Assaulted by a paint ball gun...



SkinnyRob said:
Just in case youre still not convinced though, here is the FAQ from the author of "How bullets fly"

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/faq.htm#Q13


Q: If a bullet is fired vertically from a rifle, what will its terminal velocity be if it strikes the top of someones head on its way back down?

A: This question is hard to answer in general. The best I can give is a "worst-case" estimation.
When a gun is fired vertically, the bullet after some time reaches a summit where the velocity is zero, and then falls back. The bullet will fall back base first which is hard to calculate. I can estimate the velocity if it would fall nose first, that is the normal flying position for which drag is well known - so the real terminal velocity will actually be smaller than the following prediction.

  • For a .22 lr bullet (m=40 grain, v0 = 1150 ft/s)
    the summit will be at 1164 ft, the total flight time 30 seconds and the terminal velocity 270 ft/s
  • For a SS109 military bullet (m= 55 grain, v0=3200 ft/s)
    the summit will be at 2650 ft, the total flight time 44 seconds and the terminal velocity 404 ft/s.
    For this bullet are indications that it will become unstable. This will further reduce summit height and terminal velocity considerably.
Class is concluded for today. Any other questions?

So you admit you were wrong about the terminal speed being 150-200f/s and now you agree with me that terminal speed is reached at about 250 m you should also read this:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec98/913922171.Ph.r.html

and

http://www.villman.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1087

or do your own search using terminal velocity bullet.

You were even wrong about the spin. 36% retained at the top of trajectory.

So if you did have something to do with ballistics you mustn't have been very good at it.

In summary, of all the websites I've checked, only one cast doubt on the ability of a falling bullet to kill. The rest confirmed the possibility,

As for basic physics, I would suggest any limitations I have are more than made up for my ability to apply logic (although I did study Physics at University)

At this stage you are wrong on several counts. Now are you still willing to have a bullet fall on your head at terminal velocity? Something like a .38? Looks like the joke's on you :p
 
mitosis said:
So you admit you were wrong about the terminal speed being 150-200f/s and now you agree with me that terminal speed is reached at about 250 m you should also read this:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec98/913922171.Ph.r.html

and

http://www.villman.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1087

or do your own search using terminal velocity bullet.

You were even wrong about the spin. 36% retained at the top of trajectory.

So if you did have something to do with ballistics you mustn't have been very good at it.

In summary, of all the websites I've checked, only one cast doubt on the ability of a falling bullet to kill. The rest confirmed the possibility,

As for basic physics, I would suggest any limitations I have are more than made up for my ability to apply logic (although I did study Physics at University)

At this stage you are wrong on several counts. Now are you still willing to have a bullet fall on your head at terminal velocity? Something like a .38? Looks like the joke's on you :p
Actually, Im still right. Notice the weight of the bullets. Do you even know what weight a 9mm bullet is? No? 147gr. That 55 gr military load is falling at 404 ft/s, or probably about 125 m/s. Have you ever seen how fast a paintball is moving when it exits the barrel? Its actually about the same.

Youre also wrong about the spin. The spin is based on amount of twist of the firearm, so you cannot state that figure with any amount of certainty. Its just not possible.

Im well aware of the physics involved with this, and I conducted several studies on ballistics in different types of materials while I was in the Marines. You are a civilian, with a web browser and a "think you know it all" attitude.

It is YOU who are wrong on more than one account here. If you actually read any of those websites that "confirm" the ability of a falling bullet to kill, you would also read that the bullet tumbles due to wind resistance and loses its ballistic trajectory. The worse thats going to happen is a little broken skin, hardly skull penetration in order to cause death.

Youre barking up the wrong tree...
 
Rob is 100% right. There are a lot of things you have to think about here. How long it takes to reach terminal velocity is really not one of them because the bullet is going to be high enough to reach it on the way down anyway. I don't care if it is 2 inches above your head before it hits you, terminal velocity has still be reached. So please stop talking about that point.

