Article- an incredibly misinformed idiot...

Mike:

Very nicely stated.

Please let us know if he responds to your comments.

Kerry

"Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Scott Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

To hell with it. Everyone here knows the facts, and Eric Peters is obviously too stupid to care.

While you may be right, Scott, I decided to try anyway. I sent him the following letter. I will
update the group.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Quoted message said:

-----------------------------------------

I'm writing in response to
channels.netscape.compackage.jspOpen ↗ a piece you wrote on
bicycles sharing the road.

There are some good points in the article. Certainly there are bicyclists who ride incorrectly,
and a couple of traffic tickets might go far toward improving that. In particular, only idiots
bike at night without at least the legal minimum lights and reflectors.

However, there's a general attitude in your article, that everybody should get the heck out of my
way. There's also, in my opinion, a general misunderstanding of who is in whose way.

Are good cyclists really in anybody's way, any more than they would be if they were just one more
solo driver in a Lincoln Navigator? That's

doubtful.

Quoted message said:

I'm in a suburban household with 4 drivers and two cars, and personally seldom drive. Instead, I
bike over 4,000 miles a year (and take the train

to

Quoted message said:

work).

Back when I was in a car for those miles, I was one more solo driver clogging up the road. I was
the last car that made it through a traffic light, so you had to wait. I took up the last close
parking spot, so you had to park a block away. You had to wait 5 minutes for me while I

finished

Quoted message said:

pumping my gas. I parked in front of your house, which was a real pain in the butt because nobody
wants to see a red 1982 Ford Escort out their

front

Quoted message said:

window. My buddies and I drove to the gym during evening rush hour, and caused you to be an extra
minute late every working day because of the jam near the gym. I got rid of my pennies at the toll
booth, which made the automatic counter take an extra ten seconds counting them. My car alarm went
off when you leaned on my car to tie your shoe. Every other month, I hit the "panic button"
instead of the "door unlock" and it took me 20 seconds to figure out how to turn it off. I drove
the speed limit in the left lane of the expressway.

I was Everyman in a white minivan. You didn't notice ME, because there

were

Quoted message said:

so many of ME, and because I was YOU, too.

On my bike, I'm noticeable because I'm different, just like you notice the neighbor who owns a
yellow Corvette. But am I really in your way any more than I was then? No. I'm just more visible.
(and in a lot better shape

than

Quoted message said:

I used to be)

Mike Kruger reply address: MikeKr at AOL dot COM

"long-run" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ASxjb.88981$a16.2983@lakeread01...

Quoted message said:

channels.netscape.compackage.jspOpen ↗

I can't see that the guy is necessarily misinformed nor an idiot. He stated some facts. That all of
them happen to be negative when seen from the perspective highway drivers, is irrelevant.

I used to live on a road that was popular with the roadies. Daily, during the latter stages of
rush-hour, there would be a huge group of riders with a line of cars behind them.

It is likely that someone in that line of cars was becoming impatient (every day?). Whether that's
right or wrong, is hard to point fingers at because every one of us is guilty of impatience with
someone else that was slowing us down at some time or another.

What can we as riders do to help this?

My recommendations would be:

1. Work to get REAL bike lanes on designated routes.

2. Ensure we take the realities of others' lives into consideration when we ride. Especially, in
groups, where we are much more difficult to pass.*

3. When planning large group rides that travel through constricted areas where traffic build up is
likely, plan for an off-the-main-drag loop (or something) to allow those riders a safe pass.

4. Ride a fat-tire bike in the woods more often. The view is better, you'll use more muscles, and
might even get a little mud on ya'.

*I personally, ignore the fact that we "have just as much right to be there as they do". It's
consideration of others that's important to me, regardless of their rights/behavior/etc. Sometimes
we get so caught up in our right to be there that we forget that there are parents going to pick up
kids, trying to get home to their family, etc. in those cars. They have busy lives just like us.

a.

In article <[email hidden]>, andrew smith

Quoted message said:

What can we as riders do to help this?

My recommendations would be:

1. Work to get REAL bike lanes on designated routes.

2. Ensure we take the realities of others' lives into consideration when we ride. Especially, in
groups, where we are much more difficult to pass.*

3. When planning large group rides that travel through constricted areas where traffic build up is
likely, plan for an off-the-main-drag loop (or something) to allow those riders a safe pass.

4. Ride a fat-tire bike in the woods more often. The view is better, you'll use more muscles, and
might even get a little mud on ya'.

