ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF



> I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> from the ASO management.


>> Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
>> kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
>> Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
>> never a contender.


So the only way to prove you're clean is to lose convincingly? We know 2nd
place isn't enough (Zabel in his past life).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
news:7f7eee78-e7a6-488a-8eea-b68ff0be3ae1@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 4, 10:28 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 4, 7:56 am, hizark21 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> > news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).

>
> > It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> > the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> > to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> > team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

>
> I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> from the ASO management.


Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
never a contender.

>
> Any argument about Astana ticking ASO off is specious, as Astana has
> the right to participate, as a pro tour team. Even before the Pro
> Tour, the top 15 rated teams were guaranteed a spot in the Tour de
> France. Just another reason why the UCI is a necessary evil.
>
> -ilan
 
"hizark21" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
>
> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.


The Tour de France this year is one of the "Asterisk" races where the winner
will only be the winner because his real competition isn't there.
 
On Jun 4, 2:14 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
...
> Bruyneel and Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. '


Do you mean Bruyneel and Contador together are the problem, or each
individually are problems?

ASO says Contador by himself is not a problem:

http://velonews.com/article/77008/contador-eyes-grand-tour-sweep-with-vuelta

“We have nothing against Contador, but rather against the team’s
repeated errors,” Tour director Christian Prudhomme told the Spanish
wire service, EFE. “If Astana doesn’t have any problems in 2008, we
would take a different decision for the next edition of the Tour de
France.”
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:56:58 -0700 (PDT), hizark21 <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> >> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
> >>
> >> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> >> the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> >> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> >> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

> >
> > I'm not saying I agree with ASO's decisions, but you don't get it.
> > They told Astana they'll let them in after a year with no scandals.
> > It's clear. Astana could sweep the top ten in every race they get
> > into, and that wouldn't help then get into the Tour of France. In
> > fact, it would probably hurt.

>
> Indeed. Astana has ****** in the Tour's soup twice now.
> They've earned this.


ASO looks like the bad guy now.
They could invite Astana. The team
they replace could be recompensed.
Astana is hurt by their exclusion:
no exposure in the most widely seen
bicycle race. Astana takes the Vuelta.

--
Michael Press
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:56:58 -0700 (PDT), hizark21 <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
>>>> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
>>>>
>>>> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
>>>> the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
>>>> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
>>>> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.
>>> I'm not saying I agree with ASO's decisions, but you don't get it.
>>> They told Astana they'll let them in after a year with no scandals.
>>> It's clear. Astana could sweep the top ten in every race they get
>>> into, and that wouldn't help then get into the Tour of France. In
>>> fact, it would probably hurt.

>> Indeed. Astana has ****** in the Tour's soup twice now.
>> They've earned this.

>
> ASO looks like the bad guy now.
> They could invite Astana. The team
> they replace could be recompensed.
> Astana is hurt by their exclusion:
> no exposure in the most widely seen
> bicycle race. Astana takes the Vuelta.
>


On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.

Heck, if I were JB and ASO invited Astana at this point, I'd say "no
thanks, we only race the really competitive tours".

/dave a
 
"dave a" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ASO looks like the bad guy now. They could invite Astana. The team
>> they replace could be recompensed.
>> Astana is hurt by their exclusion: no exposure in the most widely seen
>> bicycle race. Astana takes the Vuelta.
>>

>
> On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
> will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>


It's exposure, but it's minimal and it's not visual. If that type of
exposure was significantly beneficial, Unibet would still be around this
season as a sponsor.
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "hizark21" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
>> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
>>
>> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
>> the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
>> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
>> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

>
> The Tour de France this year is one of the "Asterisk" races where the
> winner will only be the winner because his real competition isn't there.


For that to happen it would take a guy like Cadel Evans to that he won't be
racing the TdF this year because, given the reduced stature of the event
without last year's winner, he would be better off sitting it out and
targeting the Olympic road race instead. I don't think that's likely to
happen.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
 
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> "dave a" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> ASO looks like the bad guy now. They could invite Astana. The team
>>> they replace could be recompensed.
>>> Astana is hurt by their exclusion: no exposure in the most widely
>>> seen bicycle race. Astana takes the Vuelta.
>>>

>>
>> On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the
>> TdF will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>>

>
> It's exposure, but it's minimal and it's not visual. If that type of
> exposure was significantly beneficial, Unibet would still be around this
> season as a sponsor.


Unibet didn't win the Giro last year...

/dave a
 
"dave a" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>> "dave a" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> ASO looks like the bad guy now. They could invite Astana. The team
>>>> they replace could be recompensed.
>>>> Astana is hurt by their exclusion: no exposure in the most widely seen
>>>> bicycle race. Astana takes the Vuelta.
>>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
>>> will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>>>

>>
>> It's exposure, but it's minimal and it's not visual. If that type of
>> exposure was significantly beneficial, Unibet would still be around this
>> season as a sponsor.

>
> Unibet didn't win the Giro last year...
>
> /dave a


You're right. How big was the Basso story last year during the Tour? Did it
sustain itself as a top story for all three weeks?
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> And yet some believe that was possibly the cleanest Giro in a very long
> time, specifically because Astana was there, which put everything under a
> microscope.


Every year someone explains why cycling is finally clean. Every year.
Don't get me wrong, that's a good thing. Being stridently wrong about
this is what finally embarrassed Lafferty onto leaving.
 
dave a wrote:
>
> On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
> will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>

Astana doesn't sell anything. Exposure is meaningless.
 
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> Being stridently wrong about this
> is what finally embarrassed Lafferty onto leaving.


I thought it was because his antimatter hero retired.
 
On Jun 4, 8:14 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
> > "hizark21" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> >> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).

>
> >> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> >> the TDF.  The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> >> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> >> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

>
> > The Tour de France this year is one of the "Asterisk" races where the
> > winner will only be the winner because his real competition isn't there.

>
> For that to happen it would take a guy like Cadel Evans to that he won't be
> racing the TdF this year because, given the reduced stature of the event
> without last year's winner, he would be better off sitting it out and
> targeting the Olympic road race instead. I don't think that's likely to
> happen.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


Hey Mike what's so hard about the concept that Astana got put on
probation for a year, and banned from the big event? The collegiate
folks do this all the time, and it's usually for several years, and
don't try calling that "amateur" sports. This **** usually gets
applied in basketball and football who's budgets, and cash take exceed
pro-cycling I'd bet.
Just showing up and saying "I've changed" doesn't work in court for
repeat offenders most of the time. They still have to do the time.
Astana should shut up, stay clean, and make it impossible to easily
exclude them next year.
Bill C
 
On Jun 4, 4:17 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> > proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> > from the ASO management.
> >> Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
> >> kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
> >> Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
> >> never a contender.

>
> So the only way to prove you're clean is to lose convincingly? We know 2nd
> place isn't enough (Zabel in his past life).


This is only indirectly about being clean or not. ASO has a real
problem with Bruyneel and Contador still has a cloud over him. I think
it's ASO's distaste for Bruyneel primarily. If Bruyneel wasn't the
director, I'll bet Astana would have been invited.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
> messagenews:7f7eee78-e7a6-488a-8eea-b68ff0be3ae1@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 4, 10:28 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Jun 4, 7:56 am, hizark21 <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> > > news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).

>
> > > It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> > > the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> > > to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> > > team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

>
> > I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> > proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> > from the ASO management.

>
> Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
> kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
> Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
> never a contender.
>
>
>
> > Any argument about Astana ticking ASO off is specious, as Astana has
> > the right to participate, as a pro tour team. Even before the Pro
> > Tour, the top 15 rated teams were guaranteed a spot in the Tour de
> > France. Just another reason why the UCI is a necessary evil.

