Basso: 'I have had no contact from any judge, investigator, the UCI'

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>,
triddletree ('[email protected]') wrote:

> I'm sure they will be. If there were top tennis players on the lists
> that are now at Wimbledon I'm certain it would have been made well
> known.

This particular scandal does include both specific, named football
players currently in the World Cup and specific, named tennis players
currently at Wimbledon. Only a quarter of the athletes implicated are
cyclists.

The difference between cycling and the other sports is that cycling
suspends people immediately on suspicion, without proof or any chance to
defend themselves.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

IMHO, there aren't enough committed Christians, but that's care
in the community for you. -- Ben Evans

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Paul - ***
('[email protected]') wrote:

> wafflycat came up with the following;:
>
>> My point was, that it is more than a cycling scandal. Yet that appears
>> to be largely ignored by the media. And yes, my powers of observation
>> had noticed that cycling has a big event on right now, but so does
>> tennis and football, yet their apparent cheats are not being named in
>> public.
>
> Ahh, the old "..well they do it, why can't we?.." excuse.
>
> Where, when and who are the football and tennis cheats you speak of?
> (Maradona springs to mind, but that was hardly not publicised was it?)
>
>> I don't 'blame' anyone for criticising cycling. I'm actually not so
>> sure that other sports do want their cheats named & shamed. Look at
>> the disgrace heaped upon cycling and loss of sponsors - I think that
>> other sports *might* wish to avoid loss of sponsors and bad press.
>
> I think cycling would also like to not have their cheats named and
> shamed,
> as in the past. Unfortunately they have, in this case, been found out
> publicly.
>
> If it's so rife, as you suggest, in other sports then where is your
> proof?
>
> It seems to me that cycling and Le Tour have done an exemplary thing by
> opening their doors and admitting there's a problem.

I think the anti-doping people think that they can get away with wrecking
cyclists' careers on innuendo and flimsy evidence, because cyclists
don't earn enough to hire serious legal muscle.

>> Of course I'm concerned about the different reactions between sports.
>> That's not condoning any cheating that goes on in cycling. My post is
>> appropriate to cycling as cycling is involved in the scandal. What is
>> wrong about being interested in why the cycling cheats are being named
>> and why the apparent cheats from say, football & tennis are not. This
>> is not 'attacking' other sports, it's simply a query as regards the
>> current scandal.
>
> Which apparent cheats from football and tennis are not being named
> then?

Allegedly, a certain London premiership club uses EPO routinely as part
of all their players' regime. Allegedly, several members of the French
team now in the World Cup final, including their goal scorers, are named
in Operacion Puerto. Allegedly, the same goes for a higher proportion of
the Spanish team. Allegedly, the same goes for about twenty top rank
tennis stars.

For the specific names, look on the website of the Spanish radio station
which appears to have reporters very close to the Operacion Puerto
detectives.

>> Probably not. But wondering why other sports are being treated
>> differently does not mean I condone cheating by cyclists.
>
> Other sports don't appear to be treated differently, it just hapopens
> that Le Tour is the biggest sporting spectacle and cheats were found
> just as it started.

The cheats were 'found', as you say, in May, before the start of either
the World Cup Finals or Wimbledon.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

 

[triddletree]

wafflycat wrote:
>
> "triddletree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> wafflycat wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> For me, the bottom line is if they cheat - they should be exposed and
>>> out, whoever they are. But...
>>
>>
>> Look, its that word "but" again ;-)
>>
>> tt
>
>
> Here's another couple...
> *plonk* moron

Silly woman )

tt

 

[triddletree]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>,
> triddletree ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>
>>I'm sure they will be. If there were top tennis players on the lists
>>that are now at Wimbledon I'm certain it would have been made well
>>known.
>
>
> This particular scandal does include both specific, named football
> players currently in the World Cup and specific, named tennis players
> currently at Wimbledon. Only a quarter of the athletes implicated are
> cyclists.
>
> The difference between cycling and the other sports is that cycling
> suspends people immediately on suspicion, without proof or any chance to
> defend themselves.

AIUI the cyclists involved were members of teams which had signed up to
the Tour's ethical charter, so knew that if they were linked in any way
to an investigation they risked repercussions.
Isn't it more a case that the teams have withdrawn the riders pending
investigation rather than suspending them as such?
Isn't that a job for the national Federations to now consider?

