Basso: 'I have had no contact from any judge, investigator, the UCI'



S

Simon Brooke

Guest
Quote from:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10193.0.html

"Riis still believes me. I told him I have nothing to do with the Fuentes
story, but he said I was suspended until all this business is over. Now
my lawyers will be doing the talking for me," Basso said. "I have had no
contact from any judge, any investigator, no one from the UCI. I left
because of the Ethics Code, there was no other option, but I have
nothing to hide."

What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge, any
investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
Tour again.

And the people making the accusations don't even have the guts to pick up
the phone and ask to hear the accused's side of the story. It makes you
sick. I'm not asking for justice here - in a case like this 'justice'
may be too abstract a concept. But, for heaven's sake, just basic human
decency.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605
 
T

Tuschinski

Guest
Simon > What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge,
any
> investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
> Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
> away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
> Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
> Tour again.
>


It's a panicked knee-jerk festival in wich Directors dump their riders
before god forbid they themselves come under scrutiny. If it even
becomes a case: Expect Riis and CSC cut Basso loose. Same goes for
T-Mobile; expect nothing for him or Sevilla.

The teams, the directors, the doctors, they will all lie low and the
UCI will do nothing. Here's hoping that the police can do something
about them.
 
D

David Goldberg

Guest
Tuschinski wrote:

> Simon > What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge,
> any
> > investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
> > Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
> > away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
> > Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
> > Tour again.
> >

>
> It's a panicked knee-jerk festival


The Tour directors and team leaders are trying to save cycling from all of
these doping rumors.

What is more important: Ullrich's and Basso's paycheck, or the Tour itself?

--
"If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we want
to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
~President George W. Bush
 
J

Jim Ley

Guest
On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:14:20 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And the people making the accusations don't even have the guts to pick up
>the phone and ask to hear the accused's side of the story. It makes you
>sick. I'm not asking for justice here - in a case like this 'justice'
>may be too abstract a concept. But, for heaven's sake, just basic human
>decency.


If the sport had shown the remotest decency to fairness and made some
effort themselves in the past to remove the cheats from the sport then
it wouldn't be in the mess it is now, it's riven with cheats, the
organisers of tours, the teams, and the fellow riders have done
nothing to stop it, if they had, then we could have some sympathy, but
no, even the ones who don't turn to the drugs have been happy in teams
that do.

Jim.
 
Listen to the riders. Basso DIDN'T say:

"I absolutely did not cheat; nor have I ever cheated."

He said: "No one ever called me to accuse me."

They've got very strong, incontestable evidence. They've got blood
bags labeled "Jan" and with the name of Basso's dog. (clever coding).

That blood has lymphocytes. Those lymphocytes have DNA.

The DNA will tell the story. Almost certainly, the DNA has already
told the story.

Which is why there is no outraged denials on the part of the suspended
riders.

- Larry Weisenthal
 
B

Bill C

Guest
David Goldberg wrote:
> Tuschinski wrote:
>
> > Simon > What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge,
> > any
> > > investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
> > > Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
> > > away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
> > > Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
> > > Tour again.
> > >

> >
> > It's a panicked knee-jerk festival

>
> The Tour directors and team leaders are trying to save cycling from all of
> these doping rumors.
>
> What is more important: Ullrich's and Basso's paycheck, or the Tour itself?
>
> --
> "If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we want
> to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
> ~President George W. Bush


That's the rational that created Guantanamo and the US internment camps
65 years ago.
Nice going.
Bill C
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <[email protected]>,
[email protected] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Listen to the riders. Basso DIDN'T say:
>
> "I absolutely did not cheat; nor have I ever cheated."
>
> He said: "No one ever called me to accuse me."


What part of 'I have nothing to do with the Fuentes story' do you not
understand? It seems to me he's saying very clearly that the accusation
is false. Furthermore, he did /not/ say "No one ever called me to accuse
me" - at least, not in the interview I cited. If you know where he did,
please link to it for us. He said, as I quoted, 'I have had no contact
from any judge, any investigator'.

> They've got very strong, incontestable evidence. They've got blood
> bags labeled "Jan" and with the name of Basso's dog. (clever coding).
>
> That blood has lymphocytes. Those lymphocytes have DNA.
>
> The DNA will tell the story. Almost certainly, the DNA has already
> told the story.


Yup. Almost certainly it has. If it was clear evidence, would we not know
about it by now? What motivation would anyone have for withholding
information on such clear evidence? The silence implies that it does not
link anyone important with the blood.

