ATL load question

[peterwright]

Hi all

I have an athlete I coach who races at a competitive level (Cat 2) and has now been back training for 7 weeks after a 5-6 week layoff. He is in the race season now and I have had him doing 3 sessions of around 80-100 TSS per week L6/L5/L4 with a race at the weekend (~250TSS) so around 450-500TSS per week.

His race performance has been reasonable considering his reduced level of overall fitness.

He has however reported a feeling of deep fatigue last week and was unable to complete all workouts after the L6 on Tues - it is now a week later and he still reports legs feeling sore / fatigued and has not resumed training. He has tried a few sessions and aborted all of them.

My initial reaction is that his fatigue at this level is unlikely to be attributable to the training load and that he should look elsewhere such as diet / stress or sickness approaching etc.

My concern however is that;

1. Given his start from a low CTL - was the introduction of 3 weekly sessions of ~80-100TSS too much in terms of ATL-CTL ? The rest days have certainly kept his TSB looking fine after the first few weeks of high negative numbers m(-40 to -50 but based off a CTL of 30 at the re-start of training)
My logic is that an athlete of his background and fitness would cope with this sort of load with no problem at all.

2. Was the make up of the sessions too physiologically demanding in terms of L6/5/4 and would I have had a potentially different response from him with a few weeks of SST (in terms of fatigue) - given it is race season I wanted to give him the higher intensity sessions.

Any thoughts really appreciated.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Hi all

I have an athlete I coach who races at a competitive level (Cat 2) and has now been back training for 7 weeks after a 5-6 week layoff. He is in the race season now and I have had him doing 3 sessions of around 80-100 TSS per week L6/L5/L4 with a race at the weekend (~250TSS) so around 450-500TSS per week.

His race performance has been reasonable considering his reduced level of overall fitness.

He has however reported a feeling of deep fatigue last week and was unable to complete all workouts after the L6 on Tues - it is now a week later and he still reports legs feeling sore / fatigued and has not resumed training. He has tried a few sessions and aborted all of them.

My initial reaction is that his fatigue at this level is unlikely to be attributable to the training load and that he should look elsewhere such as diet / stress or sickness approaching etc.

My concern however is that;

1. Given his start from a low CTL - was the introduction of 3 weekly sessions of ~80-100TSS too much in terms of ATL-CTL ? The rest days have certainly kept his TSB looking fine after the first few weeks of high negative numbers m(-40 to -50 but based off a CTL of 30 at the re-start of training)
My logic is that an athlete of his background and fitness would cope with this sort of load with no problem at all.

2. Was the make up of the sessions too physiologically demanding in terms of L6/5/4 and would I have had a potentially different response from him with a few weeks of SST (in terms of fatigue) - given it is race season I wanted to give him the higher intensity sessions.

Any thoughts really appreciated.

What is the CTL ramp rate through this period (I could prob back work it out but you'll know answer I'd imagine)?

Do you have historical data to compare previous season builds to see if pattern was replicated?

There has been an observation made that CTL ramp rates greater than 8 points / week may not be sustainable or can lead to increased susceptibility to illness (but it is generally easier to ramp CTL from a low base, so you might find the ramp rate OK in early stages).

Also, in my own (limited and not Cat 2+) experience, I did not cope even with only a couple of weeks with a high CTL ramp rate, let alone a block of training.

I have also made the mistake of not setting FTP correctly (or getting it close enough), hence getting false TSS scores and not spotting trends like a sharp ramp rate.

 

[peterwright]

What is the CTL ramp rate through this period (I could prob back work it out but you'll know answer I'd imagine)?

Do you have historical data to compare previous season builds to see if pattern was replicated?

There has been an observation made that CTL ramp rates greater than 8 points / week may not be sustainable or can lead to increased susceptibility to illness (but it is generally easier to ramp CTL from a low base, so you might find the ramp rate OK in early stages).

Also, in my own (limited and not Cat 2+) experience, I did not cope even with only a couple of weeks with a high CTL ramp rate, let alone a block of training.

I have also made the mistake of not setting FTP correctly (or getting it close enough), hence getting false TSS scores and not spotting trends like a sharp ramp rate.

Hi Alex

I checked that - his CTL ramp has been between 10 and 4 (10 being the second week in) so I do not think that should have this effect.

He has had a fairly similar problem in Feb this year when he decided he was not eating enough so that may be an issue.

Thanks

Peter

 

[otb4evr]

Hi all

2. Was the make up of the sessions too physiologically demanding in terms of L6/5/4 and would I have had a potentially different response from him with a few weeks of SST (in terms of fatigue) - given it is race season I wanted to give him the higher intensity sessions.

Any thoughts really appreciated.

Peter,

I would think that he is getting his fill of the high-end stuff during the racing and you need to have one day of the week, *maybe* two, SST and the others rest/recovery...

Alex did have an interesting comment about FTP, though. With 5 - 6 weeks off, how much did his FTP change?

Jim

 

[peterwright]

Peter,

I would think that he is getting his fill of the high-end stuff during the racing and you need to have one day of the week, *maybe* two, SST and the others rest/recovery...

Alex did have an interesting comment about FTP, though. With 5 - 6 weeks off, how much did his FTP change?

Jim

Not sure I agree with the racing providing the training.. he is preparing to race by training his weak areas (L5/L6) and I also feel that he should be racking up 600-650 TSS / week.

As an update - he informs me that he is now able to get power to the correct level and managed 2x20 @ 100FTP this morning. He is complaining of sore legs still but is motivated and sleeping well / enjoying training.

FTP changed by around 25w

 

[otb4evr]

Not sure I agree with the racing providing the training.. he is preparing to race by training his weak areas (L5/L6) and I also feel that he should be racking up 600-650 TSS / week.

As an update - he informs me that he is now able to get power to the correct level and managed 2x20 @ 100FTP this morning. He is complaining of sore legs still but is motivated and sleeping well / enjoying training.

FTP changed by around 25w

Peter,

I didn't say that he was getting the proper training by racing...

You, as the coach, have to step back and consider what is important. You are supposed to be the unemotional, impartial viewer at their workouts/form/racing etc.

During racing season, is it more important to keep working on his perceived weaknesses or is it more important to make sure he is physically and mentally ready to race?

Having sore legs day after day leads to a draining of mental energy. One never feels they are getting better. Pre-season, this is acceptable, because they understand they are working toward something bigger.

As an aside, I had this issue with an athlete last year. When we switched him away from the focused L5/L6 work and went toward more Tempo, he was more rested and actually did much better racing, as he was more motivated to compete with fresh legs.

Jim

 

[SolarEnergy]

Peter.

Of course I don't have all the details, but I don't think that his training/racing regiment is the problem here.

It could be many things as you might imagine. It might as well be a little flu that he'd been fighting (without actually developing the full range of symptoms).

I wouldn't worry too much with this situation.

 

[peterwright]

Peter,

I didn't say that he was getting the proper training by racing...

You, as the coach, have to step back and consider what is important. You are supposed to be the unemotional, impartial viewer at their workouts/form/racing etc.

During racing season, is it more important to keep working on his perceived weaknesses or is it more important to make sure he is physically and mentally ready to race?

Having sore legs day after day leads to a draining of mental energy. One never feels they are getting better. Pre-season, this is acceptable, because they understand they are working toward something bigger.

As an aside, I had this issue with an athlete last year. When we switched him away from the focused L5/L6 work and went toward more Tempo, he was more rested and actually did much better racing, as he was more motivated to compete with fresh legs.

Jim

All fair points -

I am unsure about reducing his training to a lower level of intensity simply to make him feel better mentally (because his legs are not sore) His mental state will be adversely affected if he races poorly because he has lacked any high intensity training. I was also very careful with his TSB to ensure that he was recovered and able to race well and hence see some good performances (which he did) and feel good mentally.

It is an awkward situation because as a coach I am caught between giving him a steady build of SST to ease his CTL up but have him potentially struggle at the races or take a slightly more high intensity approach but have him feel it a little more in his legs.

As he is a very race focused athlete and competes at a high level , I chose the latter.

I am not saying it was correct - I may look at a mix of L3/4 & 5 for a few weeks.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[peterwright]

Peter.

Of course I don't have all the details, but I don't think that his training/racing regiment is the problem here.

It could be many things as you might imagine. It might as well be a little flu that he'd been fighting (without actually developing the full range of symptoms).

I wouldn't worry too much with this situation.

I tend to agree - thanks.

 

[Spunout]

Not sure I agree with the racing providing the training.. he is preparing to race by training his weak areas (L5/L6) and I also feel that he should be racking up 600-650 TSS / week.

As an update - he informs me that he is now able to get power to the correct level and managed 2x20 @ 100FTP this morning. He is complaining of sore legs still but is motivated and sleeping well / enjoying training.

FTP changed by around 25w

7 Weeks of competition preparation after 6 weeks layoff: Do you feel he has the base to handle the L5/6 work?

Agree that the CTL ramp up has to be slow and steady especially without a base phase.

 

[otb4evr]

All fair points -

I am unsure about reducing his training to a lower level of intensity simply to make him feel better mentally (because his legs are not sore) His mental state will be adversely affected if he races poorly because he has lacked any high intensity training. I was also very careful with his TSB to ensure that he was recovered and able to race well and hence see some good performances (which he did) and feel good mentally.

It is an awkward situation because as a coach I am caught between giving him a steady build of SST to ease his CTL up but have him potentially struggle at the races or take a slightly more high intensity approach but have him feel it a little more in his legs.

As he is a very race focused athlete and competes at a high level , I chose the latter.

I am not saying it was correct - I may look at a mix of L3/4 & 5 for a few weeks.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Peter,

I am not trying to be argumentative...

Please help me understand:

1. you originally stated:

He has however reported a feeling of deep fatigue last week and was unable to complete all workouts after the L6 on Tues - it is now a week later and he still reports legs feeling sore / fatigued and has not resumed training. He has tried a few sessions and aborted all of them.

Now you say:

I am unsure about reducing his training to a lower level of intensity simply to make him feel better mentally (because his legs are not sore)...

2. My responses centered around your second point, which was:

Was the make up of the sessions too physiologically demanding in terms of L6/5/4 and would I have had a potentially different response from him with a few weeks of SST (in terms of fatigue) - given it is race season I wanted to give him the higher intensity sessions.

When I agreed with you about the makeup of ATL being too physiologically demanding, I think you were thinking that I meant to back off the volume. Hence, your comment:

...as a coach I am caught between giving him a steady build of SST to ease his CTL up...

Understand, I am not suggesting lowering his ATL, and by result not raising his CTL/fitness, by doing SST. I am suggesting keeping the same amount of TSS, but substituting the high-end work with SST.

I am wondering if you need to change the ATL time constant, seeing as how this athlete has a CTL of 30...?

One more thing, if you don't mind.

You stated:

I was also very careful with his TSB to ensure that he was recovered and able to race well and hence see some good performances (which he did) and feel good mentally.

My thought is that these (very valuable) tools just help us see inside the "science" of how an athlete responds. This does not relieve us of the burden of using our abilities to "see inside" the athlete's head and find out what the problem is, nor does it stop us from changing the original plan if something is not working.

Being able to work with WKO+ is not why we get paid...

Jim

 

[acoggan]

7 Weeks of competition preparation after 6 weeks layoff: Do you feel he has the base to handle the L5/6 work?

That's what caught my eye as well. Personally, I like to do at least 12 wk of "sweet spot training" with only limited level 5/6 efforts for maintenance purposes before dialing up the intensity. I'd allow even more time if I let my fitness slip in the off-season as much as many do, and/or if I had the potential for greater/continued improvement.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Hi all

I have an athlete I coach who races at a competitive level (Cat 2) and has now been back training for 7 weeks after a 5-6 week layoff. He is in the race season now and I have had him doing 3 sessions of around 80-100 TSS per week L6/L5/L4 with a race at the weekend (~250TSS) so around 450-500TSS per week.

His race performance has been reasonable considering his reduced level of overall fitness.

He has however reported a feeling of deep fatigue last week and was unable to complete all workouts after the L6 on Tues - it is now a week later and he still reports legs feeling sore / fatigued and has not resumed training. He has tried a few sessions and aborted all of them.

My initial reaction is that his fatigue at this level is unlikely to be attributable to the training load and that he should look elsewhere such as diet / stress or sickness approaching etc.

My concern however is that;

1. Given his start from a low CTL - was the introduction of 3 weekly sessions of ~80-100TSS too much in terms of ATL-CTL ? The rest days have certainly kept his TSB looking fine after the first few weeks of high negative numbers m(-40 to -50 but based off a CTL of 30 at the re-start of training)
My logic is that an athlete of his background and fitness would cope with this sort of load with no problem at all.

2. Was the make up of the sessions too physiologically demanding in terms of L6/5/4 and would I have had a potentially different response from him with a few weeks of SST (in terms of fatigue) - given it is race season I wanted to give him the higher intensity sessions.

Any thoughts really appreciated.

I would say L2/3 (+maybe 4) should form the backbone coming back from a break. Get CTL up with SST to raise LT and avoid burnout later. Given that LT /TT power is key in road racing, I think this is the best approach. Maybe he/she will have to pick some later season goals if he/she really needs the intensity to fire? I am assuming the break was unplanned?

 

[peterwright]

Peter,

I am not trying to be argumentative...

