Armstrong's Time Trial Idea?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Still Use 531, Jul 10, 2004.

  1. I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be fixed.
    The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's not safe to
    mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph pelotons. Lance is
    suggesting that an early time trial be used to sort out riders.

    It's not clear to me in exactly what form he's suggesting that the time
    trials take. Is he suggesting that the first several stages be nothing but
    time trials? Or just one stage?

    I think what he's after for the first 7 or 8 stages on the flats is to
    somehow make it comfortable for the top GC'ers to concede the front of the
    peloton to the sprinters. So we'd have the O'Grady's and McEwen's and
    Boonen's working hard up front, with Armstrong, Ullrich, Hamilton, et al
    riding piano in the back, no worries, just cruising along until the
    mountain stages.

    Of course, Messr Henri Desgranges would roll over in his grave at the very
    thought of structuring the Tour to make anyone comfortable.
     
    Tags:


  2. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    Still Use 531 wrote:
    > I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be
    > fixed. The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's
    > not safe to mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph
    > pelotons. Lance is suggesting that an early time trial be used to
    > sort out riders.
    >

    I guess he slept through the prologue, then. That's a time trial, and it
    sorts out the riders. It's not the sprinters that make the finishes
    dangerous, it's the GC teams putting their non-sprinters on the front where
    they should not be. Placing a time trial early in the race will solve
    nothing as the GC teams will still place their men on the front to try to
    prevent their leader from losing time. Boonen may be brash, but he's also
    right.
     
  3. Kyle Legate wrote:

    > I guess he slept through the prologue, then. That's a time trial, and it
    > sorts out the riders. It's not the sprinters that make the finishes
    > dangerous, it's the GC teams putting their non-sprinters on the front where
    > they should not be. Placing a time trial early in the race will solve
    > nothing as the GC teams will still place their men on the front to try to
    > prevent their leader from losing time. Boonen may be brash, but he's also
    > right.


    I guess this was the kind of thing that the "patron" used to sort out.
    The GC contenders used to know exactly where and when the Tour would be
    decided and the various agreements that were there allowed a fair degree
    of predictability for each stage.

    Whether these days it is a lack of a strong recognised leader (and that
    would speak volumes about Armstrong's perceived status in the pelOton),
    or that the Tour is now competitive across the range of riders, or
    whether this is just a romantic view of the past, who knows?
     
  4. trg

    trg Guest

    Still Use 531 wrote:
    > I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be
    > fixed. The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's
    > not safe to mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph
    > pelotons. Lance is suggesting that an early time trial be used to
    > sort out riders.
    >
    > It's not clear to me in exactly what form he's suggesting that the
    > time trials take. Is he suggesting that the first several stages be
    > nothing but time trials? Or just one stage?
    >
    > I think what he's after for the first 7 or 8 stages on the flats is to
    > somehow make it comfortable for the top GC'ers to concede the front
    > of the peloton to the sprinters. So we'd have the O'Grady's and
    > McEwen's and Boonen's working hard up front, with Armstrong, Ullrich,
    > Hamilton, et al riding piano in the back, no worries, just cruising
    > along until the mountain stages.
    >
    > Of course, Messr Henri Desgranges would roll over in his grave at the
    > very thought of structuring the Tour to make anyone comfortable.


    It's already been done. The problem with the prologue is that it isn't long
    enough to create significant time gaps. I think ASO learned this lesson
    after last year's stage 1. That's why the TdF next year will not have a
    prologue, but like Paris-Nice this year, will start with a first stage that
    is a ITT about 3 times longer than a prologue (running the length of l'ile
    de Nourmoutiers).

    Another fix would be to change the flamme rouge crash rule. The rider's
    official time would be the time at which he crosses the 1km line. After that
    the GC contenders, their bodygueards and the non-sprinters can take it easy
    instead of trying to stay in front with tthe sprinters to avoid the crash at
    the finish line
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>,
    "trg" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Still Use 531 wrote:
    > > I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be
    > > fixed. The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's
    > > not safe to mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph
    > > pelotons. Lance is suggesting that an early time trial be used to
    > > sort out riders.


    > Another fix would be to change the flamme rouge crash rule. The rider's
    > official time would be the time at which he crosses the 1km line. After that
    > the GC contenders, their bodygueards and the non-sprinters can take it easy
    > instead of trying to stay in front with tthe sprinters to avoid the crash at
    > the finish line


    This still seems like a sensible rule to me, as it has every time I have
    heard it suggested. But it seems that most of the stage crashes so far
    have been outside the 1 km mark, typically about halfway back in the
    pack.

    So, won't this mean that as the pack nears the red flag, the sprinters
    will still try to up the tempo to hold off late breaks, the GC teams
    will still push forward to keep their leaders safe, and many of the
    run-up crashes will continue to happen?

    It will make the sprints a lot simpler,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
    President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  6. mrbadog

    mrbadog Guest

    "trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Another fix would be to change the flamme rouge crash rule. The rider's
    > official time would be the time at which he crosses the 1km line. After that
    > the GC contenders, their bodygueards and the non-sprinters can take it easy
    > instead of trying to stay in front with tthe sprinters to avoid the crash at
    > the finish line


    Tyler Hamilton's suggestion to Jean-Marie Leblanc yesterday was giving
    the same time as the pack to everyone in the pack at the 3K mark.
    Theoretically, the GC guys could sit up and avoid crashes in the
    sprint finishes.
     