What I find disappointing about the attempts to clean up the sport, is
that the focus seems more on the riders than the team managements. I do
like the comment by Vinokourov about Saiz tho' - suggesting he
disappear, but may find a small bike shop to work in.

tt

 

[Paul - xxx]

Simon Brooke came up with the following;:
> in message <[email protected]>, Paul - ***
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> wafflycat came up with the following;:
>>
>>> My point was, that it is more than a cycling scandal. Yet that appears
>>> to be largely ignored by the media. And yes, my powers of observation
>>> had noticed that cycling has a big event on right now, but so does
>>> tennis and football, yet their apparent cheats are not being named in
>>> public.
>>
>> Ahh, the old "..well they do it, why can't we?.." excuse.
>>
>> Where, when and who are the football and tennis cheats you speak of?
>> (Maradona springs to mind, but that was hardly not publicised was it?)
>>
>>> I don't 'blame' anyone for criticising cycling. I'm actually not so
>>> sure that other sports do want their cheats named & shamed. Look at
>>> the disgrace heaped upon cycling and loss of sponsors - I think that
>>> other sports *might* wish to avoid loss of sponsors and bad press.
>>
>> I think cycling would also like to not have their cheats named and
>> shamed,
>> as in the past. Unfortunately they have, in this case, been found out
>> publicly.
>>
>> If it's so rife, as you suggest, in other sports then where is your
>> proof?
>>
>> It seems to me that cycling and Le Tour have done an exemplary thing by
>> opening their doors and admitting there's a problem.
>
> I think the anti-doping people think that they can get away with wrecking
> cyclists' careers on innuendo and flimsy evidence, because cyclists
> don't earn enough to hire serious legal muscle.

Very likely.

>>> Of course I'm concerned about the different reactions between sports.
>>> That's not condoning any cheating that goes on in cycling. My post is
>>> appropriate to cycling as cycling is involved in the scandal. What is
>>> wrong about being interested in why the cycling cheats are being named
>>> and why the apparent cheats from say, football & tennis are not. This
>>> is not 'attacking' other sports, it's simply a query as regards the
>>> current scandal.
>>
>> Which apparent cheats from football and tennis are not being named
>> then?
>
> Allegedly, a certain London premiership club uses EPO routinely as part
> of all their players' regime. Allegedly, several members of the French
> team now in the World Cup final, including their goal scorers, are named
> in Operacion Puerto. Allegedly, the same goes for a higher proportion of
> the Spanish team. Allegedly, the same goes for about twenty top rank
> tennis stars.

I don't know. TBH I haven't followed or gone into any depth whatsoever
about the cases, just gone by the headlines and what's currently making the
news. If all the 'allegedlys' are true then they ought also to be named and
shamed and, indeed, not allowed to play/compete within their sport in the
same manner that the cyclists have been.


Or should they? Should they be presumed innocent until proved guilty and
allowed to carry on? I guess that's the point where the cyclists are being
badly done to and, as has been pointed out to me, deprived of their
livelihood whilst also getting their good names dragged through the mud when
they _might not_ have done anything wrong.

> For the specific names, look on the website of the Spanish radio station
> which appears to have reporters very close to the Operacion Puerto
> detectives.

Not that bothered tbhy ...

>>> Probably not. But wondering why other sports are being treated
>>> differently does not mean I condone cheating by cyclists.
>>
>> Other sports don't appear to be treated differently, it just hapopens
>> that Le Tour is the biggest sporting spectacle and cheats were found
>> just as it started.
>
> The cheats were 'found', as you say, in May, before the start of either
> the World Cup Finals or Wimbledon.

As I say, I'm only going by the recent headlines. I haven't followed the
cases closely at all.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

 

[David Martin]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>,
> triddletree ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > I'm sure they will be. If there were top tennis players on the lists
> > that are now at Wimbledon I'm certain it would have been made well
> > known.
>
> This particular scandal does include both specific, named football
> players currently in the World Cup and specific, named tennis players
> currently at Wimbledon. Only a quarter of the athletes implicated are
> cyclists.
>
> The difference between cycling and the other sports is that cycling
> suspends people immediately on suspicion, without proof or any chance to
> defend themselves.

The difference is that cycling has suspended participants immediately,
whilst complete investigations are ongoing (as per the code of ethics)
whereas football and tennis have decided to nto cause any trouble at
their showpiece tournaments and said, send us the information next week
and we'll then consider it.. (ie after the WC and Wimbledon).
Can you imagine the furore if a significant portion of the field at
Wimbledon were withdrawn midway through the competition?
Or teams banned from the world cup for doping?

...d

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>,
triddletree ('[email protected]') wrote:

> wafflycat wrote:
>
>> For me, the bottom line is if they cheat - they should be exposed and
>> out, whoever they are. But...
>
> Look, its that word "but" again ;-)

But if they didn't cheat?

If you wanted to mount a betting scam, what better way than to get all
the top five favourites excluded from a major sporting event by
manufacturing some flimsy evidence and then waving it about until the
police got interested?

I'm not saying this /is/ a betting scam (although it easily could be).
I'm not saying the 35 cyclists aren't guilty. I don't know. There
isn't - yet - even nearly enough evidence.

But - if Ullrich didn't cheat, this was probably his last ever chance at
a second Tour victory. How can you give that back to him? If Basso
didn't cheat, this was his chance to be the first man ever to win the
Giro and the Tour in the same year. How can you give that back to him?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

 

[Arthur Clune]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> If Basso
> didn't cheat, this was his chance to be the first man ever to win the
> Giro and the Tour in the same year. How can you give that back to him?