> Which is why there is no outraged denials on the part of the suspended
> riders.


I have just quoted an denial, above. Dignified people do not show outrage
in public.

Note that I'm not saying Basso or Ullrich or Mancebo or whoever else
didn't dope. All I'm saying is that there hasn't been evidence yet -
literally - to hang a dog on.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"
 
F

Frank Drackman

Guest
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> David Goldberg wrote:
>> Tuschinski wrote:
>>
>> > Simon > What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge,
>> > any
>> > > investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
>> > > Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally
>> > > taken
>> > > away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
>> > > Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win
>> > > the
>> > > Tour again.
>> > >
>> >
>> > It's a panicked knee-jerk festival

>>
>> The Tour directors and team leaders are trying to save cycling from all
>> of
>> these doping rumors.
>>
>> What is more important: Ullrich's and Basso's paycheck, or the Tour
>> itself?
>>
>> --
>> "If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we
>> want
>> to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
>> ~President George W. Bush

>
> That's the rational that created Guantanamo and the US internment camps
> 65 years ago.
> Nice going.
>


Nope, the riders knew the rules when they signed a Pro Tour contract. If
they were named in a legitimate doping investigation they couldn't ride. If
they didn't like the clause they have declined to sign and sought employment
elsewhere.
 
B

Bill C

Guest
Frank Drackman wrote:
> Nope, the riders knew the rules when they signed a Pro Tour contract. If
> they were named in a legitimate doping investigation they couldn't ride. If
> they didn't like the clause they have declined to sign and sought employment
> elsewhere.


What's the option to the monopoly? You like Robber Barons? This is a
multinational monopoly that controls a whole hell of a lot more market
percentage than Microsoft. Microsoft is being crucified in Euro courts,
but not a word is being said about the current cycling system.
You support Gates right to a monopoly right?
Bill C
 
F

Frank Drackman

Guest
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Frank Drackman wrote:
>> Nope, the riders knew the rules when they signed a Pro Tour contract. If
>> they were named in a legitimate doping investigation they couldn't ride.
>> If
>> they didn't like the clause they have declined to sign and sought
>> employment
>> elsewhere.

>
> What's the option to the monopoly? You like Robber Barons? This is a
> multinational monopoly that controls a whole hell of a lot more market
> percentage than Microsoft. Microsoft is being crucified in Euro courts,
> but not a word is being said about the current cycling system.
> You support Gates right to a monopoly right?
> Bill C
>


Are you trying to say that the only employment options in Europe are
professional bike racing? Why not get a different job and race for fun?
Another option is to get all of the riders together to form a strong union.
What did the riders think was going to happen when the Pro Tour and race
promoters started putting these clauses together?
 
C

Chris

Guest
So, even if the bags of blood are theirs, that doesn't mean they have
transfused any of it back into their bodies, at best the argument might be
it was contemplated, so no crime committed.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Listen to the riders. Basso DIDN'T say:
>
> "I absolutely did not cheat; nor have I ever cheated."
>
> He said: "No one ever called me to accuse me."
>
> They've got very strong, incontestable evidence. They've got blood
> bags labeled "Jan" and with the name of Basso's dog. (clever coding).
>
> That blood has lymphocytes. Those lymphocytes have DNA.
>
> The DNA will tell the story. Almost certainly, the DNA has already
> told the story.
>
> Which is why there is no outraged denials on the part of the suspended
> riders.
>
> - Larry Weisenthal
>
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> That's the rational that created Guantanamo and the US internment camps
> 65 years ago.


When motorcycle helmet laws came up I was working in a motorcycle shop and
was the safety director for the American Federation of Motorcyclists. I knew
something about helmets and had spoken with Dr. Shively, essentially the
inventor of the modern helmet and the director of the Snell Memorial
Foundation at the time.

We wrote a petition against mandatory helmet laws and gathered signatures
from some 8,000 motorcyclists and took it to a meeting of the Transportation
Committee in Sacramento. Totally disconnected from us several thousands
other motorcyclists from all over the state converged on this meeting all
with the same idea in mind. In all we various groups presented petitions
with some 20,000+ signatures on them against mandatory helmet laws.

They had to reschedule the meeting and held it in the largest committee
meeting room they had in Sacramento and still there was standing room only.

