Basic navigational skills badly missing

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"[censored]! Look at the speed! Daren't drop the flaps yet. What was
that heading? Have I got the gear down? I've gone through the
centre line!

Switch on the GPS and go around"!

Flew from Swansea to Southampton a few days ago in a Baron 58 Turbo, at
sunrise. Conditions were pretty clear when I took off, with just a few
clouds around, but got a bit foggier on the other side of the channel. By
the time I reached Hampshire there was a thick ground fog covering the
entire area and I couldn't see squat.

I used the GPS to line myself up with the runway, switching to ILS as I got
closer. Unfortunately there's no flight director in the Baron 58 and I
misjudged the distance and descent rate, so by the time I dropped below the
fog bank (fortunately it didn't extend right down to the ground) the airport
was right below me and I was way too high.

I couldn't be arsed to go around so I put the plane into a Stuka dive
(amidst frantic cries of "watch your descent rate! watch your descent rate!"
from my co-pilot), pulling back on the stick just in time. It was a pretty
long runway for a small plane so I knew I had plenty of time to lose speed
and land nicely just before it ran out.

The passengers opinion of the flight was mostly excellent, apart from those
few moments of sheer terror at the end!

What are you drinking - I'll have a couple :-)

What did the neighbours think of all the noise?
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Roger said:

The Summit has no provision for turning the track off and on an that
is one feature on the Vista C I have taken a little getting used to.

Very handy that, especially if you use it in the car too.

Paul

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So it's an optional necessity or maybe an unnecessary essential? I
see.

Quoted message said:

It's an optional extra which *may* become necessary in certain situations.
:-)

Got ya. Excellently put.

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Summit has no provision for turning the track off and on an that
is one feature on the Vista C I have taken a little getting used to.

Quoted message said:

Very handy that, especially if you use it in the car too.

Yes indeed but it is remembering to turn the track on when I start
walking and off when I stop that is the problem.

The Vista C also has an on road navigation feature that is truly awful.
When I went on the Tibbie Shiels expedition it wanted to route me off
the M6 into the Lake District on the way to Scotland and when I left the
A74 all it wanted to do as to take me back to it. And went I last went
to S Wales it was perhaps even worse. It wanted to take me off the M62
East of Manchester and approaching Welshpool on a little diversion to
the eponymous golf course (Y Golfa, yes it really is a Marilyn) it got
stuck in an endless recalculating loop that did not end until I was
within about a mile of my intended destination.

I had an expensive proprietary power lead for it for a time (couldn't
use the perfectly adequate one for the Summit) but it kept blowing the
20 amp fuse on the cigarette lighter circuit so I sent it back to Garmin
who claimed they couldn't find anything wrong with it. They did how ever
refund the cost.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:40:36 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Dominic Sexton <[email hidden]> wrote :
<->

Quoted message said:

When the pilot spotted the runway we were about half way along and
perhaps 100m to the left - the swerve and dive was most unsettling.

:-)

I'm mildly surprised you didn't get 'surcharged' for the extra
excitement.

--
Time may be a great healer,
but he's a lousy beautician

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:39:22 GMT
in <news:[email hidden]>
druidh <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:50:02 GMT
in <news:[email hidden]>
druidh <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces wrote:

>On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 00:19:32 -0000
>in <news:[email hidden]>
>Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

<->

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>In hindsight it's easy to see that carrying a GPS would
>>have been a good idea, although it probably wasn't so obvious beforehand.
>
>As far as I can see there is nothing to suggest in the reports that they
>wouldn't have needed rescuing if they had. Granted, it *may* have
>reduced the chances of intervention. But nothing is certain.
>

They may still have need rescued - but theey'd have been ablt to tell
the MRT where they were instead of having them search the wrong hill!!

<pedant>
I am not being wholely understanding your engihs/tiping
</>

In any case - you are making assumptions. Strong assumptions, maybe, but
assumptions none-the-less.

The only assumption I'm making is that if they'd had a GPS, they'd have
been able to read a GR from it, thus directing the MRT to the right place.

Yes, a stong assumption.
Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
[censored] deal ;-)

--
....and the homing facility on their umbrella had failed.
[Langdale and Ambleside MRT callout report]

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

The only assumption I'm making is that if they'd had a GPS, they'd
have been able to read a GR from it,

Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
[censored] deal ;-)

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

Paul

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >and tell us where in the sequence
> >of phone calls you would place the one that provoked Anonymous to say
> >"WHY couldn't they even tell which direction they were faceing down hill
> >untill they indicated the direction of the wind" and what you think he
> >actually meant by it.

Can't answer or won't answer?

Quoted message said:

Can't answer because as I said above "I'm simply not prepared to make
the same assumptions that you are."

Still digging your hole. You are not required to make the same
assumptions at all. All I asked were 2 simple questions that even a 10
year old should be able to answer.

