Armstrong, why he is a fraud - a study of Raimondus Rumsas 2002 Tour de France

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by thunder, Nov 16, 2007.

  1. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    Prologue - Saturday July 6, 2002: Luxembourg ITT, 7 km

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 9.08.78 (45.92 km/h)
    2 Laurent Jalabert (Fra) CSC-Tiscali 0.01.73
    3 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 0.03.19


    Stage 4 - Wednesday July 10: Epernay - Château-Thierry TTT, 67.5 km

    1 ONCE-Eroski 1.19.49 (50.74 km/h)
    2 US Postal Service 0.16
    3 CSC-Tiscali 0.46
    4 Fassa Bortolo 1.30
    5 Cofidis 1.44
    6 iBanesto.com 1.56
    7 Domo-Farm Frites 2.12
    8 Rabobank 2.16
    9 Kelme-Costa Blanca 2.19
    10 Lampre-Daikin 2.22


    Stage 9 - Monday July 15, 2002: Lanester - Lorient ITT, 52 km

    1 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 1.02.19 (50.08 km/h)
    2 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 0.11
    3 Serguei Gontchar (Ukr) Fassa Bortolo 0.18
    4 Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 0.19
    5 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun) Mapei-Quick Step 0.25
    6 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin


    Stage 11 - Thursday July 18: Pau - La Mongie, 158 km

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 4.21.57 (36.190 km/h)
    2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 0.07
    3 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) US Postal Service 0.13
    4 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 1.16
    5 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin same time


    Stage 12 - Friday July 19: Lannenezan - Plateau de Beille, 199.5 km

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 6.00.29 (33.31 km/h)
    2 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) US Postal Service 1.04
    3 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
    4 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 1.11
    5 Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
    6 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 1.23


    Stage 14 - Sunday July 21: Lodève - Mont Ventoux, 221 km

    1 Richard Virenque (Fra) Domo-Farm Frites 5.43.26 (38.61 km/h)
    2 Alexandre Botcharov (Rus) Ag2R Prevoyance 1.58
    3 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 2.20
    4 Marco Serpellini (Ita) Lampre Daikin 2.54
    5 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 3.36


    Stage 15 - Tuesday July 23: Vaison-le-Romaine - Les deux Alpes, 226.5 km

    1 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 5.55.16 (38.25 km/h)
    2 Mario Aerts (Bel) Lotto-Adecco 1.51
    3 Axel Merckx (Bel) Domo-Farm Frites 2.30
    4 Emmanuel Magnien (Fra) Bonjour 4.22
    5 Sandy Casar (Fra) FDJeux.com 4.28
    6 José Vicente Garcia Acosta (Spa) iBanesto.com 5.15
    7 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 6.41
    8 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
    9 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service same time


    Stage 16 - Wednesday July 24: Les Deux Alpes - La Plagne, 179.5 km

    1 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 5.48.29 (30.90 km/h)
    2 Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Tiscali 1.25
    3 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    4 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 2.02
    5 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin


    Stage 19 - Saturday July 27: Regnie-Durette-Macon, Individual TT, 50 km

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 1.03.50 (47.0 km/h)
    2 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 0.52


    Final general classification

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 82.05.12 (39.88 km/h)
    2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 7.17
    3 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin 8.17



    Armstrong could only beat Rumsas by 6 minutes, with his TTT 2 minute increment.

    Rumsas had his wife dope him.

    Armstrong had USPS meet his every need for 3 weeks, 8 domestiques, plus, the guy had the Spanish doctors, Ferrari, plus an entire year, based around the Tour.

    Rumsas never had any resources.

    Ok, some might argue, that 6 minutes is still substantial, but I would say if Rumsas was given the same resources Armstrong was, he could put together the same performance.
    He
     
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  2. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    The fact that Armstrong had a lot going for him is not in dispute ,as far as I am concerned.
    He had the technology,funding,talent and a great deal of luck since he did not get ill or crash at critical times.
    I all sports luck is a big factor.
     
  3. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Yep, if they were all preped to the same level - it would be interesting to see who would win.


    That's the problem with doping.
    It even distorts performances amongst dopers.


    There is an easier solution : zero tolerance.
     
  4. Scotty_Dog

    Scotty_Dog New Member

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    Welcome to 2007.

    While you're traveling back in time, could you tell my 2002 self to invest heavily in Google, YouTube and Myspace. Also, remind me that I'll be married in a few short years so I should really sow my wild oats every single chance I get. And last but not least, tell me to wage a very large bet with Lim and WBT that Armstrong will indeed win the TDF seven consecutive times.
     
  5. Wayne666

    Wayne666 New Member

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    Armstong is not a fraud because any other top rider could have potentially put himself into the same position of having a first rate medical program along with top-notch doping for the gregarios.
     
  6. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    you mean like Rumsas?

    beg to differ. Wife nabbed. Second tier at best program, 3rd rate preparation re: focus.


