warrwych wrote:
> Bleve Wrote:
> > warrwych wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, my response was meant to be read as a whole and
> > > dissection (decontextualising it) distorts it and changes meaning.
> > Well
> > > done.
> >
> > The *only* issue I have with D-P is probably nothing to do with them,
> > it's more the unfortunate emphasis put on it as an "all Australian"
> > squad, which is probably an emphasis being made by reporting on it,
> > moreso than the team's philosophy (about which we can only guess). It
> > saddens me to read posts here and elsewhere decrying the lack of an
> > Australian team in the pro tour. I think the lack of nationality
> > based
> > teams is a great strength of professional cycling as a sport and
> > entertainment.
> >
> > That's why I'm pulling your posts to bits, because 95% of it I agree
> > with (as you know ....) but there's one thing I think is regrettable.
> >
> > > Frankly I couldn't care less if a team was made up of Catholics,
> > > Sunnis, Bhuddists, women, car drivers, individuals who live in Cape
> > > York, or who are over 40. If it provides opportunities that are
> > > otherwise not readily available then I see that as positive. If
> > teams
> > > create division which is supported by aggression and repression then
> > I
> > > do not support that (yes, the cricket crowd you mention - havent
> > seen
> > > that in cycling yet).
> > >
> > > I am not missing any points Bleve, you are being dogmatic and
> > narrowly
> > > focussed in your vision of the issue.
> >
> > I am focussing on it, yes, for the reasons outlined above. I think
> > teams based on nationality are regrettable artifacts of history, and
> > I
> > admire professional cycling for on the whole, having moved past them.
> >
> > You may notice I'm not calling anyone any names, but am debating an
> > issue that I think is worth debating.
> >
> > > D-P is NOT a national team, but
> > > a team made up of Australian nationals, financed by local
> > businesses,
> > > designed to provide experience and exposure (and career pathways)
> > for
> > > Australian cyclists who may not otherwise have the opportunity. It
> > is
> > > also providing a model of athlete development that is unfortunately
> > > uncommon and ignored. You and I both know that talented young
> > athletes
> > > may not always follow through, so the Rabobank & FDJ models of
> > > selecting the best may not always work, for a variety of reasons,
> > the
> > > least of which is burn out.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > Considering what D-P is trying to achieve, and where it comes from
> > (ie
> > > local business) I cannot see why they would want to include non-
> > > Australians (crude way of putting it, sorry) at this stage of their
> > > game plan. And let's not forget, there is more to Australia than
> > white
> > > anglo-saxon males.
> > >
> > > I know I won't "convert" you and I am not trying to. But
> > > acknowledgement and recognition of other points of view, rather than
> > > blanket dismissal would be less divisive.
> >
> > We're having a healthy discussion about something that we feel
> > strongly
> > about and have different perspectives and points of view about, is
> > that
> > so terrible?
>
> healthy discussions usually don't include responses such as "old news"
> (dimissive) and "who cares" (ditto).
It was old news! And if you're going to get upset about my breaking up
your posts to target a point, it's perhaps not such a good thing to
then do the same thing
> Also, I didn't think dogmatic was a name - I thought it was an
> adjective
>
> Despite the excellent inroads Australian individuals have made into the
> Euro cycling scene, it is still difficult for Australian cyclists to
> break into the European circuit and be picked up by trade teams (cost
> is a major factor).
That's an interesting point. I wonder if it really is that difficult.
If you look at the national makeup of riders, at, say, the '05 TdF,
where there was I think 10 Australian riders from a field of around 200
in total, that's about 5% of the field. Quite a lot, I think.
Australian riders have won the green jersey, finished in the top 10 a
few times, held the yellow quite a lot, won stages. There was how many
English riders? And they're closer, it's cheaper for them, they have a
significantly greater population to draw talent from and are a cycling
superpower on the track, so they know bikes and bike racing.
I think it's incredibly hard for *anyone* to break into the
professional cycling fold, but there seems to be a disproportionate
number of Australian riders there at the moment, and in the pipeline,
both as domestiques and as contenders for stage wins, classics and Tour
GC/jersey contenders.
The argument that gets put about here quite often is "there's enough
Australians there now to make a team!" seems to directly contradict the
"we need a team to get more Aussies racing in Europe, there aren't
enough, it's too hard for them" position. I'm not suggesting that both
points are being made by you, but that there's two positions, that seem
to me to be mutually exclusive.
I think our system, which is quite similar to the American system,
where we have graded races and a clear progression (not without its
faults!) up through grades, lends itself to a very healthy local
competition and from that, highly talented riders get pushed hard
enough to make them really have to work, and then they get picked up by
teams. Eg : Richard England, Tommy Nankervis, Simon Gerrans, Will
Walker etc. D-P, as part of this, are great, and the path they're
providing adds another possible path for locals to progress (and pushes
the rest to work better), but make no mistake, a significant number of
very talented locals have been progressing for some time without D-P's
involvement, which is why I don't think, in this context, that it's a
big deal for Australian cycling in general.
> It will be interesting to see what happens to the
> D-P team and how management responds when their riders are made offers
> by other teams, and those offers accepted. This may be a desirable
> outcome for them, or it may not be, who knows.
If they're playing with the pros, they'll get poached unless they can
compete in the auction for talent.
> The newsworthiness of D-P being an "Australian" team is just that - a
> trade team made of up Australians only. It is unique in pro cycling,
> but I don't think hooligans will be out ramapaging in the gutters as
> the red train goes past because the team members are Australian. I
> think the tribes will unite because, as we all know, red is the fastest
> colour (despite not riding Treks/Giants/Orbeas), especially on porsches.
My T1 is red