My apologies, let me clarify; I'm simply not prepared to make
assumptions.

Quoted message said:

1. Where in the sequence of phone calls would you place the one that
provoked Anonymous to say
"WHY couldn't they even tell which direction they were faceing down hill
untill they indicated the direction of the wind".

I've no idea, ask him.

Quoted message said:

2. What you think he actually meant by it.

Exactly what he said, no more, no less.

Daytona

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:49:15 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

The only assumption I'm making is that if they'd had a GPS, they'd
have been able to read a GR from it,

Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
[censored] deal ;-)

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

And that they couldn't navigate? And that they couldn't relocate? And
that it get bl**dy cold in an unplanned overnighter?

(looks at thread count)
Possible candidate for longest thread of the year?
<g>

--
Chocolate has many preservatives.
Preservatives make you look younger.

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can't answer because as I said above "I'm simply not prepared to make
the same assumptions that you are."

Still digging your hole. You are not required to make the same
assumptions at all. All I asked were 2 simple questions that even a 10
year old should be able to answer.

Quoted message said:

My apologies, let me clarify; I'm simply not prepared to make
assumptions.

You have already made 2 about Anonymous. The first that he is a reliable
witness and the second that what he said is proof positive that they
knew where thay were.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Where in the sequence of phone calls would you place the one that
provoked Anonymous to say
"WHY couldn't they even tell which direction they were faceing down hill
untill they indicated the direction of the wind".

Quoted message said:

I've no idea, ask him.

That figures.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. What you think he actually meant by it.

Quoted message said:

Exactly what he said, no more, no less.

And you still think they weren't lost when they didn't know which side
of the hill they were on?

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
[censored] deal ;-)

Quite. I know some people get confused, but it's hardly rocket science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

And that they couldn't navigate? And that they couldn't relocate?

And how's that going to help them in the future? Maybe persuade them to
stay at home in front of a nice warm fire instead?

Quoted message said:

And
that it get bl**dy cold in an unplanned overnighter?

It can get pretty cold on planned ones too! :-(

Quoted message said:

(looks at thread count)
Possible candidate for longest thread of the year?
<g>

Is that my fault? ;-)

Paul

Paul Saunders said:

And yet, in your very next post to Peewiglet, you complain about her
condemning people as stupid (your interpretation of her words).

Some people are stupid. Fact. I won't deny it. Sometimes I'm one
of them.

But only condemn people as stupid when you have good evidence that
they are.

Quoted message said:

At least try to be consistent Pete. :-)

No inconsistency there.

Quoted message said:

But to answer your point about the Ben. Yes, it is less stupid. They are
following other walkers on well worn paths

Not very obvious paths if there's been a fresh fall of snow...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Paul Saunders said:

Over 6 years, neither of mine have ever gone wrong. Maybe you were just
unlucky.

I almost certainly have been.

But the fact remains that a GPS receiver cannot be trusted to
anything like the same degree as, say, a wristwatch.

Quoted message said:

A lot of people can't do tricksy navigation. Obviously a GPS is unecessary
for those with such skills, but potentially very useful for those who can't.

Nobody has ever denied that.

Quoted message said:

No, I don't think it's a fair charge. To say that GPS is an optional extra
is a fair charge, to claim that it's an *unnecessary* optional extra is
going too far.

Not at all. By the very definition of "optional", at least as *I*
use it, it is unnecessary!

Quoted message said:

This is what bothers me most in these arguments. I am in no way trying to
claim that GPS is essential, but it really annoys me when people label it as
unnecessary

If it is not essential then it goes without saying that you can go
without it. Necessity implies you cannot go without it. LAck of
necessity takes us to "unnecessary".

Looks like we're falling into word games again...

Quoted message said:

One could equally argue that waterproofs are unnecessary, if you're walking
in a dry climate.

That would be ridiculous in a wet climate, but many people have
managed without waterproofs in a wet climate. They are unnecessary
/as long as you can stay warm enough on your walk/.

Quoted message said:

Maps are unnecessary, if you're familiar with the area.
Rucksacks are unnecessary, if you don't need to carry any equipment. Pretty
much everything that walkers tend to carry could be labelled as unnecessary,
in certain conditions.

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

You're just labelling GPS as unnecessary because *you* don't need it.

No, because as decades of non-use in all conditions by hllwalkers
at many levels of experience has *proved* the hillwalking public at
large can get by without them.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 20:00:14 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

> Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
> [censored] deal ;-)

Quite. I know some people get confused, but it's hardly rocket science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

And that they couldn't navigate? And that they couldn't relocate?

And how's that going to help them in the future? Maybe persuade them to
stay at home in front of a nice warm fire instead?

