At 85% HR what would be optimum daily duration?

[dot]

suddenly, upping your volume (e.g. 21hr/wk) will virtually always result in having a lower HR. It doesn't mean that you are fitter. In general (for people that race) being fitter means producing more power over the duration(s) you're interested in -- this doesn't always tie in with a lower HR.

Ric

I dare to suggest that lower HRs provide more space for power to grow, don't they?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I dare to suggest that lower HRs provide more space for power to grow, don't they?

i'm not sure i fully understand what you're saying (i believe that English isn't your first language?)

however, as an example, i can ride a 40-km TT on a saturday. I record average power and HR. On sunday i can repeat the TT recording the same time and power. However, my HR will be about 10 b/min lower. I can ride at a higher power output. Similarly, if i suddenly up my volume over a period of (e.g.) a week, a similar phenomenon occurs -- my HR becomes depressed at a given power output. I have, however, *not* become any fitter (i.e., able to produce more power). This not only occurs with 'average' racers like myself but with elite sportspeople as well. In the work i did with some of the TdF riders during last years TdF you can see that at given efforts HR can become markedly depressed over a 3 week period. Both submaximal and maximal HR is decreased, and there's an increase in plasma volume. after a week or two's rest the opposite occurs and a higher submax and max HR can be achieved

none of this is necessarily that obvious unless you have power meter data.

ric

 

[dot]

i'm not sure i fully understand what you're saying (i believe that English isn't your first language?)

But you seemed to understand me

In the work i did with some of the TdF riders during last years TdF you can see that at given efforts HR can become markedly depressed over a 3 week period. Both submaximal and maximal HR is decreased, and there's an increase in plasma volume. after a week or two's rest the opposite occurs and a higher submax and max HR can be achieved

none of this is necessarily that obvious unless you have power meter data.

ric

That's the best answer I've ever got on this topic!

 

[ric_stern/RST]

But you seemed to understand me

well i wasn't 100% certain, and wanted to preface my response with a "get out clause"!!

That's the best answer I've ever got on this topic!

thanks!
ric

 

[wiredued]

I have a quote from Jack Lalanne that I found interesting this is a guy with a history of endurance exibitions although not in cycling but a comment worth considering.

Jack LaLanne: Do you work with the weights?

Share Guide: Sometimes. I start with 30 minutes on the treadmill or stairmaster.
Jack LaLanne: Twelve to seventeen minutes is plenty on the treadmill--if it's done fast. That's all you need for cardiovascular benefit. You don't need to spend that extra time unless you are over weight and you need to burn off extra calories.

Share Guide: How fast do I need to go on the treadmill?
Jack LaLanne: Do it vigorously, like somebody is chasing you. You've got to do it hard. Otherwise, if you just take it easy and do it longer, you are spending all that time when you don't need it. Use that extra time with your weights instead. Focus on your problem zones, your strength, your energy, your flexibility and all the rest. Maybe your chest is flabby or your hips or waist need toning. Also, you should change your program every thirty days. That's the key.

I wish this would work, but if 12 to 17 minutes a day, at a hard "race" effort was all it took, we'd all be great riders. Unless you're training for only very short track sprint races, having a high power output for 15 minutes isn't going to be enough. For road events, you need real aerobic efficiency....the ability to cruise at a good speed for hours at a low HR, while still having enough energy reserves for a sprint finish.

Your short routine might raise your VO2 max, but don't believe it's going to do much for building your aerobic energy systems. Try it for a month straight, then go out for a 30 mile group road ride and see what happens.

The rule of "specificity" says that for your body to adapt to long road events and races, long distance training is going to be required. There is a reason Lance and the pro's do endurance rides of 4-6 hrs at 65% max HR or less, racking up 15-20,000 miles a year or more. Our top local club riders and racers are doing 8K miles year or more....about 30 miles/day average, 5-6 days a week.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I have a quote from Jack Lalanne that I found interesting this is a guy with a history of endurance exibitions although not in cycling but a comment worth considering.

Jack LaLanne: Do you work with the weights?

Share Guide: Sometimes. I start with 30 minutes on the treadmill or stairmaster.
Jack LaLanne: Twelve to seventeen minutes is plenty on the treadmill--if it's done fast. That's all you need for cardiovascular benefit. You don't need to spend that extra time unless you are over weight and you need to burn off extra calories.

is this just me or does none of that make the slightest bit of sense?
do you work with weights? sometimes. i start with the stairmaster or treadmill?

