Basic navigational skills badly missing

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 23:36:05 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Daytona <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:14:00 +0000in
<news:[email hidden]>
Daytona <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

*shrugs* quote from one of those involved -

Which one?

Dunno, posting anonymously on Rockfax -
<URL:http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=156500#2222094>

Daytona

Good, attributable source <g>.

--
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Indicates to me that they were not properly equipped for the
conditions and their level of experience. I assume the MRTs operation
means that they could not have sat it out.

That's your lack of experience talking. They could however have got up
off their arses and walked out without help. The only equipment they
were lacking was the mental equipment.

Quoted message said:

If they suspected that they didn't have the experience to walk out
from a hostile environment then it's common sense to me that they
should have equipped themselves to be able sit it out ie food,
shelter, warmth. People are different. They have different levels of
experience. They may be aware of their level of experience, they may
not. By exposing themselves to different conditions they increase
their experience however, they may only find the limit of their
experience when they're in trouble.

If they suspected they didn't have the experience to walk out from a
hostile environment common sense would dictate that they wouldn't have
walked in.

This group undoubtedly bit off more than they could chew but no one but
you thinks they were ill equipped. As far as I can tell they went out
for a day walk and took more gear than I for one would have taken. (But
then as I have said before I wouldn't have got lost). For some obscure
reason you don't think they were lost but even Anonymous who you cited
to support your views clearly thought so. Apart from all the other
evidence how else can you interpret "WHY couldn't they even tell which
direction they were faceing down hill untill they indicated the
direction of the wind."

Quoted message said:

I simply don't believe it's as black and white as you picture it.

It was snowing I believe. The picture would have been predominantly
white at least until it got dark.

I don't think anyone has said where they set out from but the summit of
Macdui is about 4 miles (in a straight line) from the nearest road
(Corrie Cas) and twice as far (Linn of Dee) on the side of the hill they
were on. Either way it is a long way from where they must have intended
to be at the end of the day.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:17:15 GMT, Roger <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Navigational mistakes happen, even to people trained in navigation who
were paying attention to what they were doing. The only way to avoid
them entirely is to stay in the house.

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills. Skills quite a lot more
sophisticated than that are required in those sorts of conditions. I'm
basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
start labelling them.

Given that the Mountain Rescue are usually loath to criticise those they
rescue

That's not been my observation.

Quoted message said:

"What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic
elemental skill that you should have going into hills in the winter" is
a pretty damning indictment. A mobile phone is not a substitute for map
and compass or even a GPS.

Who mentioned a mobile phone? Not me: that's for sure.

Quoted message said:

It is a pity that the article doesn't say where they were found.
Navigating from Macdui to Cairngorm is relatively straightforward and it
is difficult to see how they could have gone so wrong unless they made
an absolutely monumental blunder and ended up on Beinn Mheadhoin but
even that doesn't really warrant "a number of miles away". Derry
Cairngorm anyone?

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

So many questions, so few answers. So many opinions.

Right. So little information, but (predictably, here) so many people
keen to jump in and label other people idiots.

Quoted message said:

And so easy to say what we'd have done in those circumstances even
though we don't know the full details. Isn't 20:20 hindsight wonderful.

Exactly.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Navigational mistakes happen, even to people trained in navigation who
were paying attention to what they were doing. The only way to avoid
them entirely is to stay in the house.

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills. Skills quite a lot more
sophisticated than that are required in those sorts of conditions. I'm
basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
start labelling them.

Given that the Mountain Rescue are usually loath to criticise those they
rescue

Quoted message said:

That's not been my observation.

No, it's my observation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic
elemental skill that you should have going into hills in the winter" is
a pretty damning indictment. A mobile phone is not a substitute for map
and compass or even a GPS.

Quoted message said:

Who mentioned a mobile phone? Not me: that's for sure.

You mentioned the article, the article mentioned the mobile phone ...

