Assault on Fallujah - Justified?



FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
ItsikH said:
I rarely listen to Sharon or any other polititians in this country - they can't tell the truth even if their lives depended on it :rolleyes:. BN is much worse than Sharon when it comes to integrity (poor choice of word for both of them, I must say).
As for "controlling" America - no point in even referring to such nonsense. Maybe he thinks that voters might believe that - either he or his voters aren't so smart. As I said - he can't control his cabinet ministers, how could he control America?
BTW, you called Peres PM - he is not neither has ever been the elected PM! The sad history of Shimon Peres: His first attempt was in 1974, after Golda Meir's resignation, he was defeated by Rabin, who later won the general elections. In 1977 he won the party, then lost to Begin in the general elections. It goes on and on (excpet for a short rotation period in the 80's with Shamir) until 1992 when Rabin won the party and the general elections. When Rabin was assasinated (may his murderer rot in hell), Peres replaced him until defeated by Benjamin Netanyahu. It has been said that Peres felt defeated for the last time - he didn't even get the martir's death:eek:.
Erevtov, vay Shabat Shalom Itsik. Sleekah, the word I intended to use was Minister. Toda rabah
 

FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
limerickman said:
Finally, a voice of sanity from the military perspective.

The Black Watch have been hung out to dry.
They're part of the most professional fighting force in the world - the British Army.
Now they're expected to take commands from the an army which has been shown to be inept, unprofessional - the US Army.
Let's be clear - Bliar has hung out the Black Watch.

I feel very sorry for those lads.
They have no choice but to obey orders.
Imagine being caught in that compromise where you're political masters sell you down the swany and let you be ordered around by the most inept
army in the world.
Doesn't bear thinking about.
Hey just look at it this way. The Wankee Doodle Yankees have encircled Fallujah for ages and done eff all. In come the UK's Black Watch and the Scot's Guard et Voila job done in days in soft hats and proud plumes. The locals say that they the Brit's have saved them the Murkyans.
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
16,130
115
63
Fred C - did you see C4 news tonight ?
Lindsay Hilsum is embedded (propaganised) : she can only report what the Yanks allow her to report.
Everything according to her was going well.
But she slipped something in as well - she said that they were told to report that everything was going well last Tuesday, and again last Thursday, and again today !

Sky report that if the Merkins think they have control of Fallujah, then why are there still raging battles ?
Seems to me that there is some media management going on here - I think the Merkins are fighting hard for what they have in Fallujah and it appears to be by no means over.
 

FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
limerickman said:
Fred C - did you see C4 news tonight ?
Lindsay Hilsum is embedded (propaganised) : she can only report what the Yanks allow her to report.
Everything according to her was going well.
But she slipped something in as well - she said that they were told to report that everything was going well last Tuesday, and again last Thursday, and again today !

Sky report that if the Merkins think they have control of Fallujah, then why are there still raging battles ?
Seems to me that there is some media management going on here - I think the Merkins are fighting hard for what they have in Fallujah and it appears to be by no means over.
Good Lord Lim,
Media management, surely not. The Merkiuns fighting, surely not. They won't even understand the Scots when they speak. They might even shoot them proclaiming that they thought that they had stolen clothing from a dead enemy. Your house must like MCM's. Mission Control. Has the Beeb got an imbedded one in Fallujah?.Tell the Oirish riders where we live.
 

FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
fixit said:
This is a fact Amerikkka will never understand.
Anybody watching french News? They have a few Reporters in or around Fallujah covering the events from the other side. Scary
Erevtov Fixit,
What amazes me most on this topic is that I expected more of the same from American posters, but there is nothing from them of any construction. Of course Pseudo Judeo White ****, did a bit of token posturing as usual. But in general they have not been brainwashed enough, or might it be the case be that the American government haven't put the production together for general consumption to re-inforce that Bush is the LEADER of his people?
 

Ssushi

New Member
Mar 21, 2003
310
0
0
"Attention all Liberals, dry your tears, see a shrink and get over it" - jesus what a stoopid sig.!!!
 

Ssushi

New Member
Mar 21, 2003
310
0
0
limerickman said:
Fred C - did you see C4 news tonight ?
Lindsay Hilsum is embedded (propaganised) : she can only report what the Yanks allow her to report.
Everything according to her was going well.
But she slipped something in as well - she said that they were told to report that everything was going well last Tuesday, and again last Thursday, and again today !

