bad move by Lance

Stewart Fleming said:

When Vino attacks, he looks back.

Yeah, but was it "The look"?

JT

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Hey let's face it like it was. The move by Vino paid off but he was a bit
lucky as well as skilled. Had he gone down as he nearly did you all would
have been praising Discovery for their ability to read the course and make
the perfect decision to cruise that corner.

This just makes it a better race with unlimited possibilities in Paris.

Ken

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it would
be
no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am
shocked
he let him get away.

Laz

WTF was Armstrong gonna do? It's not like he was in a long distance
break and could really put time into the yellow jersey. They weren't
going to "reel him in" as a group.

I thought the whole group was gonna get ST with the crash being there.

And let's say Armstrong or the team did go after him and beat the
turn, avoid crashing and chase him down. All that risk for what? The 7
seconds? He would have had to beat Vino to avoid that bonus.

Considering they are in no hurry to even keep the yellow, 19 seconds
is a non factor compared to the risk of wet roads, wet paint and quack
city. Even if it is a GC contender.

D

IMKen said:

Hey let's face it like it was. The move by Vino paid off but he was a bit
lucky as well as skilled. Had he gone down as he nearly did you all would
have been praising Discovery for their ability to read the course and make
the perfect decision to cruise that corner.

This just makes it a better race with unlimited possibilities in Paris.

Ken

A-fking-men.

At least it was something exciting.

D

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it would be
no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am shocked
he let him get away.

Laz

Yeah, why the hell didn't Lance levitate himself above all the crashing cyclists. You know,
do a Jesus thing like walking on water. Shocking.

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:28:30 -0400, Stoic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it would be
no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am shocked
he let him get away.

Laz

Yeah, why the hell didn't Lance levitate himself above all the crashing cyclists. You know,
do a Jesus thing like walking on water. Shocking.

Same reason he rejected SC's plan to go down to the final bend and flash
the pack, distracting the peloton so he could make a break-away. Fair is
fair, after all.

HTH,

jj

Kurgan Gringioni said:

They'll bring him back.

Jan's not what he used to be.

Alexandre,
You miss the point. When they bring back Ullrich, then Kloden goes.
Then Vino. Sitting back and waiting for the DSC tempo on the climbs is
a dumb strategy. TMO are VERY quiet just now. Stages 8 and 9 will be
interesting.

Aspiring Tortoise said:

Laz <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it

would be

Quoted message said:

no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am

shocked

Quoted message said:

he let him get away.

How about "good move by Vino."

I really like the guy. He's the most promising source of excitement in
this race's GC competition. It's so fun to watch such a true opportunist.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall

Conservative dictionary:
Judicial Activist: n. A judge who tends to rule against your wishes.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it would

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am

shocked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he let him get away.

Laz

WTF was Armstrong gonna do? It's not like he was in a long distance
break and could really put time into the yellow jersey. They weren't
going to "reel him in" as a group.

I thought the whole group was gonna get ST with the crash being there.

And let's say Armstrong or the team did go after him and beat the
turn, avoid crashing and chase him down. All that risk for what? The 7
seconds? He would have had to beat Vino to avoid that bonus.

Considering they are in no hurry to even keep the yellow, 19 seconds
is a non factor compared to the risk of wet roads, wet paint and quack
city. Even if it is a GC contender.

D

I recognize your point- however, gradual increments is how the tour usually
changes and figureheads fall. Remember Big Mig when Riis killed him ? Big
Mig dominated, but Riis got closer to striking distance then one cold wet
day in the mountains history was made... Vino is known for the long solo
successful breakaway - he can do it. He can get away and stay away all by
himself. As T-Mobile has lost faith in Jan, some success or demonstrated
potential from Vino can ignite the team behind him- similarly, team
Discovery can lose faith with such success and it will be game over for
Lance. ( In my opinion ).

Laz

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff, I'm going to call Lance's comment as [censored].
When Vino attacks, he looks back. The guys on the front just look at
him and as the FdJ guy peels right, for a split second on the live feed,
you see Lance in about 3rd wheel looking right at Vino.

Lance was well back in the peloton at the crash, you can see Ullrich
through and riding and Lance just visible on the inside corner behind a
Liquigas rider.

Discovery screwed up.

Damn good observation. Do you think this is a lesson Lance will learn from
and not allow to repeat- or is he getting too tired to care ?

Laz

Stewart Fleming said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

They'll bring him back.

Jan's not what he used to be.

Alexandre,
You miss the point. When they bring back Ullrich, then Kloden goes.
Then Vino. Sitting back and waiting for the DSC tempo on the climbs is
a dumb strategy. TMO are VERY quiet just now. Stages 8 and 9 will be
interesting.

That's a good idea, but T-Mob have had five years to figure out
that waiting for USPS/Disco tempo doesn't work. Yet the only time
I can remember them laying down a good pre-emptive attack was Vino
in 2003 on the stage to Gap (the one where Beloki hit the dirt).
I'd like to see them do it, but have doubts.

Jeff Jones schreef:

Quoted message said:

. Great move.

yes... but it depends.
What if Vino had joined Mengin into the decorum with some consequences ?
Everyone would talk about foolish risk taking in shaky conditions, all for some
lousy potential seconds. Irresponsible for a GT contender.

And Discovery? Should they have taken immense risks on those roads with such a
chaotic pack, just for a few seconds? Don't think so.

in 469720 20050707 224440 Bob Schwartz said:

Years ago when Indurain and Rominger were going at it, I remember someone
complaining that Rominger never attacked in the mountains. Then someone
pointed out that the mountain stages were running hugely ahead of schedule
because of Banesto's nasty pace setting. Which meant that Rominger never
had a chance to attack.

Rominger attacked on the Tourmalet one year and had over 2 minutes on Indurain
as he went over the top, but Mig caught him halfway down the other side.

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it would

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am

shocked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he let him get away.

Laz

WTF was Armstrong gonna do? It's not like he was in a long distance
break and could really put time into the yellow jersey. They weren't
going to "reel him in" as a group.

I thought the whole group was gonna get ST with the crash being there.

And let's say Armstrong or the team did go after him and beat the
turn, avoid crashing and chase him down. All that risk for what? The 7
seconds? He would have had to beat Vino to avoid that bonus.

Considering they are in no hurry to even keep the yellow, 19 seconds
is a non factor compared to the risk of wet roads, wet paint and quack
city. Even if it is a GC contender.

D

I recognize your point- however, gradual increments is how the tour usually
changes and figureheads fall. Remember Big Mig when Riis killed him ? Big
Mig dominated, but Riis got closer to striking distance then one cold wet
day in the mountains history was made... Vino is known for the long solo
successful breakaway - he can do it. He can get away and stay away all by
himself. As T-Mobile has lost faith in Jan, some success or demonstrated
potential from Vino can ignite the team behind him- similarly, team
Discovery can lose faith with such success and it will be game over for
Lance. ( In my opinion ).

Laz

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:59:57 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Letting Vinokurov get ahead of him on Stage 6. Most other riders it
>would

be

Quoted message said:

>no big deal, but Vino is a serious threat to him in my opinion. I am

shocked

Quoted message said:

>he let him get away.
>
>Laz
>

WTF was Armstrong gonna do? It's not like he was in a long distance
break and could really put time into the yellow jersey. They weren't
going to "reel him in" as a group.

I thought the whole group was gonna get ST with the crash being there.

And let's say Armstrong or the team did go after him and beat the
turn, avoid crashing and chase him down. All that risk for what? The 7
seconds? He would have had to beat Vino to avoid that bonus.

Considering they are in no hurry to even keep the yellow, 19 seconds
is a non factor compared to the risk of wet roads, wet paint and quack
city. Even if it is a GC contender.

D

I recognize your point- however, gradual increments is how the tour
usually
changes and figureheads fall. Remember Big Mig when Riis killed him ? Big
Mig dominated, but Riis got closer to striking distance then one cold wet
day in the mountains history was made... Vino is known for the long solo
successful breakaway - he can do it. He can get away and stay away all by
himself. As T-Mobile has lost faith in Jan, some success or demonstrated
potential from Vino can ignite the team behind him- similarly, team
Discovery can lose faith with such success and it will be game over for
Lance. ( In my opinion ).

Laz

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

Armstrong as quoted in ProCycling:

Armstrong congratulated Alexandre Vinokourov on his late attack, that netted
the Kazakh a 19-second gain on the yellow jersey. "It was well played on his
part. It was also proof that you need to keep an eye on him because he is a
born attacker," said the Discovery Channel leader.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:19:40 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

Armstrong as quoted in ProCycling:

Armstrong congratulated Alexandre Vinokourov on his late attack, that netted
the Kazakh a 19-second gain on the yellow jersey. "It was well played on his
part. It was also proof that you need to keep an eye on him because he is a
born attacker," said the Discovery Channel leader.

Giving him "props" doesn't mean they regret not going after him.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals after
him.

Laz

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals after
him.

Laz

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
after
him.

Laz

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who expends
the energy to deny the time bonus.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:19:40 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

Armstrong as quoted in ProCycling:

Armstrong congratulated Alexandre Vinokourov on his late attack, that
netted
the Kazakh a 19-second gain on the yellow jersey. "It was well played on
his
part. It was also proof that you need to keep an eye on him because he is
a
born attacker," said the Discovery Channel leader.

Giving him "props" doesn't mean they regret not going after him.

They may or may not regret it later. Every second counts--to borrow a
phrase. :-)

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>
> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
after
him.

Laz

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who

expends

Quoted message said:

the energy to deny the time bonus.

But Lance was in the place to do that. The best chance he had to deny Vino
his time gain was to just go, he would lose valuable seconds just telling a
teammate to go after him. Hearing how angry he was over the loss of time for
that, I'm fairly certain he won't let that happen again, unless it's the
last day of the tour and he has the time to spare.

Laz