Automated gearshift system

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by RenatoLacerda, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hello,

    First I'm new to the forum and would like your help to get some opinions.

    I'm doing a project in my Industrial Automation course at my Institute of Technology regarding a monitoring and automated gearshift system for cycling. And for programming and setting some parameters take into account the rider's speed, the force applied to the pedal, cadence, power and the relationship of speed to the best use of the rider pedaling.

    To set these parameters, I would like your help to get a feedback from those who really understands and practices this sport that is growing a lot.

    Please, if you can fill a small sheet for me to collect some data would be really great and help me adapt the idea from real data and mainly suggestions, tips, advice and opinions.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11kbMdmCdjUd7QJ2vqE8B-B5MEvgNj7SKFKs7E-5jf-M/edit?usp=sharing


    Once again I appreciate the space and attention.

    Thank you very much,

    Kind Regards,

    Renato
     
    Tags:
    Bicycleman likes this.


  2. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bicycleman likes this.
  3. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    11,945
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    You are aware that with Garmin and Magellan both integrating with Di2 systems, instructed shifting from the bicycle computer is only months to a couple of years away? More to the point, fully adjustable shift points can be programmed in using Wattage, cadence and gradient as shift control metrics.

    Personal gear choices, steps between gears, cadence under varying conditions, preferred power output under those conditions have made the various auto-shift transmission systems of the past pretty much footnotes in the development of the modern bicycle.

    Good luck, Renato.
     
    chrislee99777 and RenatoLacerda like this.
  4. Bicycleman

    Bicycleman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    90
    Automatic shifting? That's why I always drive manual shifts on both pickups. I know when to shift, not the automatic shifter. I remember whenever I went to the mountains driving my old 1985 Toyota 4 X 4 with automatic, I had to manually shift it, otherwise the truck never would downshift properly, causing me to have to ride the brakes down every steep mountain road.
     
    RenatoLacerda likes this.
  5. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    I've already taken a look at Di2 @CAMPYBOB and I liked it, but comparing the prices IMO it is very expensive. There are a lot of data and conditions to be analysed, but if you do it right I believe it can work. Taking the opinion and data of the cyclists and start questioning the conditions, combinations, modes and implementations are extremelly important and the first step. I'm committed to do it. Thank you very much!
     
  6. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    It's great to have your opinion @Bicycleman. Thank you, but what's necessary to make you trust in automatic shifiting? I agree that you need to be confident with the system, and there a lot of sensoring data that can completely ensure the right functioning, otherwise, in the project it is also possible to choose between automatically and manually shifting in different situations. Thanks a lot for your opinion!
     
    Bicycleman likes this.
  7. Bicycleman

    Bicycleman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    90
    You got it. I don't trust automatic shifting and just because a vehicle has the capability of manual shifting, it is really not true manual shifting. It is still an automatic shifter box. I looked at your spreadsheet, but I don't monitor my cadence and have no need to ascertain what power I am using to pedal the bike, nor do I care about heart rate. I am decidedly low tech in that I use a Sigma speed computer that supplies my needs. I don't use a Garmin GPS system because I see no need for a high tech device that is nothing more than an overpriced speedometer. I don't need a GPS system to tell me where I am, since I never go out anywhere unless I have a map to find out where I am or where I am going. Alas, I'm afraid I can't help you, since I am so low tech.
     
    chrislee99777 and RenatoLacerda like this.
  8. Bicycleman

    Bicycleman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    90
    Okay, I filled out what I could, but like I said before, I don't worry about cadence or power output. When all these concepts came out about power back when I was racing in my late 40's, I laughed then, and I'm still laughing at those who monitor all this. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I am old school.
     
    RenatoLacerda likes this.
  9. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    Thank you very much for your reply! I really appreciate it. For sure you don't need to sorry, I'm just 21 and it's me who have to learn a lot with the 'old school' @Bicycleman
     
  10. Bicycleman

    Bicycleman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    90
    Renato, you're dealing with an old codger, who's seen and done it all with bicycles. Thee is no substitute for real training, no matter how many gimmicks are out there. Automatic shifting? Maybe that will work, who knows? Now, bicycles are selling with disk brakes and everyone I have talked to about them, love them. If I do buy a bike in the future, It will be a Trek touring bike, and if I do buy one, I will probably go with disk brakes. If you have been in a rain storm like I was and had the moment when I mashed my brakes only to discover that they didn't work due to the rain, disk brakes would have been handy. I was very lucky I wasn't in the mountains instead of being in flat northeastern NC.
     
  11. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bicycleman, something that can be improved for sure are the brakes. Your experience was dangerous, imagine if you were in the mountains? I'm just a student open to receive all the opinions and suggestions that I can, for maybe design something important to help someone...
     