Sky report that if the Merkins think they have control of Fallujah, then why are there still raging battles ?
Seems to me that there is some media management going on here - I think the Merkins are fighting hard for what they have in Fallujah and it appears to be by no means over.
US press was saying it was over then saying theres fierce fighting... come on make up your mind! I'm glad that they are making a fight of it, if it was my country I'd do the same... and so would we all I suspect!
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
Probably what has happened is the various groups disappeared. The fact remains these various groups don't have anything like the fire-power to take on helicopters and tanks - it was the same when the Afghans fought the Russians. So, they tend to fade away and use hit and run tactics.
I think there's more of a comparison here between Iraq and the Soviets in Afghanistan since the Afghan war crippled the USSR economy. But it went on for years.
It will end with Fallujah ruined as a city and the various fighters dispersed elsewhere, sabotaging oil pipelines and wreaking havoc.
The big mistake here is how the U.S. has united the moderate resistance fighters with hard-core terrorists. The terrorists you can't reason with but the former Iraqi Army just resent the occupation. It's obvious they should just hold a U.N. supervised election and then let Iraq run its own destiny or let Arab states take care of security and restabilise Iraq.
I agree with Madonna on that score.


Ssushi said:
US press was saying it was over then saying theres fierce fighting... come on make up your mind! I'm glad that they are making a fight of it, if it was my country I'd do the same... and so would we all I suspect!
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
16,130
115
63
Carrera said:
Probably what has happened is the various groups disappeared. The fact remains these various groups don't have anything like the fire-power to take on helicopters and tanks - it was the same when the Afghans fought the Russians. So, they tend to fade away and use hit and run tactics.
I think there's more of a comparison here between Iraq and the Soviets in Afghanistan since the Afghan war crippled the USSR economy. But it went on for years.
It will end with Fallujah ruined as a city and the various fighters dispersed elsewhere, sabotaging oil pipelines and wreaking havoc.
The big mistake here is how the U.S. has united the moderate resistance fighters with hard-core terrorists. The terrorists you can't reason with but the former Iraqi Army just resent the occupation. It's obvious they should just hold a U.N. supervised election and then let Iraq run its own destiny or let Arab states take care of security and restabilise Iraq.
I agree with Madonna on that score.


Yes, it will be a hit and run gureilla war - which illustrates the sheer futility of the USA attack on Fallujah.
What has that attack done ?

It has moved the "rebels" from one city - and has forced them to move to another location.
It has antagonised the civilian population of a town with no water or electricity for the past five days.
It has provided an image to the world of the USA firing at Mosques (whether the "rebels" are in the Mosque or not - the fact is that a picture of a tank with the US insignia, firing on a Mosque can be used as a great recruiting tool
by those Muslims who decide to take up arms).
The entire war has been a failure to win hearts and minds (tell me how many people in Fallujah think that the Yanks have done a good job ?).

Setting aside the ethical/moral/legal question of this entire war since March 2003 : the Yanks tactics have been wrong.
You cannot fight a guerilla warfare with equipment alone.
It doesn't matter how much technology is employed to fight.
The only way to win this military confrontation is to flood Iraq with troops.
Will this be done ?
Not a hope in hell.
That's why the USA are putting pressure on the British PM for extra troops.

I agree with Carrera - this entire adventure in to Iraq has been a failure and it is draining the US economy.
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
There was an American military man on a BBC chat show this morning who would also agree with you. I think the older American military figures totally disagree with these present policies. In fact, what this guy said is that the U.S. is trying to fight an ideological war on terrorism by using traditional territorial strategies - thinking in terms of linking terrorists to one particular country of piece of terrain. So, he said the same as you. And John Kerry talked a lot of sense so it's a real shame people he didn't manage to get his message across (maybe he was too lacklustre).
History is there to be learned from since the Russians got it wrong in Afghanistan, America got it wrong in Vietnam and the Brits and French miscalculated in Suiz. It's not so much that Americans are dumb but I think humanity as a whole tends to be a bit dumb. As Einstein said, human stupidity is infinite.


limerickman said:
Yes, it will be a hit and run gureilla war - which illustrates the sheer futility of the USA attack on Fallujah.
What has that attack done ?

It has moved the "rebels" from one city - and has forced them to move to another location.
It has antagonised the civilian population of a town with no water or electricity for the past five days.
It has provided an image to the world of the USA firing at Mosques (whether the "rebels" are in the Mosque or not - the fact is that a picture of a tank with the US insignia, firing on a Mosque can be used as a great recruiting tool
by those Muslims who decide to take up arms).
The entire war has been a failure to win hearts and minds (tell me how many people in Fallujah think that the Yanks have done a good job ?).