Of this group there were 2 - TWO - people that testified in favor of
mandatory helmet laws - one was a lady whose son had ridden into a building
at high speed on his motorcycle and she somehow believed that if he were
wearing a helmet he would be alive and well. The other was a representative
for the California Highway Patrol. Several of use raised our hands to
question this officer, they chose someone else and he asked exactly the same
question I was going to ask - If the CHP was for safety helmets why were all
of their motorcycle officers equiped with CORK helmets that couldn't pass
the Snell standard? The officer changed the subject without answering and
the committee chair dismissed him in a hurry.

Dr. Shively also was called to the stand and suggested that we should have a
mandatory helmet law. On questioning HE ADMITTED that it would make no
statistically relevent contribution to the fatality rolls.

We had a half dozen scientists and motorcycle company safety experts come to
the stand and explain how motorcycle helmets don't change the fatality or
serious injury index by any measureable amount. That helmets simply aren't
enough of a change to make them worthwhile.

The proposition was tabled and the meeting let out. Thousands of
motorcyclists in suits and ties, industry leaders, motorcycle shop owners,
editors of magazines and about a dozen greasy looking "outlaw" types (who in
reality were as outlaw as the Fonze) were walking out.

A TV crew and a reporter were shoving and pushing all of these neatly
dressed people out of the way to get to these couple of greasers. They
"interview" the stupidest looking one of that group and that night it was
all over TV with the story that "A group of Hell's Angels invaded a meeting
of the Transportation Committee today to demand that helmets not be
considered!" Essentially that same story was on all of the channels and on
the front page of every major newspaper in California.

The Transportation Committee held a secret meeting a couple of months later
and recommended a mandatory helmet law which passed almost unopposed.

Almost overnight the motorcycle business was destroyed. When was the last
time you saw a Honda 90 or a Yamaha 80? When was the last time you met the
nicest people on a Honda? 80% of the motorcycle shops in the state went out
of business.

The PERCENTAGE OF DEAD MOTORCYCLISTS to riders DIDN'T CHANGE.

Everyone in this state was manipulated by a lying media intent on running
the country the way they saw fit.

Now you're being led around by the nose yourself and you don't even know it.

I suspect you know absolutely nothing about Guantanamo and even less about
the Japanese internment camps.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...9420/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-5934667-8149617?ie=UTF8

What is amazing is that Franklin Roosevelt was the archetypal Liberal and
yet he is presented as being evil beyond evil by people who haven't a single
idea what he did and why.

It isn't enough that you feel disgust for the rush to judgement with no
information LET ALONE PROOF of anything - you have to do exactly the same
thing yourself.

Tell us Bill - how many tens of thousands of people in the State Department,
in the CIA or the NSA worked on gathering information for decades. How many
tens of thousands of reports, thousands of sumations and how many hundreds
of experts worked on this subject for countless administrations?

But BILL C. has watched Frontline and knows ALL there is to know about it.
 
T

Tuschinski

Guest
Chris wrote:
> So, even if the bags of blood are theirs, that doesn't mean they have
> transfused any of it back into their bodies, at best the argument might be
> it was contemplated, so no crime committed.
>
>


It's exactly what I am thinking... even if they link the bags, they
might need to link reinfusement. I'm not a legal expert to see how far
you can contend on those grounds (they are thin for sure).
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <[email protected]>, Frank Drackman
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Nope, the riders knew the rules when they signed a Pro Tour contract.
> If
> they were named in a legitimate doping investigation they couldn't
> ride. If they didn't like the clause they have declined to sign and
> sought employment elsewhere.


I acknowledge that's the rule, but this rule does make it very easy to
manipulate cycling, if, as I've suggested before, you want to set up a
cycling fraud. If you can bet against all the favourites for an event,
and then ensure that none of the favourites can start, you /will/ clean
up. All the favourites /have/ been prevented from starting, on evidence
which as I understand it is all still circumstantial.

I know I'm grasping at straws her, but please, guys, let me grasp.