  12. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,264
    Likes Received:
    132
    You need to realize that the bicycle industry is seriously twisted, and doesn't follow the same rules as your average production industry.
    Manufacturers wants to sell, and new stuff is always a good selling point.
    So marketers are always pushing designers for new stuff to put in their catalogs.
    And pro riders will ride the kit provided, unless it actually hurt their chances of a podium finish.
    Then the weekend warriors come along, somehow getting some sort of payoff from using the same stuff as the pros.
    What this means is that there's no reliable connection between how much better a certain design is, and how much it'll cost to get.
    Plenty of examples there.
    Bike riding is a lifestyle choice, not a necessity.
    People who have the money will go for the new stuff, regardless of how fractional or even detrimental the improvement is.

    In a similar manner, something that doesn't fit the profile of the dedicated racer is unlikely to get picked up, even if it is an improvement - but maybe not one immediately related to the chances of a podium finish.

    I haven't checked the offerings of electronic shifting lately.
    I'll let the prices drop a bit more.
    Once they do, features that I'll be looking for are:
    -toggle shifting. Meaning I don't need to think about whether to shift front/rear, only up/down. The bike will figure out if next gear is a front or a rear shift or both.
    - automatic speed matching. Meaning if I coast towards an intersection, the bike will keep shifting so that I won't bog down when I start pedalling again.
    And some minor stuff like shifting from multiple positions, adjustable shift points, auto-tune. Maybe an automatic and a manual mode.

    Some of this might need a freewheeling crank to be mechanically achievable, which I think will be a tough sell for the racing image. It'll be heavier.
    And in the racing image, who the heck cares about freewheeling?
    Means you're off power, not a part of a racing image.

    Humans as engines are tricky.
    You can build something that monitors cadence, watt and heart rate easily enough.
    But it can't measure mood, determination.
    And even if GPS integration can tell it what road conditions are ahead, it can't tell what race conditions lies ahead.
    And there's plenty of tactics in a race.
    Maybe it's worth pushing a too high gear for awhile, if that's what it takes to drop an opponent.
    Or in order to try to psych him out.
     
    chrislee99777 and RenatoLacerda like this.
  13. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    I agree with you Dabac. Thank you very much for your suggestions and opinions. I really appreciate it!
     
  14. knight987

    knight987 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Auto shifting- what next? Let's all just jump into zwift and cut out the middle man!! People, ride your bike and enjoy. Manufacturers, stop dumbing it down !
     
  15. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,576
    Likes Received:
    364
    Personally I think the next big thing in cycling is the CVT hub, they already have working models now they're trying to pare down the weight, and when that happens in about 5 maybe 10 years it will hit the market as a product that will require very little maintenance and no brain to operate which is how humans are evolving...with no brains.
     
    RenatoLacerda likes this.
  16. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    11,945
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    NuVinci, toroidal transmissions, variable planetary gearboxes, Kopp variators and other versions of CVT's have never become popular.

    Browning has had several versions of their BAT on the market for many years, including a 12-speed electronically shifted version (not CVT, but a forerunner to the soon to be developed Di2/EPS computer-shifted models I mentioned above). Again, it was never popular.

    Yes, weight has been an issue, both major and minor, with some of the systems and not so much in others. Cost may have been a factor in the intended market segments for some of the systems not making much of a dent in sales figures. Lack of control over the systems may also have played a role in the lack of popularity as well as some of the systems offering limited gear ranges. Complexity and maintenance issues? Durability? A combination of the above?

    CVT's are a decent option for some applications and I also think we will see more of them in the future.
     
    RenatoLacerda likes this.
  17. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,576
    Likes Received:
    364
    You have limited eyesight don't you? Of course they're not popular now, they weigh too much to get people to buy them, just like the first electronic shifting systems were in 1990 which is why they didn't take off back then. No w expand your mind and add another 15 years to a CVT system from today, it's quite possible they can get a CVT to be very light weight, it's already trouble free, it's just the weight issue.
     
  18. chrislee99777

    chrislee99777 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    7
    welcome guy~
     
  19. RenatoLacerda

    RenatoLacerda New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hello guys!

    I don't know if you remember this post, but I finished my prototype of an Automatic Gearshift for Bikes, and I'm sharing a quick video on Youtube to take a look at the operation. Thanks a lot

    The link is:


    Regards,
    Renato
     
  20. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,576
    Likes Received:
    364
    It seems pretty good, i noticed the shifts seemed fast and positive.
    six questions:
    1) what is the weight of the auto unit?
    2) is it completely mechanical or does it use a battery, computer and software, and electric servos etc to operate?
    3) does it work under high loads like climbing mountains without having to release some pressure on the pedals?
    4) I assume it's based on whatever cadence the rider selects for max and min cadence before it shifts either up or down?
    5) is it robust or is it like those cheap autos they come out with every once in awhile you see on infomercials?
    6) is it, or will it be a strictly a recreational system or do you see perhaps at some point down the road it could find itself on the racing circuit?
    I hope this trans works out for you and you go far with it. I think gear shifting needs to evolve beyond what it is now even the electrical system they've come out with, I thought maybe someday a CVT trans would arise out of the dust once they got the weight down, but so far not much is happening with that technology, so maybe your's will be the direction things will go eventually. I don't mind manually shifting but I know the most of the world wants things done for them these days.
     
    RenatoLacerda likes this.
Loading...