Barnett vs. Haynes vs. Zinn

[A Muzi]

[email protected] wrote:
> what about cuthbertson!!
>
> try the world catalog-all the world's library books-
> from the local library
> then click the blue hyperlink-order this book from another library-
> and get the manuals, touring guides, you name it
> in an interlibrary loan action.
> just bringum back!
>
Gene makes a good point about Cuthbertson.

I sell and recommend Tom Cuthbertson's 'Anybody's Bike Book'
for the neophyte cyclist who's interested in simple service
and a basic understanding of bikes. Clearly written and
comprehensible to the non-geek.

But then that second paragraph lost me.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jim Smith]

A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

> [email protected] wrote:
>> what about cuthbertson!!
>> try the world catalog-all the world's library books-
>> from the local library
>> then click the blue hyperlink-order this book from another library-
>> and get the manuals, touring guides, you name it
>> in an interlibrary loan action.
>> just bringum back!
>>
> Gene makes a good point about Cuthbertson.
>
> I sell and recommend Tom Cuthbertson's 'Anybody's Bike Book' for the
> neophyte cyclist who's interested in simple service and a basic
> understanding of bikes. Clearly written and comprehensible to the
> non-geek.
>
> But then that second paragraph lost me.

It was some sort of socialist, anti-american, terorist talk about how
one can get any book at all through inter-library loan, usualy for
free or a couple dollars. Not everyone is happy with that situation,
of course.

 

[Neil Brooks]

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>>Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>news:[email protected]:
>>>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.
>>>>And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the
>>>>shelves of a
>>>>used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes
>>>>the
>>>>Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.
>
>>> "Ken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with
>>> essentially no
>>>tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for
>>> beginners (and
>>>much cheaper, too).
>
>Jay Beattie wrote:
>> Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair
>> manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such
>> as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.
>> It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and
>> SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the
>> only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to
>> book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the
>> chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that
>> qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>I just assumed that was outright theft.
>
>I was amazed at the blasé comments here, as if it were
>acceptable behavior.

Bear in mind, Andy, that--at least in the past, and IIRC--Barnett's
used to rotate which chapters could be downloaded from their site. A
watchful and patient person could acquire the entire book for free in
substantially less time than is required to make, say, a pearl, a
diamond, or a blue dwarf.

BBI currently has six chapters up:

http://www.bbinstitute.com/manual.htm#order/download3

Based on this, I'm not sure their stance has been as aggressive as one
might think. Enough to shut down the full download from
BikeForums.net, but not necessarily going after terminally patient
one-offs.

 

[Neil Brooks]

Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:

>A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>>Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>news:[email protected]:
>>>>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.
>>>>>And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the
>>>>>shelves of a
>>>>>used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes
>>>>>the
>>>>>Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.
>>
>>>> "Ken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with
>>>> essentially no
>>>>tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for
>>>> beginners (and
>>>>much cheaper, too).
>>
>>Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair
>>> manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such
>>> as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.
>>> It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and
>>> SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the
>>> only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to
>>> book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the
>>> chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that
>>> qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.
>>
>>I just assumed that was outright theft.
>>
>>I was amazed at the blasé comments here, as if it were
>>acceptable behavior.
>
>Bear in mind, Andy, that--at least in the past, and IIRC--Barnett's
>used to rotate which chapters could be downloaded from their site. A
>watchful and patient person could acquire the entire book for free in
>substantially less time than is required to make, say, a pearl, a
>diamond, or a blue dwarf.
>
>BBI currently has six chapters up:
>
>http://www.bbinstitute.com/manual.htm#order/download3
>
>Based on this, I'm not sure their stance has been as aggressive as one
>might think. Enough to shut down the full download from
>BikeForums.net, but not necessarily going after terminally patient
>one-offs.

A bit more info: I just received an e-mail back from one of the hosts
of one of the bike forum websites that *did* put the entire book
online once upon a time--in response to my question about John
Barnett's request that people cease making the entire manual available
gratis. Quoting:

"Neil, the request was very cordial, IIRC, he asked two or three other
sites to remove the book, all the sites had each and every chapter
avalible for download. If you look hard, you can find all the chapters
still floating around."

I *do* get the feeling this wasn't a particular hot button for John.

 

[Tom Sherman]

A Muzi wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> what about cuthbertson!!
>>
>> try the world catalog-all the world's library books-
>> from the local library
>> then click the blue hyperlink-order this book from another library-
>> and get the manuals, touring guides, you name it
>> in an interlibrary loan action.
>> just bringum back!
>>
> Gene makes a good point about Cuthbertson.
>
> I sell and recommend Tom Cuthbertson's 'Anybody's Bike Book' for the
> neophyte cyclist who's interested in simple service and a basic
> understanding of bikes. Clearly written and comprehensible to the non-geek.
>
> But then that second paragraph lost me.

Go to 201 West Mifflin Street, Madison, WI 53703. You will likely spend
more time waiting at red lights and locking your bike than actually
riding.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

 

[RonSonic]

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:18:19 -0800, "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
><[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Ken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote in
>> >> news:[email protected]:
>> >> >>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.
>> >> >
>> >> > And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the
>> >shelves of a
>> >> > used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's
>makes
>> >the
>> >> > Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.
>> >>
>> >> Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with
>> >essentially no
>> >> tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better
>for
>> >beginners (and
>> >> much cheaper, too).
>> >
>> >Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a
>repair
>> >manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications
>such
>> >as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension,
>etc.
>> >It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet
>and
>> >SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the
>> >only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a
>how-to
>> >book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see
>the
>> >chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that
>> >qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay
>Beattie.
>>
>> Barnett's web site has PDF'd chapters available as samples.
>
>Hey, why sell it when you can give it away! If your are
>persistent, can you get all of the chapters? -- Jay Beattie.

I think not. After all Barnett's is not in the recording industry so doesn't
make it easier to steal their product than buy it.

Ron

 

[Steven L. Sheffield]

On 03/08/2005 01:17 PM, in article
[email protected], "spin156"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Ok, Haynes and Zinn are both very good for "general" maintenance of
> common bikes. Another book that belongs with these two is the Jim
> Langley "Bicycle Repair and Maintenance" book from Bicycling Magazine.
> Barnett's is much more in depth, and, in my opinion, worth the
> money. For a new wheelbuilder, Barnetts is excellent. Also,
> Barnetts goes in depth about troubleshooting specific problems and has
> lists of suggested (and preferred) tools for each type of task. I
> own them all and wish I had bought Barnett's first. I got Barnett's
> for $80 (the new edition) on sale, but lately I have not seen it
> cheaper than $125.


Available from Amazon.com for $78.72 for the 5th edition (2003):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931382298/veluninc/103-6147756-28206



> I don't own Sutherlands, but it goes for ~$190 (!!!). I'd be
> interested to hear what the difference is between Sutherlands and
> Barnetts. Comments?
>

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash