wild tales than the general public?

 

[La Bombonera]

Without any proof whatsoever - ever - I can't see how the "general public" would be prone to believing wild tales. Why should they? No, I simply can't dismiss Greg LaMond's blatant envy as a natural feeling shared by most.

Welcome to the United States of America, Greg. Where one is innocent until proven guilty. And with no proof (again I say - ever), there's no way he should be spouting off at the mouth like he does. Put a muzzle on it.

With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge Greg LeMond of doping as well. I've got as much proof to back that statement up as LeMond (or anyone) has against Lance.

Adam

 

[Bryan SA]

To Greg Lemond
Your accusations about Lance Armstrong taking performance enhancing drugs are pathetic! You have no proof whatsoever and you come across as a jealous has been!! Even if he took performance enhancing drugs many years ago when I believe 90% of professional cyclists did, it is of no consequence! he does not take them now and has not taken them for 5 years!

If he is guilty leave it to the Fench officials to catch him--they have certainly tried hard enough! Your bitter accusations do you no favors Greg but set you up as jealous of his success and bitter at the lime- light that he deservedly gets!
He is the best tour cyclist that has ever lived as I am sure that like in every other sport on the planet the competition only gets better with time! Therefore the competition he faces now is better than you faced when you had your 3 wins or when Indurain had his 5 wins! The competition was better when you won than when Eddie Merx or Hinault won.

So Greg please be gracious and show some class and stop bad mouthing Lance Armstrong!!


Bryan South Africa

 

[Tony Naples]

RIGHT ON!

 

[oldbobcat]

Regarding LeMond's relationship with the sport, I remember reading from several sources how the press loved him, especially the French for his good-natured attempts to communicate in their language. They admired that.

 

[Cipher]

Looks like Greg was right all along.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by Cipher .

Looks like Greg was right all along.

I was waiting for somebody to say that here. I say it in private, off the record, you didn't hear it from me, etc., etc., but--let's wait and see.

 

[alienator]

In hindsight, it's sad that LeMond was telling the truth as Armstrong's Trek/drug company PR pros were tearing him up with stories about how he was a bitter, angry, jealous guy. First off, I don't think it's a bad thing that he only won 3 Tours. Seems like a pretty good record to me, along with those world champion thingees. Yes, I understand he still lives in Minnesota in a nice little 10 milion dollar house, and flies himself out to his little ramshackle 6000 square feet or so place on the run down private ski area he shares with Bill Gates, Dan Quayle, and some furniture salesman named Buffett, who can also get you free Dairy Queens with all the f*cking sprinkles and whipped cream you want. When you're one guy up against a pile of professional liars, sadly some of what they're throwing at you will stick, and the rubes will buy it. At this point, I'm betting Greg has a hell of a lot more good days than bad days, and he's certainly earned that.     

LeMond didn't know he was right before the USADA investigation and decision. LeMond only thought that he was right. Guessing an answer doesn't mean you have the knowledge. Further, for all we know, LeMond could have been a doper, too. After all, on 3 occasions he did win the TdF, beating some possible winners who were doping. Someone could easily say that LeMond "doth protest too much" and make assumptions based on that. I lost respect for LeMond because of his single minded focus on one rider, not because of his stance and passion about ridding the peloton of doping. I couldn't care less about Armstrong and LeMond having it in for Armstrong. It's just that all his bleating about Armstrong was wasted energy that could have been spent fighting against doping on the larger scale. I think it kept him from seeing what he could do and the message he could get out. Alas, LeMond sure doesn't seem to have the same dogged pursuit of all dopers as he did with trying to our Armstrong.

 

[oldbobcat]

I was angry with Greg when he began his tirade against Armstrong, even though I sympathized with some of his points. I think his comments were inappropriate as a prominent ex-rider, industry leader, and partner of Trek.

I think he was duly chastened by Trek's dissolution of the partnership, and his rhetoric has softened. I consider what happened as a lapse in judgement and I believe he learned from it. If he feels in any way redeemed by recent developments, he's keeping quiet about it.

By the way, the confluence of Greg, the 7-Eleven team, and the Coors Classic precipitated their own road biking boom in the '80s. It wasn't as strong as the Lance boom, likely because it lacked big-money partners like Discovery, Subaru, Trek, AMD, Texas, and cancer. But it got a lot of younger people serious about riding.

 

[oldbobcat]

Beyond the doping and mouthing off, I learned to admire LeMond for his love of the sport and the respect he showed to his teammates, opponents, and the press, especially the French, who found his struggles to conduct conversations in their language endearing. There was joy in the way Greg won races, quite the contrast for the contempt Armstrong showed for Ullrich, Pantani, and Contador.

To Armstrong's credit, he once remarked that he disagreed with President Bush's bellicose foreign policy and was not impressed with his suitability as a riding partner, riding trails at the Crawford ranch.

 

[swampy1970]

The USADA can have their decision - but what about the UCI and if needs be CAS. Ultimately, according to the rules at least, USADA is supposed to send their documentation, which is still 'work in progress' apparently to the UCI so they can ultimately decide. If they think it's as full of holes as the Texas district court judge did, then it'll likely end up as a pissing contest with CAS.

I wanna see what kind of public pissing parade that USADA does - as they've already said that they'll post all their stuff when they mail the documents to the UCI... but the other part of me is f**king appalled that they'd do something like that. They're harping on about a rider ignoring the rules and they're ignoring all the rules they're supposed to follow. Due process... not required it would seem.

Originally Posted by alienator .


LeMond didn't know he was right before the USADA investigation and decision.

 

[alienator]

So Armstrong got caught and you're ******-got it.

Well, you didn't read carefully at all, and you certainly inserted ideas into what I wrote that you imagined yourself. I think both LeMond and Armstrong are asses and am not invested in either one. I do think the doper-hunting process is suspect in its procedures.

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by alienator .


LeMond didn't know he was right before the USADA investigation and decision. LeMond only thought that he was right. Guessing an answer doesn't mean you have the knowledge. Further, for all we know, LeMond could have been a doper, too. After all, on 3 occasions he did win the TdF, beating some possible winners who were doping. Someone could easily say that LeMond "doth protest too much" and make assumptions based on that.
I lost respect for LeMond because of his single minded focus on one rider, not because of his stance and passion about ridding the peloton of doping. I couldn't care less about Armstrong and LeMond having it in for Armstrong. It's just that all his bleating about Armstrong was wasted energy that could have been spent fighting against doping on the larger scale. I think it kept him from seeing what he could do and the message he could get out. Alas, LeMond sure doesn't seem to have the same dogged pursuit of all dopers as he did with trying to our Armstrong.

LeMond commented as far back as the mid-1990's that the peloton was using more than water.

I'm sure that I still have the copy of Cycle Sport Magazine from 1994 or 1995 where he gave an interview saying that the average speed increase could not be explained away by "better training/nutrition/bikes......."

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

The USADA can have their decision - but what about the UCI and if needs be CAS. Ultimately, according to the rules at least, USADA is supposed to send their documentation, which is still 'work in progress' apparently to the UCI so they can ultimately decide. If they think it's as full of holes as the Texas district court judge did, then it'll likely end up as a pissing contest with CAS.

I wanna see what kind of public pissing parade that USADA does - as they've already said that they'll post all their stuff when they mail the documents to the UCI... but the other part of me is f**king appalled that they'd do something like that. They're harping on about a rider ignoring the rules and they're ignoring all the rules they're supposed to follow. Due process... not required it would seem.

There is a post worthy of the quote button AND buying the poster a beer!

 

[Bro Deal]

We need to keep the score up to date. The current tally is:

LeMond: 3

Armstrong: 0

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by La Bombonera .

Without any proof whatsoever - ever - I can't see how the "general public" would be prone to believing wild tales. Why should they? No, I simply can't dismiss Greg LaMond's blatant envy as a natural feeling shared by most.

Welcome to the United States of America, Greg. Where one is innocent until proven guilty. And with no proof (again I say - ever), there's no way he should be spouting off at the mouth like he does. Put a muzzle on it.

With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge Greg LeMond of doping as well. I've got as much proof to back that statement up as LeMond (or anyone) has against Lance.

Adam

The thing that always bothered me about Greg was that, with every truly amazing one day performance in cycling I've ever seen, doping has come to light.

Landis: 1 day solo breakaway. Tested positive for Testosterone.
Hamilton: 1 day solo breakaway. Blood Doping
Pantani: His time up Huez, which he did at the end of a stage, stood pretty much forever and might still stand (I thought one guy beat it, can't remember). I do remember that Lance could not beat the time, juiced as he was, in a time trial (he missed it by 1 second). Pantani wasn't ever caught, but his tragic end kind of speaks for itself.

So in 1993, LeMond comes out of nowhere, back from a hunting accident, and takes 58 seconds out of the best time trialist in the world on a 25Km course? OK, he used aerobars and an aero helmet, that makes sense. However, his average speed has only been bested twice since then, once in a prologue in 94 and once by Zabriskie in 2005 in another time trial, at a time where Z was an admitted doper. It's suspicious.

And before you call me out for basing suspicion on a performance, recall that Greg has recently done exactly that against Contador, so it's his own precedent being followed.