What!?





Share Guide: How fast do I need to go on the treadmill?
Jack LaLanne: Do it vigorously, like somebody is chasing you. You've got to do it hard. Otherwise, if you just take it easy and do it longer, you are spending all that time when you don't need it. Use that extra time with your weights instead. Focus on your problem zones, your strength, your energy, your flexibility and all the rest. Maybe your chest is flabby or your hips or waist need toning. Also, you should change your program every thirty days. That's the key.[/QUOTE]

what has this got to do with cycle training?

what happens if the person chasing you is someone of the gender that you find appealing. why would you run vigorously?!

Why would you want to use weights for cycling, unless you are a track sprinter?

Why do you have to change your programme every 30 days? some adaptations that occur with training happen on a much shorter time scale, others on a much longer time scale.

ric

 

[Randybaker99]

I would venture that Jack LaLanne's theories are probably more directed at sedentary folks who are trying to start an exercise regimen, before they die of a heart attack (which I am all for!). But it doesn't seem to apply in any useful way to a fit person who is training to improve cycling performance.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[dhk]

Ric, have you heard of Jack Lalanne? He's a fit 80 yr old guy that got some fame as a bodybuilder and gym trainer in southern CA after WW II. In the 50's or 60's, he briefly had an exercise show on TV here in the US pushing the value of exercise to sedentary people, where he did some jumping jacks and dumbell lifting while dressed in a stretch jumpsuit. He's not anyone I'd look to for training advice....not in this century.

 

[dhk]

I would venture that Jack LaLanne's theories are probably more directed at sedentary folks who are trying to start an exercise regimen, before they die of a heart attack (which I am all for!). But it doesn't seem to apply in any useful way to a fit person who is training to improve cycling performance.

Just my 2 cents...

Our posts crossed, but we're on the same wavelength here.

 

[wiredued]

OK maybe I'll gradually work back up to 20 to 30 minutes but 12 to 17 gave me alot of unspent energy during the day to use in other activities it helps when remodeling your house.

I wish this would work, but if 12 to 17 minutes a day, at a hard "race" effort was all it took, we'd all be great riders. Unless you're training for only very short track sprint races, having a high power output for 15 minutes isn't going to be enough. For road events, you need real aerobic efficiency....the ability to cruise at a good speed for hours at a low HR, while still having enough energy reserves for a sprint finish.

Your short routine might raise your VO2 max, but don't believe it's going to do much for building your aerobic energy systems. Try it for a month straight, then go out for a 30 mile group road ride and see what happens.

The rule of "specificity" says that for your body to adapt to long road events and races, long distance training is going to be required. There is a reason Lance and the pro's do endurance rides of 4-6 hrs at 65% max HR or less, racking up 15-20,000 miles a year or more. Our top local club riders and racers are doing 8K miles year or more....about 30 miles/day average, 5-6 days a week.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Ric, have you heard of Jack Lalanne? He's a fit 80 yr old guy that got some fame as a bodybuilder and gym trainer in southern CA after WW II. In the 50's or 60's, he briefly had an exercise show on TV here in the US pushing the value of exercise to sedentary people, where he did some jumping jacks and dumbell lifting while dressed in a stretch jumpsuit. He's not anyone I'd look to for training advice....not in this century.

Never heard of him, and due to his location and lack of 'credentials' it's not surprising i've never heard of him!

of course, i agree with the message as you explpain: if he (or anyone) get couch potatoes moving then full credit to him (and anyone else). The lack of exercise with the general population in many western countries is dire.

ric

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Jack Lalanne. Now there's a name I've not heard in a while. He came from the old physical culture days that pre-dated bodybuilding. I remember his old back and white fitness show on TV when I was a kid. I seem to remember he swam the English channel at 80 years of age. He may have even been pulling a small fishing boat or something. I think he pulled a box car several yards with his teeth too or some such nonsense. Wish I could be as fit as him when I'm up in the geezer realm.

Definitely would not take any cycling advice from him though.

http://www.jacklalanne.com/

 

[Randybaker99]

OK maybe I'll gradually work back up to 20 to 30 minutes but 12 to 17 gave me alot of unspent energy during the day to use in other activities it helps when remodeling your house.

