Back to basics.

[tomUK]

I'm seeking a little help on a training plan. My FTP seems to be declining rather than increasing despite doing longer ride, more often. I recently read a quote 'You don't advance your power output by riding around for three hours on a club run at whatever speed the leaders choose' which made a great deal of sense to me.

And so I've come to the conclusion that my current training plan is not working/effective. Where is a good place to start if I want to increase my FTP? How many 'sweet-spot' sessions should I do a week? 2?

Will L2 rides hurt this training? For example, could I do a L4 session on Tuesday and Thurs, yet still ride 40-50 miles on sat & suns without doing too much?

Lastly, does anyone else find that when doing the all out test (20 minutes sufferfest) that they feel 'odd' after? by odd I mean a little headachy, brain-fog and general a little 'out of it'?

Thanks everyone.

 

[lanierb]

Can you give us more background? How much do you ride per week and how long have you been doing it?

 

[tomUK]

Sure, I've been a rider for 8 years. I'd describe myself as someone who does about 100 miles per week. nothing major.

 

[An old Guy]

You are doing 80-100 miles total on Sat and Sun and only 100 miles per week. The balance seems wrong.

What are your 20 minute numbers? (I do a 1 hour test.) What do you want them to be? What numbers do you put up during group rides?

 

[lanierb]

OK, so first you are definitely in the range where more is better, and that would be true even if you were to ramp things up quite a bit. I.e. if you want to do L4 on T/Th, then adding a low L3 session on W will still be good not bad. Adding two more days on the weekend would be good too, and one of them could be pretty high intensity and/or long. Bottom line is it would be pretty hard to do too much as long as you build it up slowly (this is important).

Also, if you are mostly doing L2 right now, to increase your FTP you want to switch to doing mostly L3 instead -- some days could be low L3, some high L3. Go harder up hills (L4) and try to keep things steady so no long breaks (e.g. stoplights or descents). If you can handle some L4 workout then do that too. I would start with some SST rides (at about 90% FTP) and then work in some 2x20s later on (at 100% FTP). Don't blow yourself out though, and don't do two hard days in a row. If you are using a power meter and tracking TSS then as a general rule follow up any TSS>150 day with an easier day (low L3 for at most 2hrs).

Finally, if you want to do L2 instead of L3 for fun then that's fine too. It just won't help you raise your FTP as much.

 

[tomUK]

This raises an very interesting point; if I go out on a saturday, for example, and do a 2 hour ride that is in L2 primarily (maybe very low L3) and accumulate a TSS of 150 then the thought of riding a low L3 on sunday seems impossible to me. Why? a 150TSS ride leaves me feeling very fatigued and tired, often even irritable/grouchy. Is this only me?

maybe of interest to note, my blood work comes back normal (I am 'check box perfect'), I'm 36, 150lbs, 6ft tall, heart is in great shape (according to a cardiologist) and no other symptoms aside from just feeling totally wiped out after such a ride.

Any ideas? I'd pay a fortune to be able to move past this stage.

thanks.

 

[tomUK]

Sorry, missed this reply. I'm doing a total of 50-60 miles on sat and sun. Maybe 40 on sat, 20 on sun.

The test protocol that I followed was 20 min warm up, then 5 min ALL out (about 250-280W), 10 min rest then 20 min all out. The number for the 20 min all out was 210W (NP) and 205W (Ave. Pwr). back five years ago I was putting out 2x20min intervals at 270-280watt. I'd like to get back to that.

 

[lanierb]

A 2hr ride in L2 is <100 TSS points. To get TSS>150 you'd have to do at least 3hrs in L2, or at least 2hrs at 90% (L3/L4). I probably misspoke when I said you should do "low L3" the next day. L2 would probably be better, and you can do high L2 if you feel good.

Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with you if this sounds like a lot. I think you're just not very fit. You should just slowly increase your training from what you do now and after a month or two you will think differently about these kinds of rides. Also, you might find that when you get on the bike you feel better after 10-15 mins. If not, do a one hour recovery ride (L1) and then try again the next week.

 

[tomUK]

Sorry, I made an error. I mean a 3hours (not 2 hour) ride in L2. I'm getting a TSS of about 157.

Thanks for the advice. While you maybe correct in stating I'm not very fit (FTP-wise), I feel a little conflicted with this diagnosis. Not because it hurts my pride, but at 150lbs I can sprint (5 secs) at 1300 watts. Also, I always seem to drop people on climbs all the time. My FTP just seems awful.

I guess the big thing to me is the feeling after these hard rides, like the 20 min all-out test. I remember going to bed on Tuesday night feeling totally wiped out, not your 'its been a hard day and i'm ready to sleep' kind of thing but mores 'I think my body is just going to quit, it's so exhausted' type of feeling.

I wonder if I'm just training wrong? missing something? I just don't know!

 

[lanierb]

FTP and sprint wattage are measures of absolute power output, not fitness. CTL is a measure of fitness.

Not sure why you're so tired after workouts but I'd suspect some combination of lack of fitness (most likely), not enough sleep, or poor diet.

 

[tomUK]

thank you for taking the time to reply. I will heed your advice.

 

[chikinlegs]

"headachy, brain-fog and general a little 'out of it'?"
Sounds like dehydration to me, how much do you drink before/after and during your rides?
You probably know this after 8 years of riding but if your urine is not usually very pale and you don't drink regularly during the day I would experiment with hydration. Weigh yourself before and after rides, allowing for the weight of what you drink during the ride your weight change indicates how much fluid you sweat. If your hydration is good then maybe you are getting hyponatremic (low on salt). If you were dehydrated during your 20min MMP test it would have cost you quite a lot of power.
"I'd pay a fortune to be able to move past this stage."
That will be $5000 thanks.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by tomUK .

This raises an very interesting point; if I go out on a saturday, for example, and do a 2 hour ride that is in L2 primarily (maybe very low L3) and accumulate a TSS of 150 then the thought of riding a low L3 on sunday seems impossible to me. Why? a 150TSS ride leaves me feeling very fatigued and tired, often even irritable/grouchy. Is this only me?

maybe of interest to note, my blood work comes back normal (I am 'check box perfect'), I'm 36, 150lbs, 6ft tall, heart is in great shape (according to a cardiologist) and no other symptoms aside from just feeling totally wiped out after such a ride.

Any ideas? I'd pay a fortune to be able to move past this stage.

thanks.

You are not motivated. And you are in poor shape.

I have about the same FTP as you, 210-220w. I can do 175TSS rides every day (and I am old and in poor shape).

I would suggest that you increase your weekly mileage. Find a group that does 2-3 hour rides on Sat and Sun. When those feel comfortable, find a group that does more challenging rides.

 

[chikinlegs]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .



You are not motivated. And you are in poor shape.

I have about the same FTP as you, 210-220w. I can do 175TSS rides every day (and I am old and in poor shape).

I would suggest that you increase your weekly mileage. Find a group that does 2-3 hour rides on Sat and Sun. When those feel comfortable, find a group that does more challenging rides.

You can do 175TSS every day? Really? That would eventually give you a CTL of 175, thats pro territory.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by chikinlegs .




You can do 175TSS every day? Really? That would eventually give you a CTL of 175, thats pro territory.

If he can do anything on a daily basis it is make up grand highlights of his exploits as a cyclist.
It only takes a little knowledge of training to realize, as you noticed, the lack of credibility of this member. Just as many of us have witnessed constant contradictions in his posts.

 

[tomUK]

This question probably has no black or what answer; however, is there a 'recommended' of time spent in each zone. For example if someone said to me you have to rack up 400TSS, I could obviously do this in a few different ways - exclusively IF of 56-75, or exclusively of IF 95-105. One I'm sure would leave me almost dead at the end of the week whereas the other would maybe barely affect me. Maybe my question could be more specific: I'm going to try for a TSS of 350 this week. Assuming I'm targeting on building my FTP higher would an OK method be to do two sessions of 2x20 intervals (at sweet spot 88-92% ftp) and the rest as L2?

While I understand that TSS builds CTL, is IF not important in that figure too? it somewhat seems to be neglected if you will forgive the seeming paradox of that statement.

 

[lanierb]

Hey Tom -- Two things:

(1) I don't know what your CTL is right now, but you don't want to just pick a TSS/wk level and go for it right away. 350 isn't very much, but if you were completely untrained it might be. A good thing to aim for is raising CTL by about 4 pts per week, which is equivalent to raising TSS by about 25-30 pts per week (e.g. if you did 300 this week you can do 325 next week and 350 the one after that, etc)

(2) If you're only doing 350TSS per week I would try not to do *any* strictly L2 workouts. I would make your easiest day be L2/L3. Another day at highish L3 would be good, plus one at L2/L3 with your 2x20 mixed in. Depending on ride length that might be 350 right there (if you do 3 2hr rides). Make your rides as steady as possible (no rests), and lift the wattage a bunch (to low L4) on the hills (as long as they are not too long -- less if they are long).

You could also do 2 days of 2x20s if you want, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, and especially not if it tires you to the point that you shorten your ride. Also, if you haven't done 2x20s before you might want to start with 2x10 and work your way up. Don't change the intensity though -- do them at 90-100% for now. (I do 3x20 at 100-105% with low L3 to bring me up to 2hrs, but you have to work up to that.)

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by lanierb .
You could also do 2 days of 2x20s if you want, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, and especially not if it tires you to the point that you shorten your ride. Also, if you haven't done 2x20s before you might want to start with 2x10 and work your way up. Don't change the intensity though -- do them at 90-100% for now. (I do 3x20 at 100-105% with low L3 to bring me up to 2hrs, but you have to work up to that.)

Great advice and something I rarely see as people post up advice for training. Perhaps it is just something that is simply left out by accident It is something I have noted in my long history of training experience in a different activity and when I used to train people in lifting it is the basic foundation that training in general is typically progressive in nature. To be a successful coach it is to really good to understand how new the person is to training and to set goals that can be reached. When they are reached the person feels a sense of success rather than discouragement from a very lofty goal.

When I first started doing these intervals I tried to hit those intensities at those interval times and just could not complete the task. I realized this was something that I would need to work my way up to achieve. I had a local guy that would examine my data and say you did not do what I told you to do and I found this to be extremely frustrating because I gave it my best effort at that time. We rarely talk training anymore because he simply expects too much as if I should be matching what he is capable of doing. It was not just my fitness that had to be improved, but also it took me time to adapt to the fluid trainer and to learn to focus during the session. Those first few months of training last year with the KK trainer felt like upper L5 work and I struggled to finish a set of 20 minute effort at 0.85 IF, but not now.

Yesterday's goal
3 x 20 @ 91 to 99% FT

Actual recorded
1st set 20 @ .99 IF
2nd set 20 @ .93 IF
3rd set 20 @ .8 IF (my first set was a little too intense, but no matter because I feel like overall it was a good session)

Anyway I just thought it was great that you were nice enough to give this advice or note that it is a progressive step. It is good for those of us who are further back on the path of training to be encouraged by incremental steps instead of setting the bar as high as someone who has been racing and training at a high level for many years.

 

[tomUK]

Currently I'm at about 322TSS for the week. My one reason why I'm wanting to avoid L3 is - believe it or not - the heat. I was out on the road last night and did 75 mins at .72 IF and that felt like enough. It was 105 degrees on the road. Trying to do level 4 in the heat is a challenge in itself. I'm unable to ride in the morning as it is too dark then.

still, I was just wondering if substituting L2 for L3 would work so long as the TSS stays the same in total?

Thanks for the reply

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .



You are not motivated. And you are in poor shape.

I have about the same FTP as you, 210-220w. I can do 175TSS rides every day (and I am old and in poor shape).

I would suggest that you increase your weekly mileage. Find a group that does 2-3 hour rides on Sat and Sun. When those feel comfortable, find a group that does more challenging rides.

You have an FTP of 220watts and in poor shape yet mystically ride off into the distance at 31 mph on the flat and then ride up hills dropping everyone in sight with sustained efforts of 400+ watts with amazing regularity.

I'm only a mere peon as I find 5 minutes of ~375 to 380 watts pretty darned hard in my fairly untrained state. I bow down to your other-worldly ProTour Godlike self.