Also, you HAVE to consider what kind of bullet has been fired. Why? Like Rob said the weight is a factor. Also, wind resistance plays a role as well thus slowing the bullet down a bit. Also, the fact that the bullet will probably end up falling butt end first will add resistance. So size of the bullet matters as well. If you want to get technical the weather plays a role as well. For example if it is raining it will be hitting the rain (and other things) which will also slow it down.

Stop your *****ing though. Here is the bottom line. Will a bullet kill you on the way down? Sure it 100% could. Is it likely to happen? No. Why? It would have to hit you someplace where you were pretty vulnerable to penetration. Take for example your ass, which is where most of the posts in this thread should be put.

Bottom line - Rob is the most right. Everyone else is either wrong or partially right.

Whew

:)
 
SkinnyRob said:
Actually, its only going to take roughly 150 meters for it to reach terminal velocity. I dont know why you want to drop it from 1000. The worst its probably going to do is put a lump on your skin and maybe break it. Its definitely not going to penetrate the bone though.

If you want to go see how wrong you are, go ahead. LOL.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm
Dr Karl's Homework - Bullets Fired Up (26/1/2000)http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html
The Straight Dope: Can a bullet fired into the air kill someone when it comes down?http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tpupdates/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpupdates/archives/2006_01_03.html
NOLA.com: Times-Picayune Updateshttp://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm
Topic of the Month
 
stevebaby said:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm
Dr Karl's Homework - Bullets Fired Up (26/1/2000)http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html
The Straight Dope: Can a bullet fired into the air kill someone when it comes down?http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tpupdates/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpupdates/archives/2006_01_03.html
NOLA.com: Times-Picayune Updateshttp://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm
Topic of the Month
You might actually want to try doing some research, and know what youre talking about before you start randomly posting links. The very first one flys in the face of science. The second one proves my point. The third one further proves my point on ballistic trajectory. Read about where the bullet entered and lodged. It would be pretty hard to do that if it was fired straight up.


But, Im sure you, like mitosis, are another ballistics expert, right?
 
SBSpartan said:
Rob is 100% right. There are a lot of things you have to think about here. How long it takes to reach terminal velocity is really not one of them because the bullet is going to be high enough to reach it on the way down anyway. I don't care if it is 2 inches above your head before it hits you, terminal velocity has still be reached. So please stop talking about that point.

Also, you HAVE to consider what kind of bullet has been fired. Why? Like Rob said the weight is a factor. Also, wind resistance plays a role as well thus slowing the bullet down a bit. Also, the fact that the bullet will probably end up falling butt end first will add resistance. So size of the bullet matters as well. If you want to get technical the weather plays a role as well. For example if it is raining it will be hitting the rain (and other things) which will also slow it down.

Stop your *****ing though. Here is the bottom line. Will a bullet kill you on the way down? Sure it 100% could. Is it likely to happen? No. Why? It would have to hit you someplace where you were pretty vulnerable to penetration. Take for example your ass, which is where most of the posts in this thread should be put.

Bottom line - Rob is the most right. Everyone else is either wrong or partially right.

Whew

:)
Thank you! Im glad SOMEONE actually takes the time to read, and actually think about whats being said before replying.
 
SkinnyRob said:
You might actually want to try doing some research, and know what youre talking about before you start randomly posting links. The very first one flys in the face of science. The second one proves my point. The third one further proves my point on ballistic trajectory. Read about where the bullet entered and lodged. It would be pretty hard to do that if it was fired straight up.


But, Im sure you, like mitosis, are another ballistics expert, right?
I think I'll believe the word of Dr.Kruzelnicki,who is a doctor,physicist and engineer.I believe he knows more about the physics of falling objects than you.
The second link proves you wrong,since you stated that such an injury is unlikely and the article shows that it is.
It is virtually impossible to fire a bullet absolutely vertically.If it were possible,the bullet would fall back into the muzzle of the gun or very close to it.The bullets fired from guns pointed upwards will always travel in a parabolic arc.
Please explain how Dr. Kruzelnicki's explanation "flys in the face of science"?
You can't,can you?
 
stevebaby said:
I think I'll believe the word of Dr.Kruzelnicki,who is a doctor,physicist and engineer.I believe he knows more about the physics of falling objects than you.
The second link proves you wrong,since you stated that such an injury is unlikely and the article shows that it is.
It is virtually impossible to fire a bullet absolutely vertically.If it were possible,the bullet would fall back into the muzzle of the gun or very close to it.The bullets fired from guns pointed upwards will always travel in a parabolic arc.
Please explain how Dr. Kruzelnicki's explanation "flys in the face of science"?
You can't,can you?
For being a "physicist" he utterly and completely ignores the fact that the bullet will likely tumble on its descent, and not fall back to earth in the same manner in which it launched. I dont say that, physics does. The earth isnt a vacuum.

Going from your second link (which proves my point, again)
"
Datum 1. At first I thought being struck by a bullet falling straight down would be no worse than getting hit over the head with a two-by-four--not the average guy's idea of fun, but not fatal either. What goes up must come down, but it needn't do so at the same speed. You run up against what's known as "terminal velocity." A bullet fired straight up will slow down, stop, then fall to earth again, accelerating until it reaches a point where its weight equals the resistance of the air. That's its terminal velocity.

For further insight, we turn to Hatcher's Notebook (1962) by Major General Julian S. Hatcher, a U.S. Army ordnance expert. Hatcher described military tests with, among other things, a .30 caliber bullet weighing .021 pounds. Using a special rig, the testers shot the bullet straight into the air. It came down bottom (not point) first at what was later computed to be about 300 feet per second. "With the [.021 pound] bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds," Hatcher wrote. "Previously, the army had decided that on the average an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound. Thus, service bullets returning from extreme heights cannot be considered lethal by this standard."

If 30 foot pounds doesn't mean much to you, the bullet made a mark about one-sixteenth of an inch deep in a soft pine board. About what you'd get giving it a good whack with a hammer. Note that we're talking about bullets shot straight up here. If the bullet is fired more or less horizontally, it may not lose much speed before returning to earth and could easily kill someone."

You should really stick to things you know about, because you dont know anything about this subject.

And, just for further discussion, dont post links without first reading them, so as to prove your point. It really makes you look bad when they start proving my point.
 
stevebaby said:
I think I'll believe the word of Dr.Kruzelnicki,who is a doctor,physicist and engineer.I believe he knows more about the physics of falling objects than you.
The second link proves you wrong,since you stated that such an injury is unlikely and the article shows that it is.
It is virtually impossible to fire a bullet absolutely vertically.If it were possible,the bullet would fall back into the muzzle of the gun or very close to it.The bullets fired from guns pointed upwards will always travel in a parabolic arc.
Please explain how Dr. Kruzelnicki's explanation "flys in the face of science"?
You can't,can you?
This post is terrible. First of all, believe who you want. But do so with reason and understanding. You just said the link proves him wrong because he stated an injury is unlikely and the article shows that it is. Those are your words and I think you would be well served to know the meaning of the word UNLIKELY. Let me help, it means improbable. Besides, nobody has said you won't get hurt. What has been said is it is UNLIKELY you will die.
As for you "bullet falling in the muzzle" comment. Are you serious? Also, you are trying to make the next arguement with an all inclusive term involved. If bullets fired from a gun pointed upward ALWAYS travel in a parbolic arc what happens if there is a gusting high wind? Oh wait, it might not be a parabola will it?
Besides, regardless of the bullets travels it is still held to the same rules as every other bullet so who cares if it is parabola. The bullet will still eventually loose the energy that pushed it out of the gun in the first place.

Besides that both articles prove his point.