    That was my point. No, they did not, and could not match resources nor prep
     
  7. Leafer

    Leafer New Member

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    Not to nitpick, but anyone who is on a first-rate "medical program" is, by definition, a fraud, regardless of what others are/are not doing.
     
  8. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    .......you see with a first rate doping system this is how it was ever possibly entertained that Hincapie could win the Tour. Armstrong himself said as much. With doping you can go far....
     
  9. Wayne666

    Wayne666 New Member

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    Who's to say Rumsas couldn't have got in the right situation or wouldn't have if his wife wouldn't have been pinched?

    It wasn't a secret who to work with or what teams to ride for to get results.
     
  10. Wayne666

    Wayne666 New Member

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    If you were a niave fan O.k., if you knew the score or were one of his rivals, hardly. They were all doing the same shit. Armstrong was perhaps more meticulous about it and deserves credit that once he saw he could be the best at the Tour he consolidated it by making sure he had talented and well-prepared workers.

    I find it hard to believe Ferrari knew anything special to give Armstrong the edge, there were plenty others out there to prepare the athletes.
     
  11. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    beg to differ re: an edge with Cecchini and Ferrari. Why can these guys, well, Ferrari, Ceccho just likes the reflected glow, why can they charge the premium. Why can Ferrari charge 20% of riding salary. Any doctor can jab you with corticos and EPO.

    But they will go at 200 an hour, max.

    Ferrari, at 20% he was taking over half a million off Armstrong. If you think one as parsimonious as Armstrong paid Ferrari that much, for something he could get for a minute the cost, then you are bonkers!
     
  12. Wayne666

    Wayne666 New Member

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    What was it? Artificial hemoglobins, protection from the UCI and or WADA? OP clearly shows Ferrari wasn't the only one out there doing transfusions.
     
  13. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    actually, Ferrari never did do the transfusions.

    Those were the guys in Valencia in Armstrong's corner, the blokes who dealt with Big Mig.

    Now Armstrong, he was getting advice from Ferrari over what to take, and when. And those prac sessions where Ferrari would check lactic acid and whatever he did, but he does have a critical expertise advantage. Otherwise Armstrong would just use the Valencians to do it would not he, he already had them on the payroll.
     
  14. Wayne666

    Wayne666 New Member

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    That is the relationship I assume, which is the same that appeared between Cecchini/Fuentes and perhaps the T-Mobile docs too. I think Armstrong payed Ferrari alot for his services because he needed it just like any other top rider.

    The question is was Ferrari giving him an edge or necessary level playing field, Armstrong did have a clause to prevent him from preparing his TdF rivals, right?
     
  15. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    Yep.

    Cecchini won in 96/97, advising Riis, Bartoli, Ullrich, and also I think he did Pantani.

    Ferrari has won since then.

    Lots of docs do the doping, and do it more than competently, but only two do it expertly.

    There is a negligble difference, until... you get to the Tour and 21 days straight.

    Why have all the names, Riis, Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso, been prepped by one of those two, when, and if as you say, any doc can provide the services.

    Nope, only but a select few.

    Fuentes was a provider, not an advisor. He offered the services. The dope, not the advice.
     
  16. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    I think its pretty clear that Armstrong was convinced that Dr. Ferrari was giving him an advantage over his rivals. Otherwise he would not have been paying so much money and he would not have had an exclusivity contract.

    It is easy to look at Armstrong's pre-Ferrari climbing and time trialing performances and conclude that Ferrari is a miracle worker.
     
  17. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Yep - guys like Ferrari and Cheechini learnt what they learned following years of research.

    The gound breaking work in to endurance athletes was taking place in Italy in the early 80's.
    That's when the methodology was perfected.
    Alberto Cova was the first product of that school : he literally cleaned up on the
    athletics scene.

    Of course, there are many Italian doctors training athletes who aren't cheats like Ferrari and Cheechini, like Alessandro Donati.
     
  18. Gregers

    Gregers New Member

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    Well said, Lim. Donati is an almost unheralded hero. When practically everyone in Italy was turning a blind eye and basking in the reflected glory of Italy's drug fuelled sports successes, he stood virtually alone. By making his entirely principled stance he took on individuals, sporting bodies, Coni and the money men and came under under enormous pressure for years. In the end he was proved entirely right but it has made him many influential enemies who didn't take kindly to having their noses removed from the trough.
    Wish we had an equivalent figure here but I guess the reaction would be similar. Any whistle blower would inevitably be denounced as an embittered fantasist by those with vested interests..
     
  19. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

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    It basically took 15 years for the chickens to come home to roost and do you hear anyone thanking Donati for it? Donati was the one who estimated in the early 90's that 70-90% of the peloton was doping at any one time and that the significant improvements in times in the athletics 5000m around 1993 was entirely due to EPO

    That was always a joke IMO, Bruyneel practicing his comedy routine or something. I know the bloke has a sense of humour. I've seen photos of his wife.

    You actually needed hindsight to come to that realisation?:rolleyes:
     
  20. Moller

    Moller New Member

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