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:54:40 GMT, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

> Navigational mistakes happen, even to people trained in navigation who
> were paying attention to what they were doing. The only way to avoid
> them entirely is to stay in the house.

> I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
> that they lacked basic navigation skills. Skills quite a lot more
> sophisticated than that are required in those sorts of conditions. I'm
> basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
> start labelling them.

Given that the Mountain Rescue are usually loath to criticise those they
rescue

Quoted message said:

That's not been my observation.

No, it's my observation.

Yes, I realise that. I was pointing out that my experience has been
different i.e. I've not observed the MR to be loath to criticise those
they rescue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic
elemental skill that you should have going into hills in the winter" is
a pretty damning indictment. A mobile phone is not a substitute for map
and compass or even a GPS.

Quoted message said:

Who mentioned a mobile phone? Not me: that's for sure.

You mentioned the article, the article mentioned the mobile phone ...

Ah, right: what you wrote read as though you were refuting some
suggestion made by me that a mobile phone was a substitute for map and
compass or even a GPS. I see what you mean now.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Judith <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:55:59 +0000, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, so they presumably need a compass as back-up in case the batteries
fail in the GPS. But if they always take a GPS, how do they get the
skills needed to use a compass properly?

A GPS would be an excellent way of validating the accuracy of
traditional navigation, if only referred to at the end of the exercise.
;-)

I find that having an endpoint coincident with the space in which I
left the car is usually a good way of checking my navigation ability!

Judith

The most important waypoint in my GPS is always called CAR.
:-)
--
Gordon Harris

In reply to Daytona who advocated carrying tents..

Do you honestly carry a tent when going for a day-walk ?

In Yvon Choinard's magnificent book "Climbing Ice" he states "go
equipped to bivi and you will bivi".
And elsewhere "leave the '10 essentials' and other impedimenta behind".
And Chounard did know a thing or two about climbing - mind you, he's
doing rather more serious stuff than these guys.

Obviously, they cocked-up, but haven't we all at some time or other ?
I've certainly gone wrong navigating more than once, but always sorted
myself out before it got too serious (luck or skill ?).
I'm therefore reluctant to criticise others too harshly.

Hywel

On 27/11/05 13:24, in article
[email hidden], "Ken"

Quoted message said:

So we're going to get a gps unit and, certainly in winter it'll go in
the bag and it'll be used as others have suggested - when it seems
vital we're right, when traditional methods are too unreliable and to
have fun with at the end of the day comparing actual route to intended.

I must admit the thing that surprised me most about this story was that
nobody in this group was carrying a gps.

I very rarely use my gps and I don't always carry it. But I sure as hell
would have been carrying it in the Cairngorms, especially when the weather
forecast had been pretty consistent for so long.

--
Andy Howell, Birmingham, UK. To mail simply put back the dots ...

Must Be Over There ...
http://www.ecotrend.org.uk/trek

Gordon said:

Yes, but - they would have saved the MRT considerable time and effort,
and time could have been critical if they had been hypothermic.

Not nearly as much time and effort compared to if they'd read the
weather forecast though. If you shouldn't really be there then you
shouldn't really be there.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Andy Howell typed "I must admit the thing that surprised me most about
this story was that
nobody in this group was carrying a gps."

Yep!!! I'm amazed that some walkers(?) will spend many hundreds of
pounds, even thousands, on the latest, greatest gear, jacket, etc but
£90 on a GPS device that could save your life is ethically beyond
them?

David.

214Fells said:

Yep!!! I'm amazed that some walkers(?) will spend many hundreds of
pounds, even thousands, on the latest, greatest gear, jacket, etc but
£90 on a GPS device that could save your life is ethically beyond
them?

There are all sorts of things that can save your life that cost
considerably less than £90. So it really doesn't pay to start
criticising like this for equipment choices or you start off down a
*very* rocky road.

Listening to Tayside MRT folk talking about this incident at the DMFF on
Friday nobody seemed to be mentioning GPSs, but a general level of
Cluefulness seemed to be me more on folks' minds.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

214Fells said:

Yep!!! I'm amazed that some walkers(?) will spend many hundreds of
pounds, even thousands, on the latest, greatest gear, jacket, etc but
£90 on a GPS device that could save your life is ethically beyond
them?

There are all sorts of things that can save your life that cost
considerably less than £90. So it really doesn't pay to start
criticising like this for equipment choices or you start off down a
*very* rocky road.

Listening to Tayside MRT folk talking about this incident at the DMFF on
Friday nobody seemed to be mentioning GPSs, but a general level of
Cluefulness seemed to be me more on folks' minds.

Didn't answer the point....just added your own view....???

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid. That appears illogical and
leads down a very, very *rocky* road???

Perhaps walkers shouldn't be allowed on the hill without compass, map &
GPS?? Tongue-in-cheek????

David.

214Fells said:

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid. That appears illogical and
leads down a very, very *rocky* road???

A fool with a tool is still a fool. Knowledge and skills should always
come first.

Chris

Chris Gilbert said:

214Fells said:

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid. That appears illogical and
leads down a very, very *rocky* road???

A fool with a tool is still a fool.

Yes, but with GPS he's a fool who knows where he is.

214Fells said:

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid.

Whether or not it is a safety aid is beside the point. As I pointed
out, there's no shortage of possible safety aids you can take along with
you but that doesn't make it essential that you should have anything
that can be seen in such a way.

Quoted message said:

That appears illogical and
leads down a very, very *rocky* road???

The rocky road being that people are getting chastised for going out
with "just" stuff that is known to be perfectly adequate when used with
appropriate Cluefullness, and your line starts us off towards
contributory negligence claims against people that go out without the
kitchen sink.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Yes, but with GPS he's a fool who knows where he is.

So should MRTs be pleased if they get twice as many callouts but have to
spend half as much time looking?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

214Fells said:

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid.

Whether or not it is a safety aid is beside the point. As I pointed
out, there's no shortage of possible safety aids you can take along with
you but that doesn't make it essential that you should have anything
that can be seen in such a way.

Why are you in denial? 🙂

No-one has suggested that people should take a GPS instead of a map or
compass. No-one has suggested that it's any sort of substitute for
experience and common sense. Many people agree with you that the
blokes should not have gone out there if unable to navigate/take care
of themselves by conventional methods.

The simple fact remains, though, that once they were
stuck/lost/whatever and chose to ring the MR it would have saved the
MR a great deal of time, and involved less risk to the rescuers, if
they'd had a GR to go to rather than having to search a large area.

I don't understand why some people are unwilling to admit the obvious
in relation to GPSs. In the situation the blokes were in, a working
GPS would have been a great help to the rescuers. No other safety aid
in existance could have done the same job. End of story!

Quoted message said:

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but with GPS he's a fool who knows where he is.

So should MRTs be pleased if they get twice as many callouts but have to
spend half as much time looking?

So a fool who knows where he *is* is twice as likely to call out a MRT
than a fool who doesn't?

Explain.

Peewiglet said:

No-one has suggested that people should take a GPS instead of a map or
compass. No-one has suggested that it's any sort of substitute for
experience and common sense.

Directly said, no. Implied, even if by accident, I think they have.

Quoted message said:

The simple fact remains, though, that once they were
stuck/lost/whatever and chose to ring the MR it would have saved the
MR a great deal of time, and involved less risk to the rescuers, if
they'd had a GR to go to rather than having to search a large area.

Yet the MRTs are not making a point of saying this, despite it being
/their/ time and effort which might be spared.

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why some people are unwilling to admit the obvious
in relation to GPSs.

If the absolute bottom line were always maximising personal safety
then... well actually, if that is really the absolute bottom line you
wouldn't be out there to start with.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/