:D
 
SBSpartan said:
This post is terrible. First of all, believe who you want. But do so with reason and understanding. You just said the link proves him wrong because he stated an injury is unlikely and the article shows that it is. Those are your words and I think you would be well served to know the meaning of the word UNLIKELY. Let me help, it means improbable. Besides, nobody has said you won't get hurt. What has been said is it is UNLIKELY you will die.
As for you "bullet falling in the muzzle" comment. Are you serious? Also, you are trying to make the next arguement with an all inclusive term involved. If bullets fired from a gun pointed upward ALWAYS travel in a parbolic arc what happens if there is a gusting high wind? Oh wait, it might not be a parabola will it?
Besides, regardless of the bullets travels it is still held to the same rules as every other bullet so who cares if it is parabola. The bullet will still eventually loose the energy that pushed it out of the gun in the first place.

Besides that both articles prove his point.

:D

Besides that, I dont know anyone who has an 11,000 ft vacuum tube laying around. A bullet simply CAN NOT and WILL NOT return to Earth in the manner in which it was fired.

And one more thing, the author of the article I quoted before makes reference to the LA Times. If you had actually done the research, you would know that the person or persons who fired those shots were 1.5 miles away from the victim. A bullet that travels in that kind of arc maintains its balllistic trajectory. Once again, just for those of you who still dont get it, a bullet fired straight up will not.

Nice to see someone else can think and read here.:)
 
I agree with both of you actually. But it will hurt a lot! Ever tried freezing some paintballs and shotting them at max speed out of a paint ball gun? It will be around the same 400fps, but the energy won't desperse like a normal paintball does. Same thing with the bullet.

But killing someone.........unlikely if it was shot straight up. Still there is that freak chance though.
 
SkinnyRob said:
Besides that, I dont know anyone who has an 11,000 ft vacuum tube laying around. A bullet simply CAN NOT and WILL NOT return to Earth in the manner in which it was fired.

And one more thing, the author of the article I quoted before makes reference to the LA Times. If you had actually done the research, you would know that the person or persons who fired those shots were 1.5 miles away from the victim. A bullet that travels in that kind of arc maintains its balllistic trajectory. Once again, just for those of you who still dont get it, a bullet fired straight up will not.

Nice to see someone else can think and read here.:)

Check out Mythbusters on April 23rd at 1:00 pm on The Discovery Channel. It is a repeat of the episode that aired April 19th. They were testing this very issue (bullets fired up).
 
jw-rider said:
Check out Mythbusters on April 23rd at 1:00 pm on The Discovery Channel. It is a repeat of the episode that aired April 19th. They were testing this very issue (bullets fired up).
TIVO'ed. I dont know how I ever lived without TIVO. Thanks!
 
SkinnyRob said:
Besides that, I dont know anyone who has an 11,000 ft vacuum tube laying around. A bullet simply CAN NOT and WILL NOT return to Earth in the manner in which it was fired.

And one more thing, the author of the article I quoted before makes reference to the LA Times. If you had actually done the research, you would know that the person or persons who fired those shots were 1.5 miles away from the victim. A bullet that travels in that kind of arc maintains its balllistic trajectory. Once again, just for those of you who still dont get it, a bullet fired straight up will not.

Nice to see someone else can think and read here.:)
The LA Times article refers to 118 injuries and 38 deaths.You have no way of knowing what distance all those bullets were fired from.
It is impossible to fire a bullet straight up without fixing the gun in place and precisely levelling it.It is quite unlikely that some drunk on New Years Eve is going to do this before negligently discharging the weapon.
:D
 
SkinnyRob said:
Wrong. A bullet is only going to fall between 150-200fps, or roughly the speed of the paintball gun.

A bullet shot at an angle where it maintains is ballistic trajectory will continue to spin, and still is viable. A bullet fired straight up, however, will tumble during its descent.
The attached link to the Baylor College of Medicine shows the velocity necessary to penetrate skin and fracture bone...precisely within the limits you mention.http://www.bcm.edu/oto/grand/02_12_04.htm
Gunshot Wound Ballistics
:D :D :D
 

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