That's been done before, most recently by Marco Pantani (*)

Arthur

(*) um, yeah, not an ideal precedent

--
Arthur Clune

 

[Simon Bennett]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> this was his chance to be the first man ever to win the
> Giro and the Tour in the same year.

Ahem. Point of fact, Giro-Tour 'double' winners:

Fausto Coppi: 1949, 52
Jacques Anquetil: 1964
Eddy Merckx: 1970, 72, 74 (!)
Bernard Hinault: 1982, 85
Stephen Roche: 1987
Miguel Indurain: 1992, 93
Marco Pantani: 1998

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Simon Bennett
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> this was his chance to be the first man ever to win the
>> Giro and the Tour in the same year.
>
> Ahem. Point of fact, Giro-Tour 'double' winners:
>
> Fausto Coppi: 1949, 52
> Jacques Anquetil: 1964
> Eddy Merckx: 1970, 72, 74 (!)
> Bernard Hinault: 1982, 85
> Stephen Roche: 1987
> Miguel Indurain: 1992, 93
> Marco Pantani: 1998

Oops. Yup. Heat of the moment, and all that.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.

 

[Jan]

Simon Brooke came up with the following;:

> Allegedly, a certain London premiership club uses EPO routinely as
> part of all their players' regime. Allegedly, several members of the
> French team now in the World Cup final, including their goal scorers,
> are named in Operacion Puerto. Allegedly, the same goes for a higher
> proportion of the Spanish team. Allegedly, the same goes for about
> twenty top rank tennis stars.
>
> For the specific names, look on the website of the Spanish radio
> station which appears to have reporters very close to the Operacion
> Puerto detectives.


Simon, Can you provide a link to the radio staion please?

Thanks
Jan

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Jan ('[email protected]')
wrote:

> Simon Brooke came up with the following;:
>
>> Allegedly, a certain London premiership club uses EPO routinely as
>> part of all their players' regime. Allegedly, several members of the
>> French team now in the World Cup final, including their goal scorers,
>> are named in Operacion Puerto. Allegedly, the same goes for a higher
>> proportion of the Spanish team. Allegedly, the same goes for about
>> twenty top rank tennis stars.
>>
>> For the specific names, look on the website of the Spanish radio
>> station which appears to have reporters very close to the Operacion
>> Puerto detectives.
>
> Simon, Can you provide a link to the radio staion please?

Right. Before doing that I should say that Operacion Puerto has now
apparently officially said that there were no footballers or tennis
players on their list; so it seems that the rumours I was repeating were
false. However, the radio station Cadena SER has apparently reported a
great deal of detail on Operacion Puerto that other news services
haven't had, and most of it seems to have been accurate.

http://www.cadenaser.com/

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Simon
Brooke ('[email protected]') wrote:

> in message <[email protected]>, Jan
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> Simon Brooke came up with the following;:
>>
>>> Allegedly, a certain London premiership club uses EPO routinely as
>>> part of all their players' regime. Allegedly, several members of the
>>> French team now in the World Cup final, including their goal scorers,
>>> are named in Operacion Puerto. Allegedly, the same goes for a higher
>>> proportion of the Spanish team. Allegedly, the same goes for about
>>> twenty top rank tennis stars.
>>>
>>> For the specific names, look on the website of the Spanish radio
>>> station which appears to have reporters very close to the Operacion
>>> Puerto detectives.
>>
>> Simon, Can you provide a link to the radio staion please?
>
> Right. Before doing that I should say that Operacion Puerto has now
> apparently officially said that there were no footballers or tennis
> players on their list; so it seems that the rumours I was repeating
> were false. However, the radio station Cadena SER has apparently
> reported a great deal of detail on Operacion Puerto that other news
> services haven't had, and most of it seems to have been accurate.
>
> http://www.cadenaser.com/

And now Cadena SER is carrying an interview with Doctor Fuentes himself
in which he claims:

"Names have appeared of people that I don't even know and there are
others that haven't come out and I've no idea why but my professional
oath forbids me from revealing their names.

"Treatment only for cyclists? I'm also indignant about that. I've
worked with other sports, like athletics, tennis and football. There
are a lot of names that haven't come out, there has been only
selective leaks. I don't know why.

"I've worked with Spanish football teams from the first and second
divisions that have improved their performance. If I haven't carried
out the treatment myself I have recommended it to them."

See:
http://www.cadenaser.com/articulo/d.../danos/EPO/csrcsrpor/20060705csrcsrdep_4/Tes/
(translate with Babelfish)
http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto920170.shtml

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
There's nae Gods, an there's precious few heroes
but there's plenty on the dole in th Land o th Leal;
And it's time now, tae sweep the future clear o
th lies o a past that we know wis never real.