AWC - comparison



peterwright

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Does anybody have a table of values for AWC for comparison purposes (a bit like the power profile doc)

If I run a CP for an athlete he inevitable asks about AWC numbers and what they mean and how his / her compare etc

Thanks
 

RapDaddyo

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peterwright said:
Does anybody have a table of values for AWC for comparison purposes (a bit like the power profile doc)

If I run a CP for an athlete he inevitable asks about AWC numbers and what they mean and how his / her compare etc

Thanks
One way to get a comparison number would be to use the CP parameters to compute the 5min power, convert to w/kg and compare with Andy's power profiling worksheet. Or do the same thing but for 1min.
 

scotmart

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peterwright said:
Does anybody have a table of values for AWC for comparison purposes (a bit like the power profile doc)

If I run a CP for an athlete he inevitable asks about AWC numbers and what they mean and how his / her compare etc

Thanks
I've often seen 300 thrown around as a 'good' AWC (i.e. it's a strength). So, how far you are, above or below, would be a good ball-park.

Scott
 

joemw

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scotmart said:
I've often seen 300 thrown around as a 'good' AWC (i.e. it's a strength). So, how far you are, above or below, would be a good ball-park.

Scott
Do you think that the amount of kj's one can put out in 30 seconds is a good indicator of AWC?

I hadn't been able to get many responses, but it seems that 17-18w/kg for 30 seconds is world class. That'd be about 510-540joules/kg I think...
 

acoggan

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joemw said:
Do you think that the amount of kj's one can put out in 30 seconds is a good indicator of AWC?

No - 30 s is really a "tweener" duration, with your performance determined by both your neuromuscular power and your anaerobic capacity. Thus, someone (like my wife) might have a very high AWC (i.e., 400 J/kg...roughly equivalent to ~500 J/kg for a guy), but a low 30 s power (due to low neuromuscular power).
 

acoggan

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RapDaddyo said:
One way to get a comparison number would be to use the CP parameters to compute the 5min power, convert to w/kg and compare with Andy's power profiling worksheet.

Power for 5 min is much more an indicator of your power at VO2max. For example, my AWC is on the low end of normal, but even at age 47 my 5 min power is still > 5 W/kg. (Indeed, even power for 1 min isn't immune to the impact of aerobic metabolism, e.g., my 1 min power is ~8.5 W/kg despite the fact that my anaerobic capacity is relatively low.)
 

RapDaddyo

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acoggan said:
Power for 5 min is much more an indicator of your power at VO2max. For example, my AWC is on the low end of normal, but even at age 47 my 5 min power is still > 5 W/kg. (Indeed, even power for 1 min isn't immune to the impact of aerobic metabolism, e.g., my 1 min power is ~8.5 W/kg despite the fact that my anaerobic capacity is relatively low.)
I would have preferred something in the 3min vicinity, but was looking for the best match from your power profiling worksheets and 1min seemed too short and too heavily influenced by NM.
 

peterwright

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But I still do not have a real guage of what is what in terms of AWC figures ..

Is there nothing out there ?

Andy - how about a table of values from world class downwards ?
 

acoggan

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RapDaddyo said:
I would have preferred something in the 3min vicinity, but was looking for the best match from your power profiling worksheets and 1min seemed too short and too heavily influenced by NM.

...but again, even a 1 min effort is influenced by aerobic power. IOW, there is no duration at which you can say that one, and only one, "energy system" is the determinant of power (although obviously you can get very close at the short end of the spectrum). Taking this into consideration (as well as the fact that world class track cyclists can ride 1 km in just over 1 min, i.e., data are available upon which to base standards), I settled on 1 min as being the best overall compromise. Clearly, though, the critical power paradigm is a better approach to this question, as it allows you to differentiate between AWC and aerobic energy production (i.e., critical power).
 

acoggan

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peterwright said:
But I still do not have a real guage of what is what in terms of AWC figures ..

Is there nothing out there ?

Andy - how about a table of values from world class downwards ?

Sorry, but I don't have the data with which to construct such a table. What I can say is that:

1) based on the scientific literature, the average untrained, college-aged male appears to have an AWC of ~200 J/kg,

2) on average, road cyclists aren't likely to be much better than untrained persons (since "it's an aerobic sport, dammit!"^TM),

3) I've seen values in male cyclists ranging from ~150 to ~550 J/kg,

4) on average, AWC is about 25% lower in women than in men, even when expressed relative to body mass (in part due to differences in body composition, but also apparently due to innate differences in skeletal muscle characteristics, e.g., smaller type II:type I fiber area ratio in women vs. men), and finally

5) the precise value you derive for AWC using the critical power paradigm is clearly dependent upon how the tests are conducted (in particular the duration of the efforts used in the calculations).
 

peterwright

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acoggan said:
Sorry, but I don't have the data with which to construct such a table. What I can say is that:

1) based on the scientific literature, the average untrained, college-aged male appears to have an AWC of ~200 J/kg,

2) on average, road cyclists aren't likely to be much better than untrained persons (since "it's an aerobic sport, dammit!"^TM),

3) I've seen values in male cyclists ranging from ~150 to ~550 J/kg,

4) on average, AWC is about 25% lower in women than in men, even when expressed relative to body mass (in part due to differences in body composition, but also apparently due to innate differences in skeletal muscle characteristics, e.g., smaller type II:type I fiber area ratio in women vs. men), and finally

5) the precise value you derive for AWC using the critical power paradigm is clearly dependent upon how the tests are conducted (in particular the duration of the efforts used in the calculations).

Thanks Andy - I am getting a better idea of the numbers.

I have two riders of a similar weight (77kg) and with virtually the same w/kg at the 1 & 5 min duration. The one rider however has FTP of 340 and the other of 320. The rider with the lower FTP has a higher AWC (per Monod 278 vs 228 using 1,5,10&20)

I am trying to demonstrate to the rider with the higher FTP but lower AWC that he needs to raise 1 & 5 min power relative to his FTP and not just in comparison to the other riders values.
 

RapDaddyo

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peterwright said:
I am trying to demonstrate to the rider with the higher FTP but lower AWC that he needs to raise 1 & 5 min power relative to his FTP and not just in comparison to the other riders values.
If you have some race files, I would think that going through a match analysis would drive the point home vividly (image: brick flying directly at one's face). I think you're onto something. IMO, AWC is grossly underappreciated by many as a determinant of race performance.
 

peterwright

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RapDaddyo said:
If you have some race files, I would think that going through a match analysis would drive the point home vividly (image: brick flying directly at one's face). I think you're onto something. IMO, AWC is grossly underappreciated by many as a determinant of race performance.

It has become more of an issue of late for me with these two riders that I am working with - the other variable is race experience of course but I suspect the one making more breaks than the other despite a lower FTP is more about AWC.