Please help me understand:

1. you originally stated: Now you say:

2. My responses centered around your second point, which was: When I agreed with you about the makeup of ATL being too physiologically demanding, I think you were thinking that I meant to back off the volume. Hence, your comment: Understand, I am not suggesting lowering his ATL, and by result not raising his CTL/fitness, by doing SST. I am suggesting keeping the same amount of TSS, but substituting the high-end work with SST.

I am wondering if you need to change the ATL time constant, seeing as how this athlete has a CTL of 30...?

One more thing, if you don't mind.

You stated: My thought is that these (very valuable) tools just help us see inside the "science" of how an athlete responds. This does not relieve us of the burden of using our abilities to "see inside" the athlete's head and find out what the problem is, nor does it stop us from changing the original plan if something is not working.

Being able to work with WKO+ is not why we get paid...

Jim

Jim

The reason I said that I did not think it appropriate to reduce his intensity (nor did I see the need to) was because I do not attribute his failure to complete the workouts to his fatigue as a result of the training - as I pointed out, I think it is due to something else. My bracketed comment "becasue his legs are not sore" in your second quote was referring to him feeling better mentally if his legs were not sore..hope that makes sense

I am open to the fact that the sessions MAY be too demanding (L4-L6) but I suppose I was headed in the direction that they should not be for an athlete of this calibre and that they should not have led to this sort of symptom. Given that his race performances have been good, he has showed all the signs of being fully recovered each week from the load and has been able to complete all sessions up until now without undue fatigue - I would suggest that he is unlikely to simply fall over this dramatically without warning ?

In cases like this I have seen in the past there are normally plenty of signs that the athlete is not coping with the intensity of the sessions and as such a lower intensity programme (at the same ATL) may be appropriate.

Anyway - I believe that he has had a temporary blip that may be attributable to some other factor combined with the high intensity work.

Cheers

Peter

 

[otb4evr]

Jim

The reason I said that I did not think it appropriate to reduce his intensity (nor did I see the need to) was because I do not attribute his failure to complete the workouts to his fatigue as a result of the training - as I pointed out, I think it is due to something else. My bracketed comment "becasue his legs are not sore" in your second quote was referring to him feeling better mentally if his legs were not sore..hope that makes sense

I am open to the fact that the sessions MAY be too demanding (L4-L6) but I suppose I was headed in the direction that they should not be for an athlete of this calibre and that they should not have led to this sort of symptom. Given that his race performances have been good, he has showed all the signs of being fully recovered each week from the load and has been able to complete all sessions up until now without undue fatigue - I would suggest that he is unlikely to simply fall over this dramatically without warning ?

In cases like this I have seen in the past there are normally plenty of signs that the athlete is not coping with the intensity of the sessions and as such a lower intensity programme (at the same ATL) may be appropriate.

Anyway - I believe that he has had a temporary blip that may be attributable to some other factor combined with the high intensity work.

Cheers

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to fill in the gaps...

Take care,

Jim

 

[SolarEnergy]

That's what caught my eye as well. Personally, I like to do at least 12 wk of "sweet spot training" with only limited level 5/6 efforts for maintenance purposes before dialing up the intensity. I'd allow even more time if I let my fitness slip in the off-season as much as many do, and/or if I had the potential for greater/continued improvement.

And that certainly makes sense too.

----------------------

You know Peter, no matter what the reason is (you'll probably find out soon), we don't like to be training at L5 when the work capacity isn't there. You know how frustating it is when you suffer at a power level that's usually not a problem.

And if in fact it is indeed a latent flu, training too intense may have a bad impact on rider's imune system, thus extending the non productive time.

It's funny because I've been having some weird thoughts lately about a HR based ATL curve that I may like to see as a separate color on a PMC. How weird

 

[whoawhoa]

To go further w/ the sst. vs. l5/6 arguemnt: Peter, what type of races is your athlete doing? I find it hard to believe those areas are his limiter, given that I believe you said his FT is 25 watts down. Even if those areas are his weak areas, they may not be what's holding him back if he's mostly doing road races.

Of course, I also agree that it's easier to do l6 and especially l5 when FT has been raised.

 

[peterwright]

To go further w/ the sst. vs. l5/6 arguemnt: Peter, what type of races is your athlete doing? I find it hard to believe those areas are his limiter, given that I believe you said his FT is 25 watts down. Even if those areas are his weak areas, they may not be what's holding him back if he's mostly doing road races.

Of course, I also agree that it's easier to do l6 and especially l5 when FT has been raised.

80-110km road races for a vets team. In many cases he is struggling after having to close down moves for his team, and as his FTP was above average for his peer group before, it is still comparable now and so he can hold on ok but is struggling with the higher intensity surges and attacks.