No, I'm not naive enough to believe that they're all clean really. Au
contraire, I think we've caught just one doping clinic, and we know of
the existence of at least one other (and there are probably more). It
isn't wrong that (some of) my heros get kicked out of the tour: what's
wrong that some people get kicked out, while others who are equally
tainted are allowed to ride.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
; www-html. -- George Lund
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> Quote from:
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10193.0.html
>
> "Riis still believes me. I told him I have nothing to do with the Fuentes
> story, but he said I was suspended until all this business is over. Now
> my lawyers will be doing the talking for me," Basso said. "I have had no
> contact from any judge, any investigator, no one from the UCI. I left
> because of the Ethics Code, there was no other option, but I have
> nothing to hide."
>
> What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge, any
> investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
> Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
> away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
> Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
> Tour again.
>
> And the people making the accusations don't even have the guts to pick up
> the phone and ask to hear the accused's side of the story. It makes you
> sick. I'm not asking for justice here - in a case like this 'justice'
> may be too abstract a concept. But, for heaven's sake, just basic human
> decency.
>
> --
> [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
> ;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
> ;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605



What I find strange about this affair, is that the documents were only
delivered on Friday, just in time to really screw everthing up.
Couldn't they have been ready a week ago ?

Alex
 
W

wafflycat

Guest
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Quote from:
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10193.0.html
>
> "Riis still believes me. I told him I have nothing to do with the Fuentes
> story, but he said I was suspended until all this business is over. Now
> my lawyers will be doing the talking for me," Basso said. "I have had no
> contact from any judge, any investigator, no one from the UCI. I left
> because of the Ethics Code, there was no other option, but I have
> nothing to hide."
>
> What gets me is the line 'I have had no contact from any judge, any
> investigator, no one from the UCI'. These people - Basso, Ullrich,
> Mancebo and all the others - are having their livelihood literally taken
> away from them. Their reputations are being tarnished for ever. For
> Ullrich in particular this is possibly his last real chance to win the
> Tour again.
>
> And the people making the accusations don't even have the guts to pick up
> the phone and ask to hear the accused's side of the story. It makes you
> sick. I'm not asking for justice here - in a case like this 'justice'
> may be too abstract a concept. But, for heaven's sake, just basic human
> decency.



One of the things that get sme about this latest *cycling* scandal... and
this is most certianly *not* a defence of any lying, cheating b*st*rds out
there.

Is this actually a *cycling* scandal? Originally it was put out that some
200'ish sports' people were implicated in this scandal, of which about 50
were cyclists...

....why then is this being painted in the media as purely a *cycling*
scandal?

.... why is no journalist, as far as I can find in the media looking to find
out who the non-cycling cheats are?

.... why there appears to be no overt reaction from the sporting bodies that
are non-cycling about rooting out the cheats?

If someone cheats, he or she deserves to be banned... but this isn't *just*
about cycling... so why are the other sports appearing to be getting away
with it?

Cheers, helen s
 
S

Sandy

Guest
wafflycat a écrit :
>
>
> One of the things that get sme about this latest *cycling* scandal...
> and this is most certianly *not* a defence of any lying, cheating
> b*st*rds out there.
>
> Is this actually a *cycling* scandal? Originally it was put out that
> some 200'ish sports' people were implicated in this scandal, of which
> about 50 were cyclists...
>
> ....why then is this being painted in the media as purely a *cycling*
> scandal?


Or rather, a MEDICAL scandal. Perhaps PHARMACEUTICAL scandal.
And I am going to watch, anyway. I watched the World Cup, after all.

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
-
"Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."
- Edward O. Wilson
 
H

h squared

Guest
Sandy wrote:

> And I am going to watch, anyway. I watched the World Cup, after all.
>


i tried to watch but don't think i'll continue. watching makes me
depressed, so what's the point of that?

heather
 
S

Sandy

Guest
h squared a écrit :
> Sandy wrote:
>
>> And I am going to watch, anyway. I watched the World Cup, after all.
>>

>
> i tried to watch but don't think i'll continue. watching makes me
> depressed, so what's the point of that?
>
> heather
>

I guess US viewers have had little interest since (not) qualifying.
Here, we were in the streets until 3AM.

--

Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
 
H

h squared

Guest
Sandy wrote:

> h squared a écrit :
>
>> Sandy wrote:
>>
>>> And I am going to watch, anyway. I watched the World Cup, after all.
>>>

>>
>> i tried to watch but don't think i'll continue. watching makes me
>> depressed, so what's the point of that?
>>
>> heather
>>

> I guess US viewers have had little interest since (not) qualifying.
> Here, we were in the streets until 3AM.
>


no, i meant watching the tour makes me depressed, not the world cup :)

my bf watches the world cup- the last time it came around i found him up
at 3am in front of the tv with a big thermos of coffee, just so he could
watch it live. (normally he struggles to get up at 6am to go to work, lol)

h
 

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