Setting aside the ethical/moral/legal question of this entire war since March 2003 : the Yanks tactics have been wrong.
You cannot fight a guerilla warfare with equipment alone.
It doesn't matter how much technology is employed to fight.
The only way to win this military confrontation is to flood Iraq with troops.
Will this be done ?
Not a hope in hell.
That's why the USA are putting pressure on the British PM for extra troops.

I agree with Carrera - this entire adventure in to Iraq has been a failure and it is draining the US economy.
 

copwatch

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
61
0
0
Going into Iraq was one of many options. But not the best.

The problem now is - what's the best way to get out for all involved?

Me thinks this is a bit more involved than, "Campy or Dura-Ace" on me new bike?
 

limerickman

Moderator
Jan 5, 2004
16,130
115
63
Carrera said:
There was an American military man on a BBC chat show this morning who would also agree with you. I think the older American military figures totally disagree with these present policies. In fact, what this guy said is that the U.S. is trying to fight an ideological war on terrorism by using traditional territorial strategies - thinking in terms of linking terrorists to one particular country of piece of terrain. So, he said the same as you. And John Kerry talked a lot of sense so it's a real shame people he didn't manage to get his message across (maybe he was too lacklustre).
History is there to be learned from since the Russians got it wrong in Afghanistan, America got it wrong in Vietnam and the Brits and French miscalculated in Suiz. It's not so much that Americans are dumb but I think humanity as a whole tends to be a bit dumb. As Einstein said, human stupidity is infinite.

Kind of ironic, don't you think ?
What's ironic - you say ?

The number of tranatlantic contributors here who calim some sort of military
experience - who have chosen to stay quiet about the tactics (ore more accurately, the lack of startegy) employed by the US Cannon fodder.

Zapper, Iknowbogall, White Luft, Bert/Marion, all claim to have some sort of
attachment to the USA military at one time or another.
None of these illustrious cyberwarriors have had any comment to make about the tactics employed, especially in Fallujah.
Amazes me.

I see Mr.Zarqawi has posted a message on the internet urging people to target the US forces.

So the US flattens Fallujah, yet the leader of the insurgents still has the capacity to drop messages in to cyberspace at will.
There's a pattern developing here : they went in to Afghanistan and the Taliban and Mullah Omar disappear and regroup.. They go in to Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden disappears and regroups. They go in to Iraq and the insurgents disappear and regroup.

If I was cynical, I'd say that the USA could well want the enemy to remain -
so as to justify all this war.
But that would be cycnical.
Maybe they're just totally incompetent ?

Cynical and incompetent, perhaps ?
 

FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
limerickman said:
Kind of ironic, don't you think ?
What's ironic - you say ?

The number of tranatlantic contributors here who calim some sort of military
experience - who have chosen to stay quiet about the tactics (ore more accurately, the lack of startegy) employed by the US Cannon fodder.

Zapper, Iknowbogall, White Luft, Bert/Marion, all claim to have some sort of
attachment to the USA military at one time or another.
None of these illustrious cyberwarriors have had any comment to make about the tactics employed, especially in Fallujah.
Amazes me.

I see Mr.Zarqawi has posted a message on the internet urging people to target the US forces.

So the US flattens Fallujah, yet the leader of the insurgents still has the capacity to drop messages in to cyberspace at will.
There's a pattern developing here : they went in to Afghanistan and the Taliban and Mullah Omar disappear and regroup.. They go in to Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden disappears and regroups. They go in to Iraq and the insurgents disappear and regroup.

If I was cynical, I'd say that the USA could well want the enemy to remain -
so as to justify all this war.
But that would be cycnical.
Maybe they're just totally incompetent ?

Cynical and incompetent, perhaps ?
Ironic and unjust comments from you. You must remember when 100,000 or so abandoned their war vehicles and went home for a game of backgammon and a glass of tea. The Merkyens declared they had won the war in the cause of..................? Now they are fighting battles of systematic subversion from using old letter boxing systems. Satellites my ****, that games for idiots in the Pentagon. John Marion Wayneker is probably sat in his plastic tank in the sandpit firing his water pistol at the cat. White **** says he's to old for Maureen O' velogal, which means his circumcision went wrong. And the other two's attachments to the armed forces was probably explained by the fact that they went to Israel picking oranges for the duration.
 

Ssushi

New Member
Mar 21, 2003
310
0
0
I havent read all the posts here and I'd say that some of you chaps know an awful lot more about this than I do but I see it this way:

1) We should not be in Iraq in the first place
2) We are in Iraq
3) We finish what we started in a dignified, gentlemanly manner
4) If the chaps who are killing us are in Fallujah, we'd better sort it out as we per point 3) - it that means assulting the place, in we go.
5) If the reports are true today about the US Marines killing injured insurgents - shame on them. In reality however, this would have happened in all other wars by all sides. The US is just stoopid enough to let the press come with them and film it all - doh!
 

FredC

New Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,859
0
0
Ssushi said:
I havent read all the posts here and I'd say that some of you chaps know an awful lot more about this than I do but I see it this way:

1) We should not be in Iraq in the first place
2) We are in Iraq
3) We finish what we started in a dignified, gentlemanly manner
4) If the chaps who are killing us are in Fallujah, we'd better sort it out as we per point 3) - it that means assulting the place, in we go.
5) If the reports are true today about the US Marines killing injured insurgents - shame on them. In reality however, this would have happened in all other wars by all sides. The US is just stoopid enough to let the press come with them and film it all - doh!
Good Gracious grow up will you. The Murkyan film crews are there to show 1) winning hearts and minds. 2) benevolent conquistadors at work 3) Winning hearts and minds. 4) kissing babies. 5) carrying a bucket of water for an old lady. 6) winning hearts and minds etc. The filming will be edited by the chief of defence staff, and distributed to all major networks to be shown at exactly the same time.
 

Ssushi

New Member
Mar 21, 2003
310
0
0
FredC said:
Good Gracious grow up will you. The Murkyan film crews are there to show 1) winning hearts and minds. 2) benevolent conquistadors at work 3) Winning hearts and minds. 4) kissing babies. 5) carrying a bucket of water for an old lady. 6) winning hearts and minds etc. The filming will be edited by the chief of defence staff, and distributed to all major networks to be shown at exactly the same time.
Soo sorry, what was I thinking...

What the US really need to do is to move onto Iran now, that way we'll all focus on the NEW news and forget all that Iraq nonsense, a bit like Afganistan...
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
The problem is that the people who surround Bush are pushing for all manner of dangerous policies, such as intervening in North Korea or attacking Iran. The danger is it could seriously backfire or even lead to a third world war.
Of course, I happen to believe the threat from terrorists is genuine - a ticking time bomb that could destabilise entire societies. It's certain that if certain terrorists groups could effectively launch a chemical or nuclear attack (either in Europe or elsewhere) they wouldn't hesitate.
The problem is Bush cried wolf in Iraq so a lot of people probably won't believe him next time the threat is for real. Plus, the threat is so complex that you need unity and co-operation to effectively combat terrorism.
I heard the other day France didn't share intelligence it had with the U.K. with respect to a terrorist plot detected in the U.K. (because of the division with America and the lack of trust over Iraq).



Ssushi said:
Soo sorry, what was I thinking...

What the US really need to do is to move onto Iran now, that way we'll all focus on the NEW news and forget all that Iraq nonsense, a bit like Afganistan...
 

pomod

New Member
Apr 27, 2004
78
0
0
So I'm curius what, if anything, will happen to the marine who killed the unarmed and wounded Iraqi at that mosque the other day. Even the US brass investigating this incident says it's possibly a war crime. How much time do you think this guy should or will do? Or, will it be considered too "demoralizeing" to the troops for him to be actually tried as war criminal?
Slap on the wrist? dishonourable discharge? what does everyone think?
 

MountainPro

New Member
Aug 11, 2004
3,071
1
38
pomod said:
Slap on the wrist? dishonourable discharge? what does everyone think?
i doubt you'll ever hear about him again...its all bull anyway, there are far more evil atrocities carried out my the US marines that either go unfilmed or are censcored before they are sent to the media.

as for it being a war crime...i thought the war was over.
 

MountainPro

New Member
Aug 11, 2004
3,071
1
38
Ia m thinking of starting a thread called: blah blah blah..and putting a poll there..

option 1: are you Merkin
option 2: are you not Merkin

then all the Merkins can vote one way and the rest of the world votes the other. Thats the way all polls in this forum end up anyway...lets cut out the filler in between...i.e. the topic