Barr Beacon and the Ice Lolly

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Richard Bates, Jul 27, 2003.

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  1. Did a ten mile ride this evening. Up to the top of Barr Beacon, just north of Birmingham.
    (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newprint.srf?x=406500&y=297500&z=4)

    It's the highest point for miles and miles. I was too early to watch the sunsetting over Walsall
    (often a fantastic sight) but the sky was clear enough to be able to the Lickey hills south of
    Birmingham.

    It's amazing how refreshing an orange ice lolly can be!
    --
    If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit. To mail me,
    change the obvious bit to richard
     
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  2. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

  3. On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:28:24 GMT, "Tenex" <[email protected]> in
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?

    Maybe be that would explain why there was a police car up there? It's the first I'd heard of a
    shooting up there.
    --
    If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit. To mail me,
    change the obvious bit to richard
     
  4. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

  5. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    elyob wrote:
    > "Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:28:24 GMT, "Tenex" <[email protected]> in
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?
    >>
    >> Maybe be that would explain why there was a police car up there? It's the first I'd heard of a
    >> shooting up there.
    >
    > Accidental shooting? ... http://tinyurl.com/i97l

    No not that. When people are taught to shoot (generally rifle but also pistol) the Barr Beacon
    incident is a cautionary safety tale.

    I can't remember it in detail but it happened 30-40 years ago and runs like this: a man was shooting
    with a sporting .22, he was somewhere well down the hill concentrating on ground based animals-
    rabbits probably - but upon seeing a bird in a tree he lifted his rifle and fired, but missed. On
    the other side of the hill a family were picnicing(?) and the trajectory of the shot was such that
    the bullet passed over the hill and killed the father as he sat with his wife and children.
     
  6. Tenex wrote:
    > Richard Bates wrote:
    >
    >>Did a ten mile ride this evening. Up to the top of Barr Beacon, just north of Birmingham.
    >>(http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newprint.srf?x=406500&y=297500&z=4)
    >>
    >>It's the highest point for miles and miles.
    >
    >
    > Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?
    >
    >

    Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?

    You have a gun It's loaded and cocked The trigger is pulled Gun discharges.

    Where is the accident?

    --
    Dnc
     
  7. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Doesnotcompute wrote:
    > Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?
    >
    > You have a gun It's loaded and cocked The trigger is pulled Gun discharges.
    >
    > Where is the accident?

    Depends on the meaning of shooting. An accidental death such as illustrated above versus a process
    namely firing a gun in a situation in which nothing living is hit I'd say.
     
  8. Tenex wrote:
    > Doesnotcompute wrote:
    >
    >>Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?
    >>
    >>You have a gun It's loaded and cocked The trigger is pulled Gun discharges.
    >>
    >>Where is the accident?
    >
    >
    > Depends on the meaning of shooting. An accidental death such as illustrated above versus a process
    > namely firing a gun in a situation in which nothing living is hit I'd say.

    Hmm. If the trigger was pulled by a finger, then there is no accident about it. Whilst the death may
    not have been premeditated (Murder) and was an unfortunate event of circumstance (Manslaughter) it
    cannot be defined an "accidental shooting". The gun was prepared and discharged deliberately.

    If the gun discharged with no deliberate mechanism, ie a fault, then that could possibly be
    accidental, but why a locked and loaded weapon was being pointed at someone is still dubious. First
    rule of handling a gun - do _not_ point it at anyone - even if it is not loaded.

    And to think, some Merkians can purchase weaponry before they can drink or drive!

    --
    Dnc
     
  9. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Doesnotcompute wrote:
    > but why a locked and loaded weapon was being pointed at someone is still
    dubious.

    It appears you didn't read my post. The reason this incident is used as an example is the fact that
    the gun user was on the opposite side of the hill to the picnic and there was no prospect of seeing
    the picnickers. It is used to illustrate the fact that trajectory has a significant impact on range
    and thereby on the safe use of firearms.
     
  10. "Tenex" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Doesnotcompute wrote:
    > > but why a locked and loaded weapon was being pointed at someone is still
    > dubious.
    >
    >
    > It appears you didn't read my post. The reason this incident is used as
    an
    > example is the fact that the gun user was on the opposite side of the hill to the picnic and there
    > was no prospect of seeing the picnickers. It is used to illustrate the fact that trajectory has a
    > significant impact on range and thereby on the safe use of firearms.

    No I did read your post, you've quoted me out of context. Even in the case in your post the
    shooting was not accidental. The bearer of arms deliberately pulled the trigger to discharge the
    weapon. No accident.

    --
    Dnc
     
  11. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    doesnotcompute wrote:
    > No I did read your post, you've quoted me out of context. Even in the case in your post the
    > shooting was not accidental. The bearer of arms deliberately pulled the trigger to discharge the
    > weapon. No accident.

    The law recognises, in the case of illegal killing of a human, the presence or absence of intent
    (mens rea) to do harm to that individual, which is recognised in the differing charges of murder
    (with intent) and manslaughter (without intent).

    For example, assume that A shoots deliberately at B intending to kill B. A misses and the ricochet
    hits C. A is likely to be found guilty of manslaughter not murder because of the absence of intent.

    My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling of the trigger was
    accidental but that the death of an individual was accidental.
     
  12. Tenex wrote:

    > My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling of the trigger was
    > accidental but that the death of an individual was accidental.

    It appears to be you who is missing the point. I have never disagreed that the death of the
    individual was unfortunate and not deliberate.

    I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting" as described in the
    original post.

    --
    Dnc
     
  13. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:47:02 GMT,
    Tenex <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > For example, assume that A shoots deliberately at B intending to kill B. A misses and the
    > ricochet hits C. A is likely to be found guilty of manslaughter not murder because of the absence
    > of intent.
    >
    I don't believe this is true. (IANAL) if you perform an action that is intended to harm another
    person and someone dies as a result, regardless of whether it was the person you intended to harm,
    then generally you will be prosecuted for murder.

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  14. On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:03:58 +0100, Doesnotcompute <[email protected]> in
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Tenex wrote:
    >
    >> My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling of the trigger was
    >> accidental but that the death of an individual was accidental.
    >
    >It appears to be you who is missing the point. I have never disagreed that the death of the
    >individual was unfortunate and not deliberate.
    >
    >I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting" as described in the
    >original post.

    Hey, everybody, calm down. I only said that ihad an ice lolly!

    Love and juice from Rich x

    --
    If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit. To mail me,
    change the obvious bit to richard
     
  15. Marc

    Marc Guest

    Doesnotcompute <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting" as described in the
    > original post.
    The shooting was accidental, the discharge of the weapon wasn't.

    --
    Marc Stickers,decals,membership,cards, T shirts, signs etc for clubs and associations of all types.
    http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk/
     
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