*I personally, ignore the fact that we "have just as much right to be there as they do". It's
consideration of others that's important to me, regardless of their rights/behavior/etc. Sometimes
we get so caught up in our right to be there that we forget that there are parents going to pick up
kids, trying to get home to their family, etc. in those cars. They have busy lives just like us.

I agree consideration can avoid a lot of trouble with motorists, and I try to avoid being in the way
unnecessarily. I look around, I use hand signals, I yield to cars when they deserve it. But my
willingness to concede the road to cars is going to end at the paint stripe that separates the toy
lane from the vehicle lane. Like a shoulder I may use it when it suits me, and likewise I am going
to be in the lane of traffic when it suits me - that's pretty much all the time I feel like riding
full speed and not getting doored, or cut off, or popping in and out of traffic to avoid pedestrians
or cars stopped in the toy lane. Better to pick your line and stick to it. That means riding in the
street with the cars most of the time. The toy lane is a tool for drivers to use to try to force
bikes off the road entirely. That is not a conspiracy theory - it's an observation. The toy lane
doesn't improve my safety or mobility so I have little use for it. It also encourages pedestrians to
walk in the street - ie, a wide curb lane with no toy lane stripe will leave me with just as much
room to keep clear of cars, and fewer pedestrians to avoid. It also avoids surprising auto drivers
when they find me on the "wrong" side of the stripe.

(Tom Keats) said:

I'm still using NS 4.5, under Linux compatibility on FreeBSD. If it tries to load sites that
generate too many popups, it commits harikuri. I've grown to like that effect; it serves as a
warning that my time is about to be wasted.

You need Opera...they make that for Linux, ought to run under Linux compatibility. It allows you to
disallow all popups, or just allow requested popups...

Quoted message said:

cheers, & alias cleanns='rm ~/.netscape/lock ~/netscape.core'

When I used netscape in Linux, I did almost the same thing: alias ns='rm ~/.netscape/lock; netscape'
I didn't bother with the core file since it ran regardless of the existance of that file...

Quoted message said:

Tom

--
Rick Onanian

"long-run" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<ASxjb.88981$a16.2983@lakeread01>...

Quoted message said:

channels.netscape.compackage.jspOpen ↗

Yes, this guy doesn't have much of a clue. Still, although he's a bit mixed up, the article did make
me ask myself a few questions. These are just questions, I don't have the answers.

Cyclists usually buy headlights as aftermarket equipment, and are generally required to use them
after dark, a fact that is missed by Peters. However, we (myself and the other cyclists I know)
usually leave them off the bike if we know we'll be back before dark. Motor vehicles are required to
turn on their lights when the visibility gets bad due to weather; the rule of thumb is that if you
need to use your wipers, then your headlights must be on. So if I'm caught in the rain on my bike in
the middle of the day, am I required to have a headlight? Should I be?

As far as I know, although headlights are usually required by law for bicycles, the only legal
requirement for the rear of the bike is a reflector. I always use a tailight anyway. Are there
places where this is mandatory? Shouldn't it be mandatory?

Peters doesn't seem to understand that cyclists use hand signals for turns. It occurs to me,
though, that for night riding he might actually have a point. Does anyone do anything to make their
signals more visible at night? Say reflective wristbands or something? I don't, but maybe I should
think about it.

But I'm not buying those toy turn signals you sometines see in department store bike
departments. :-)

Tom Keats said:

In article said:

I still use NS 4.79, but netscape.com sucks badly and has for a long time. Pity.

I'm still using NS 4.5, under Linux compatibility on FreeBSD. If it tries to load sites that
generate too many popups, it commits harikuri. I've grown to like that effect; it serves as a
warning that my time is about to be wasted.

Yeah, like we need warnings!

4.75/4.79 under SuSE and Slackware go [censored] if I try to reply to an html message. Under Slackware, if
I leave NS periodically checking mail when I hang up the modem it hangs badly, although it
didn't under SuSE. Mozilla 1.5a doesn't understand what 'thread' means and hangs, leaving
attractive smears all over the screen before I kill it. The good part is that somebody told
me how to REALLY kill popups. I also run kmail, konqueror and sometimes even knode, although
KDE itself sucks and I don't use it at all.

Quoted message said:

cheers, & alias cleanns='rm ~/.netscape/lock ~/netscape.core' Tom

alias killnet='rm -f /root/.netscape/lock;killall -9 netscape' alias killmoz='killall mozilla-bin'

--
Cheers, Bev
===========================================================
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed disappointment in the turnout for last
weekend's event.

Tom Keats said:

In article said:

I still use NS 4.79, but netscape.com sucks badly and has for a long time. Pity.

I'm still using NS 4.5, under Linux compatibility on FreeBSD. If it tries to load sites that
generate too many popups, it commits harikuri. I've grown to like that effect; it serves as a
warning that my time is about to be wasted.

cheers, & alias cleanns='rm ~/.netscape/lock ~/netscape.core' Tom

NS 7.something has a popup killer, using it is optional. I don't know if NS 7.xx has a Linux
compatability. Bernie

Bernie said:

NS 7.something has a popup killer, using it is optional. I don't know if NS 7.xx has a Linux
compatability. Bernie

I occasionally use netscape 7.0?. Never noticed any popup killer, but I prefer Opera for most
browsing. Opera can't handle some sites, though.

Netscape does come in a linux version.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and _`\(,_ | Excellence. (_)/ (_) |

Toy Lane,

I like that.

Well Its America and nobody is going to tell you what to do, but I have a feeling that if you
exercise your right to ride in traffic on a bicycle, that the statistics will catch up to you, and
we would like to know if you would like to be buried with or without your bike?

Its not about your rights, its about the way drivers drive in this country.

Americans don't look out for other automobiles on the road, not to mention bicycles and motorcycles.

I drive my truck with my lights on in the daytime. I'm not a safety nut, I just know what kind of
bozos are on the road.

I wish you the best of luck with your crusade for equality with the Horseless Carriage, just make
sure you have a good health insurance policy along with a good death benefit for your next of kin.

On 17 Oct 2003 23:08:02 -0700, [email hidden] (Walter) from

url='http://groups.google.com/'http://groups.google.com/url said:

Well Its America and nobody is going to tell you what to do, but I have a feeling that if you
exercise your right to ride in traffic on a bicycle, that the statistics will catch up to you, and
we would like to know if you would like to be buried with or without your bike?

The statistics indicate that riding a bike on the road is much safer than driving a car on the road.
Further, the exercise of cycling itself can lead to a longer, happier life.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com INSIDE, I have the same personality disorder as
LUCY RICARDO!!

"Walter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Toy Lane,

I like that.

Well Its America and nobody is going to tell you what to do, but I have a feeling that if you
exercise your right to ride in traffic on a bicycle, that the statistics will catch up to you,
and we would like to know if you would like to be buried with or without your bike?

And what statistics might these be?

Pete

Pete said:

if you exercise your right to ride in traffic on a

Quoted message said:

bicycle, that the statistics will catch up to you,

And what statistics might these be?

It was the Z statistic and Pearson's P that caught up with me.

They double-teamed me. I was watching the Z and the P got me from my blindside.

Quoted message said:

It was the Z statistic and Pearson's P that caught up with me.

I actually got that.

For a Pinhead, you're pretty well educated.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

[email hidden] (Walter) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Toy Lane,

I like that.

Well Its America and nobody is going to tell you what to do, but I have a feeling that if you
exercise your right to ride in traffic on a bicycle, that the statistics will catch up to you,
and we would like to know if you would like to be buried with or without your bike?

Its not about your rights, its about the way drivers drive in this country.

I like this. It's a polite variation on the 'you'll be right, but you'll be DEAD right' theme.
Cycling is a relatively safe activity provided a cyclist adheres to traffic law: riding on the
right, stopping at controlled intersections, and using lights at night, among other things. The
proponents of fear hype the danger of riding in traffic in order to promote bike lanes with their
magic paint stripe. But this is the first time I've heard of them as 'toy lanes.' It's a good
characterization, so I'm afraid I'll have to steal it!

alan

Kevan Smith said:

The statistics indicate that riding a bike on the road is much safer than driving a car on the
road. Further, the exercise of cycling itself can lead to a

Which statistics say that? The closest I've found shows bicycling as about half as deadly as
driving, but it doesn't specify riding on the road. I've never heard of anybody dying off-road or on
an MUP (that doesn't mean it never happens), but we get weekly posts here about people dying in
car-bike accidents.

Quoted message said:

longer, happier life.

That's one of the great advantages of bicycling, and I'm sure everybody agrees that it is good for
general health.
--
Rick Onanian

There is a recurrent theme in most of the posts in this group.

This seems to be the general attitude about riding bikes in traffic.

(1) I as a cyclist have just as much right to be on the road as an automobile.

(2) Automobile drivers will find that there is room on the road for all of us.

(3) Life is dangerous, so unless you spend it hiding under your covers, you will put yourself
at risk just going into the kitchen and making yourself a bowl of Lucky Charms. And since
we agree life is dangerous, bicycling in traffic isn't anymore dangerous than driving a car
in traffic.

(4) I can be killed driving a car in traffic, so driving a bike in traffic isn't really
any worse.

This guy who wrote the original article maybe misinformed, but he has a hell of a lot of company.
That's important because the company he keeps lobbies the state legislators around the country.

Don't be surprised if you see a push for driver's licenses for cyclists, if for no other reason than
a new source of revenue for cash strapped states.

I don't know where he lives or drives but I know that if some cyclist around where I live had
traffic backed up on a long hill because they were going too slow, that cyclist would be about as
popular as Steve Bartman was at Wrigley Field last week, and would be treated by the passing
motorists with the same respect as Mr. Bartman was when security escorted him out of the Stadium for
trying to catch that foul ball. Everything soda can, old cheeseburger, doughnut, etc. would be
thrown at that cyclist from cars as they past.

That doesn't make it right, that is just they way it is.

If you don't think that points 1 to 4 above sound a bit on the arrogant side, I show you they do.

I'm going to replace the some of the words but the meaning will be the same. (in my opinion).

Here we go.

(5) I as a motorist have just as much right to be on a grade level crossing as a Freight Train.

(6) Freight Train engineers will find that there is room on the grade level crossing for
all of us.

(7) Life is dangerous, so unless you spend it hiding under your covers, you will put yourself at
risk just going into the kitchen and making yourself a bowl of Lucky Charms. And since we agree
life is dangerous, crossing the train tracks in a car isn't anymore dangerous than it is for
Freight Train.

(8) I can be killed while riding on a Train, so driving a automobile across a grade level
crossing isn't really any worse.

Quoted message said:

There is a recurrent theme in most of the posts in this group.

Yes, there is. I'm surprised you've noticed it. Most of the folks here are basically telling you
that you are either misinformed or inexperienced, Walter.

Which is it, and neither is bad.

Did you read my earlier post? I freaking seriously doubt that you would disagree with it if you had
any experience in traffic riding.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

[email hidden] (Walter) wrote on 10/18/03 12:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time:

Quoted message said:

(1) I as a motorist have just as much right to be on a grade level crossing as a Freight Train.

Bicycles have a legal right to use roads that automobiles also use unless otherwise instructed. It
is illegal for motorists to be on a grade level crossing when a Freight Train approaches.

Quoted message said:

(2) Freight Train engineers will find that there is room on the grade level crossing for all of
us.

See #1

Quoted message said:

(3) Life is dangerous, so unless you spend it hiding under your covers, you will put yourself at
risk just going into the kitchen and making yourself a bowl of Lucky Charms. And since we
agree life is dangerous, crossing the train tracks in a car isn't anymore dangerous than it is
for Freight Train.

HUH?

Quoted message said:

(4) I can be killed while riding on a Train, so driving a automobile across a grade level
crossing isn't really any worse.

See #3

Like I said in a previous post, you have to decide what is an acceptable level of risk for you.
Riding a car across a grade level crossing is not dangerous if you do it legally and properly.

[email hidden] (Walter) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I drive my truck with my lights on in the daytime. I'm not a safety nut, I just know what kind of
bozos are on the road.

That's *really* annoying, BTW.

(Denver C. Fox) said:

As I read the stats on biking vs car driving/riding, most of the comparisons I see that claim
cycling is safer compare hours ridden instead of miles driven.

I don't know if that is a valid comparison or not - hours on the road instead of miles on the road?
I guess it depends on your goals in riding.

Indeed. In more than one posts, I have mentioned that hours spent is meaningful for recreational
cyclists. This is because they would otherwise do something else for the same hours; maybe they'd
drive around looking at the autumn leaves, or maybe they'd watch Family Guy and eat tortillas, or
maybe they'd volunteer in a soup kitchen.

Quoted message said:

I have seen stats that state when you compare bikes vs. cars on a miles ridden basis, driving is
considerably safer.

This is meaningful for commuters. If you're considering bicycling _instead_ of driving, with a
specific destination in mind (or at least a specific distance, not changing when you change the mode
of transportation), then per mile is the way to compare.

Quoted message said:

Also, the stats on injuries are considerably skewed by including bike trails and MUP's where ther
are more injuries but hardly ever anything causing death or critical injuries. Those deaths happen
when cars and bikes collide, generally.

Indeed, those are valid considerations; and they are why aggregate statistics don't apply well to
individuals. Each individual is a different person with different attitudes/wants/needs/abilities in
a different environment. The statistics are also skewed by such factors as downhill MTBers, elderly
riding down the empty street to the store, and messengers weaving through dense urban traffic.

The most meaningful statistics would be similar people in similar conditions doing similar things;
but it would be extremely tough to gather such statistics accurately.
--
Rick Onanian