If you are serious about improving your performance, consider trying intervals, eg. 2 minutes of maximum effort followed by 4 minutes of recovery effort, then repeat this "set" several times.

Be warned, this is intense, it won't leave much energy left over for remodeling!

 

[ric_stern/RST]

If you are serious about improving your performance, consider trying intervals, eg. 2 minutes of maximum effort followed by 4 minutes of recovery effort, then repeat this "set" several times.

Be warned, this is intense, it won't leave much energy left over for remodeling!

if you are serious about improving performance you would leave this till fairly late in your training and depending on the type of racing you did, may not need to do such training

ric

 

[andrello]

Never heard of him, and due to his location and lack of 'credentials' it's not surprising i've never heard of him!

Are you kidding? Jack La Lanne is the orginal personal trainer. And his credentials are very far from lacking. He opened the very first gym in the US. One could argue that his historical efforts are probably the reason you have a job today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_La_Lanne

 

[dhk]

Are you kidding? Jack La Lanne is the orginal personal trainer. And his credentials are very far from lacking. He opened the very first gym in the US. One could argue that his historical efforts are probably the reason you have a job today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_La_Lanne

Well, I have nothing against the guy, but he wasn't even prominent in bodybuilding or weighlifting by the time Arnold came over to train in the 70's. He was a big hit in the 50's when the value of exercise for the adult population was still in question. Never have heard of him training any serious bodybuilders or weighlifters....and certainly never cyclists or runners.

There are plenty of sound cycling training books out there to read. Armstrong, Carmichael, Burke, Pavelka, Matheny, Friel, etc all have training books out with the basics...and they all seem to agree pretty well on them. There's no need to rely on a 90 year old bodybuilder for your cycle training advise.

 

[phillipm]

if you are serious about improving performance you would leave this till fairly late in your training and depending on the type of racing you did, may not need to do such training

ric

Can you elaborate on this? I know this is moving away from the topic at hand, but I've read a few reports on the benefits of interval training providing a real performance kick on a variety of levels, e.g. boosting VO2max, lactate capacity, aerobic capacity, and overall performance.

You probably don't remember my post in early December relating to serious breathing troubles during early intense periods of race conditions. Since then I've introduced 2 sessions of intervals per week and not only drastically reduced (resolved) my breathing issues but I've gone from below average C grade (cat 3??) crit racer to a fairly average B grade (cat 2??) in that period. I'm able to ride faster for longer and can feel increased power.

With the performance benefits I've experienced, I'm wondering what kind of racing would not need interval training?

 

[Orange Fish]

is this just me or does none of that make the slightest bit of sense?
do you work with weights? sometimes. i start with the stairmaster or treadmill?

What!?

I think Jack is just out-dated in his training theories. While he is in pretty darn good shape for an 80 year old guy, his recommendations are slightly off now, especially for our obese/overweight population in the States. But he means well.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I think Jack is just out-dated in his training theories. While he is in pretty darn good shape for an 80 year old guy, his recommendations are slightly off now, especially for our obese/overweight population in the States. But he means well.

i wasn't so much talking about training theories but the content of the sentence. the interviewer asked about weights and the responder replied about stairmaster or treadmill. neither of which are weights

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Can you elaborate on this? I know this is moving away from the topic at hand, but I've read a few reports on the benefits of interval training providing a real performance kick on a variety of levels, e.g. boosting VO2max, lactate capacity, aerobic capacity, and overall performance.

You probably don't remember my post in early December relating to serious breathing troubles during early intense periods of race conditions. Since then I've introduced 2 sessions of intervals per week and not only drastically reduced (resolved) my breathing issues but I've gone from below average C grade (cat 3??) crit racer to a fairly average B grade (cat 2??) in that period. I'm able to ride faster for longer and can feel increased power.

With the performance benefits I've experienced, I'm wondering what kind of racing would not need interval training?

intervals of 2-mins all-out would work anaerobic capacity to a fair degree. To work on increasing VO2max you need intervals of at least 3-mins and/or much shorter recovery periods. Working on anaerobic capacity can be done quite quickly. Seriously working on VO2max should be left until fairly late (e.g. 6 - 8 prior to main peak) or very early (If using reverse periodisation).

ric