>
> > -ilan
 
On Jun 4, 4:46 pm, Victor Kan <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 2:14 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Bruyneel and Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. '

>
> Do you mean Bruyneel and Contador together are the problem, or each
> individually are problems?
>
> ASO says Contador by himself is not a problem:
>
> http://velonews.com/article/77008/contador-eyes-grand-tour-sweep-with...
>
> “We have nothing against Contador, but rather against the team’s
> repeated errors,” Tour director Christian Prudhomme told the Spanish
> wire service, EFE. “If Astana doesn’t have any problems in 2008, we
> would take a different decision for the next edition of the Tour de
> France.”


Yep, I think the 'problem' is not Astana but Bruyneel.
 
Donald Munro wrote:
> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> Being stridently wrong about this
>> is what finally embarrassed Lafferty onto leaving.

>
> I thought it was because his antimatter hero retired.


Kind of related. My memory is that the combination of LANCE's retirement
and Operation Puerto convinced Lafferty that cycling was clean. During
July of 2006, when Flandis won the tour, Lafferty was full of
observations about the tour that PROVED it was finally clean. Sample
posting:

http://tinyurl.com/4bxxc9
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The ASO just isn't making sense. Not so much in the exclusion of Astana, but
>rather their atttitude about positive doping tests. They still consider it a
>failure when they find someone testing positive, instead of evidence that
>they can find and punish those doping. What was that latest thing they were
>saying? That they're going to specifically target certain athletes because
>of what happened last year, instead of randomized controls? I don't get it.
>The randomized controls found Rasmussen didn't they? And Vino? And
>Keschekin? But the fact that those guys were doping and caught is an
>indication that doping controls aren't working?


Why do you believe ASO cares about doping? Astana is just this
season's UCI whipping boy, ( just like iBet was last season.) Once
the battle for control is over and the Pro Tour is dead, cycling
will be magically clean, just like soccer.

ASO wants control of the money and no doping scandals to dry up
the money. Finding dopers doesn't really help with either goal.

_ Booker C. Bense
 
Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
TDF.

Bill C wrote:
> On Jun 4, 8:14�pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
> >
> > > "hizark21" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]....
> > >> ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> > >> news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).

> >
> > >> It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> > >> the TDF. �The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> > >> to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> > >> team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

> >
> > > The Tour de France this year is one of the "Asterisk" races where the
> > > winner will only be the winner because his real competition isn't there.

> >
> > For that to happen it would take a guy like Cadel Evans to that he won'tbe
> > racing the TdF this year because, given the reduced stature of the event
> > without last year's winner, he would be better off sitting it out and
> > targeting the Olympic road race instead. I don't think that's likely to
> > happen.
> >
> > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

>
> Hey Mike what's so hard about the concept that Astana got put on
> probation for a year, and banned from the big event? The collegiate
> folks do this all the time, and it's usually for several years, and
> don't try calling that "amateur" sports. This **** usually gets
> applied in basketball and football who's budgets, and cash take exceed
> pro-cycling I'd bet.
> Just showing up and saying "I've changed" doesn't work in court for
> repeat offenders most of the time. They still have to do the time.
> Astana should shut up, stay clean, and make it impossible to easily
> exclude them next year.
> Bill C
 
On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> TDF.
>
>
>

They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."
Everyone who went there knew what had happened, and if they expected a
free pass then they were idiots, or lied to. The grief caused to ASO
by Astana is huge, and I see no reason for them to make AQstana earn
their way back in by being clean for a year. Too bad they can't get a
study done on what the doping by teams cost them in revenue and force
the teams to pay the bill before getting back in too. This free pass
**** is messed up.
Bill C
 
hizark21 wrote:
> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> TDF.


Of the 30 riders on their roster, 17 were there last year.
Most of last year's riders are still there. Which is to be
expected I suppose, since most if not all of the holdovers
would have multi-year contracts.

Bob Schwartz
 

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