What do /you/ do when /you/ discover a gap in your knowledge? Me? If it
is something I'll likely be needing again, then I try to plug the gap in
the most cost-effective way. I would not want to persuade them stay at
home in front of a warm fire, but would not condemn them if that is how
they wanted to approach the 'problem'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And
that it get bl**dy cold in an unplanned overnighter?

It can get pretty cold on planned ones too! :-(

pretty <> bl**dy <g>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(looks at thread count)
Possible candidate for longest thread of the year?
<g>

Is that my fault? ;-)

Who said it was?

--
If you have trouble getting your children's attention
just sit down and look comfortable.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 20:00:14 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

> Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
> [censored] deal ;-)

Quite. I know some people get confused, but it's hardly rocket science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

And that they couldn't navigate? And that they couldn't relocate?

And how's that going to help them in the future? Maybe persuade them to
stay at home in front of a nice warm fire instead?

What do /you/ do when /you/ discover a gap in your knowledge? Me? If it
is something I'll likely be needing again, then I try to plug the gap in
the most cost-effective way. I would not want to persuade them stay at
home in front of a warm fire, but would not condemn them if that is how
they wanted to approach the 'problem'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And
that it get bl**dy cold in an unplanned overnighter?

It can get pretty cold on planned ones too! :-(

pretty <> bl**dy <g>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(looks at thread count)
Possible candidate for longest thread of the year?
<g>

Is that my fault? ;-)

Who said it was?

--
If you have trouble getting your children's attention
just sit down and look comfortable.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 20:00:14 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

> Based on that, what would they have learnt? How to read a GPS? Big
> [censored] deal ;-)

Quite. I know some people get confused, but it's hardly rocket science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what did they learn instead? How to use a mobile phone?

And that they couldn't navigate? And that they couldn't relocate?

And how's that going to help them in the future? Maybe persuade them to
stay at home in front of a nice warm fire instead?

What do /you/ do when /you/ discover a gap in your knowledge? Me? If it
is something I'll likely be needing again, then I try to plug the gap in
the most cost-effective way. I would not want to persuade them stay at
home in front of a warm fire, but would not condemn them if that is how
they wanted to approach the 'problem'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And
that it get bl**dy cold in an unplanned overnighter?

It can get pretty cold on planned ones too! :-(

pretty <> bl**dy <g>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(looks at thread count)
Possible candidate for longest thread of the year?
<g>

Is that my fault? ;-)

Who said it was?

--
If you have trouble getting your children's attention
just sit down and look comfortable.

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Looks like we're falling into word games again...

I know! Let's all go walking instead!
--
Gordon Harris

W. D. Grey said:

<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

W. D. Grey said:

about 1.5 km south of the summit of Fan Brycheiniog. This is a vast
open moorland, completely featureless.

And with grass-covered swallow holes in the ground. That would be fun
in a whiteout!

Quoted message said:

True Rudi, but entirely hypothetical seeing as I went in the summer with
no fog, and by the way there are no swallow holes south of Fan
Brycheiniog. The Limestone is much further south nearer Sinc Giedd.

I didn't mean to suggest you went there in those conditions, Bill. The
swallow holes aren't actually that far away but quite a bit lower down.
It makes a good circular from Glyntawe to Fan Brycheiniog - one way through
the holey bit and then back along Fan Hir or vice versa. There's one nasty
stream crossing though (Afon Twrch).
--
Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

In article <[email hidden]>, Rudi Winter
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I didn't mean to suggest you went there in those conditions, Bill.

Hi Rudi - I believe Roger has walked there on those very conditions and
missed the Vampire wreck by a few yards. Not nice.

Quoted message said:

The
swallow holes aren't actually that far away but quite a bit lower down.
It makes a good circular from Glyntawe to Fan Brycheiniog - one way through
the holey bit and then back along Fan Hir or vice versa. There's one nasty
stream crossing though (Afon Twrch).

Yes indeed. It was Fran I think asked about the Sink holes some time
ago, and as you say the area is pockmarked with them with some being
very deep. The river of which you speak I believe is the Afon Haffes
near the Gwyn Arms - a bit further up the valley from the Show caves.

Normally the Haffes is just a load of boulders to cross without much
water

--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Rudi Winter
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I didn't mean to suggest you went there in those conditions, Bill.

Hi Rudi - I believe Roger has walked there on those very conditions and
missed the Vampire wreck by a few yards. Not nice.

Quoted message said:

The
swallow holes aren't actually that far away but quite a bit lower down.
It makes a good circular from Glyntawe to Fan Brycheiniog - one way through
the holey bit and then back along Fan Hir or vice versa. There's one nasty
stream crossing though (Afon Twrch).

Yes indeed. It was Fran I think asked about the Sink holes some time
ago,

<Waves> It certainly was. Someone (you? Paul?) had mentioned them and
I was having difficulty working out what on earth they were. IIRC there
were two varieties, depending on whether there was a river underneath or
the remains of one descending from the surface. Or something.

--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.