  7. Rick Roof

    Rick Roof Guest

    If they would just use the real time for the TTT that would solve the
    problem. Everyone knows that you have to have a strong team to win the
    Tour. Why not just go back to using the real time gaps. That would have
    sorted out some things already.

    Rick


    "mrbadog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Another fix would be to change the flamme rouge crash rule. The rider's
    > > official time would be the time at which he crosses the 1km line. After

    that
    > > the GC contenders, their bodygueards and the non-sprinters can take it

    easy
    > > instead of trying to stay in front with tthe sprinters to avoid the

    crash at
    > > the finish line

    >
    > Tyler Hamilton's suggestion to Jean-Marie Leblanc yesterday was giving
    > the same time as the pack to everyone in the pack at the 3K mark.
    > Theoretically, the GC guys could sit up and avoid crashes in the
    > sprint finishes.
     
  8. Mapei81

    Mapei81 Guest

    >Everyone knows that you have to have a strong team to win the
    >Tour.


    Not really: see Lemond, Greg, 1989.
    BTW, did they have a TTT that year? I do remember that he had only two
    teammates still in the race by the time they got to Paris.
     
  9. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Still Use 531" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be

    fixed.

    Maybe the Tour organizers should heed your advice and award the final yellow
    jersey out to a person voted best by a group of Fred's like you on the day
    before the Prologue. Then they can drive the racers from stage to stage in
    big air conditioned buses and let them ride ceremoniously into the stage
    finishing town.
     
  10. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I guess he slept through the prologue, then. That's a time trial, and it
    > sorts out the riders. It's not the sprinters that make the finishes
    > dangerous, it's the GC teams putting their non-sprinters on the front

    where
    > they should not be. Placing a time trial early in the race will solve
    > nothing as the GC teams will still place their men on the front to try to
    > prevent their leader from losing time. Boonen may be brash, but he's also
    > right.


    So, Kyle, are you trying to be even more naive than the other dink?

    Those "non-sprinters" are called "leadout trains". Or maybe you think that
    guys like Scott Sunderland shouldn't be contending for stage wins?

    I suppose you guys can never enjoy a single thing. If it all goes according
    to plan it's a boring race and if it's exciting and dangerous it's a
    needless danger to the sprinters (the fvvking SPRINTERS? Those nutjobs that
    have to be carried over every rise in the ground by their teams in the first
    place?)
     
  11. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Still Use 531" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be

    fixed.
    > The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's not safe to
    > mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph pelotons. Lance is
    > suggesting that an early time trial be used to sort out riders.
    >
    > It's not clear to me in exactly what form he's suggesting that the time
    > trials take. Is he suggesting that the first several stages be nothing but
    > time trials? Or just one stage?
    >
    > I think what he's after for the first 7 or 8 stages on the flats is to
    > somehow make it comfortable for the top GC'ers to concede the front of the
    > peloton to the sprinters. So we'd have the O'Grady's and McEwen's and
    > Boonen's working hard up front, with Armstrong, Ullrich, Hamilton, et al
    > riding piano in the back, no worries, just cruising along until the
    > mountain stages.
    >
    > Of course, Messr Henri Desgranges would roll over in his grave at the very
    > thought of structuring the Tour to make anyone comfortable.


    It's called racing and Mr. Lance should quit his whinning. I think his
    comments tell us more about the pressure he's feeling and what it's doing to
    his psyche than anything else. Maybe he'll crack his shoulder like Tyler
    last year and he'll have an opportunity to show us all how well he can
    tolerate pain.
     
  12. On 11 Jul 2004 18:53:10 GMT, [email protected] (Mapei81) wrote:

    >>Everyone knows that you have to have a strong team to win the
    >>Tour.

    >
    >Not really: see Lemond, Greg, 1989.
    >BTW, did they have a TTT that year? I do remember that he had only two
    >teammates still in the race by the time they got to Paris.


    Stage 2 - 46kmTTT. Lemond lost 56" to Fignon.

    Regards!
    Stephen
     
  13. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Rick Roof" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Everyone knows that you have to have a strong team to win the
    > Tour.


    I wonder if anyone told that to Greg LeMond in '89, Pedro Delgato in 1988 or
    Stephen Roche in '87?
     
  14. Lance's idea seems ridiculous, but the course seems incredibly
    dangerous so far. It seems like something could be done to make the
    race a bit safer. Crashes aren't the objective.

    On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:28:32 GMT, Still Use 531 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >I agree with Armstrong that the current Tour is broken and should be fixed.
    >The daily sprints in the first week are entertaining but it's not safe to
    >mix the sprinters with the GC'ers in these mass 40mph pelotons. Lance is
    >suggesting that an early time trial be used to sort out riders.
    >
    >It's not clear to me in exactly what form he's suggesting that the time
    >trials take. Is he suggesting that the first several stages be nothing but
    >time trials? Or just one stage?
    >
    >I think what he's after for the first 7 or 8 stages on the flats is to
    >somehow make it comfortable for the top GC'ers to concede the front of the
    >peloton to the sprinters. So we'd have the O'Grady's and McEwen's and
    >Boonen's working hard up front, with Armstrong, Ullrich, Hamilton, et al
    >riding piano in the back, no worries, just cruising along until the
    >mountain stages.
    >
    >Of course, Messr Henri Desgranges would roll over in his grave at the very
    >thought of structuring the Tour to make anyone comfortable.
     
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