Basso splitts with csc

But what people don't focus on is that Basso and JU have not received the benefit of due process in an orderly examination of the claims against them. They, like every other rider, are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

JohnO said:

Who knows? Walsh and Ballestier might decide that a book on Basso would be a profitable undertaking.

Good point. They could use a new topic that mattered - an active rider.

Bro Deal said:

The fact that Basso is publicly entertaining the idea of a tier two team means that he has slammed smack dab into the reality that the ProTour teams are afraid to hire him. If he goes to Barloworld he will not race the Tour. There is no way the ASO will invite them with Basso on board.

Any ProTour team that signs him is taking a huge risk. Details will pour out of the Fuentes trial next year; and as soon as Fuentes is acquitted or gets his slap on the wrist, he will start talking. Fallout from the OP will continue through the 2008 season.

Agree, but doesn't Puerto seem like it's dragging on and on without many facts - just lots of speculation. I know how government agencies work but decisions need to be made so that the riders either get tried or not.

musette said:

But what people don't focus on is that Basso and JU have not received the benefit of due process in an orderly examination of the claims against them. They, like every other rider, are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

In real live, sometimes some innocent people are arrested during investigation, and they are freed after a full investigation or after a trial. Isn't it similar?
This process is not perfect, but societies don't fund better answer to this problem.

Basso sadly put himself into the position of having to publicly announce he was entertaiing non-Protour teams.

When he heard CSC didn't want him anymore, he presumably wanted to still announce that others wanted him, if only to keep his pride. That was his mistake. After he announced the names of teams he had been discussing this with, pressure was put on the Protour teams that were seriously considering him. That reduced the likelihood of his getting an offer (even one that was capable of termination in the event he were disciplined or more were to come out on him).

Then, he got scared. He was worried even his backup team (Baroloworld) would think that he was more interested in the ProTour team Discovery (which is reality, obviously). He was worried his backup team would hire somebody else, and no longer be able to be his backup team. So he had to assure them, and "string them along", by giving them hope they were still in the running. That's why he publicly announced he was considering non-ProTour teams.

But obviously he wants Discovery. And that means he may have to make some concessions on salary, or at least rely more on bonus or contingent provisions for increase in salary in the event good things (e.g., no discipline, winning GT) happen to him. This was used by USPS with LA. They bought an insurance policy to cover his bonus in the event he won consecutive TdFs, and that is the origin of his suit with the insurer (in which the Andreus testified).

Poor management of this. But then, if your main advisor is Lombardi, what can one expect?

Bro Deal said:

The fact that Basso is publicly entertaining the idea of a tier two team means that he has slammed smack dab into the reality that the ProTour teams are afraid to hire him. If he goes to Barloworld he will not race the Tour. There is no way the ASO will invite them with Basso on board.

Any ProTour team that signs him is taking a huge risk. Details will pour out of the Fuentes trial next year; and as soon as Fuentes is acquitted or gets his slap on the wrist, he will start talking. Fallout from the OP will continue through the 2008 season.

[font=Times New Roman]I think your predictions will almost certainly come true. Fuentes had over 150 bags of blood in his possession, and there is enough circumstantial linkage to cycling to infer a very extensive doping program involving a large number of professional cyclists. It’s inconceivable to me that such evidence could come to light, and not create massive fallout within the ranks cycling as the wheels of the judicial system grind along and the facts of this case unfold. This is too big to believe that everything will somehow be swept under the rug, and all the guilty parties will quietly resume their places in the cycling world without incident. In a way, the DNA content in those blood bags is like a videotape of crime scene – attorneys can drag out this process, appeal to legal technicalities, refuse to cooperate, etc., but sooner or later, common sense and public outrage will prevail and the images on the tape will be viewed, and we’ll know with a high degree of confidence who the guilty parties are. Given the sheer magnitude of these blood bags, there will likely be many guilty parties.[/font]

S0 much evidence (supposedly) but so little (if any) made public. No reason for such a delay and I don't buy the administrative rationale.

To date, other than speculation, innuendo, and baseless rumours, we haven't seen any concrete evidence. If it exists, why hasn't the UCI made it public.

Sorry, but SMS messages with codenames of people's dogs, etc., don't cut it.

I'd like to see proof of doping laid out on the table before I take anything the UCI says seriously.

If I were Basso or Jan and I still hadn't seen anything concrete in terms of evidence, I'd seriously explore legal avenues to get back at the UCI.

I wouldn't be surprised if we outright war between the riders and the UCI next year.

That's why, if I were Bruyneel, I would take a risk and sign Basso up right now, but build in strong language in the contract to allow DC to terminate Basso if, among other things, (1) he were proven to have doped, (2) he is prevented from participating in a Grand tour, (3) bad news is included on Basso in publicly released, formally translated documents provided by the Spanish Puerto authorities (beyond the phone call involving Fuentes), (4) Basso is not licensed to race, OR (5) the UCI takes certain action against Basso that reasonably could be expected to prevent Basso from racing for more than 75% of the year or for more than 2/3 of the Grand tours in a year.

UCI can continue to investigate Basso, and effectively preclude him from racing, but they probably wouldn't do that through the TdF. By then, Basso and whatever team he is on would have a strong argument that the investigation, if it has not borne fruit by then, should be halted. Bruyneel has other people who can ride the Giro as leader -- Popo or Leipheimer. He can wait until July for Basso to be cleared fully.

Bruyneel's sell-line to the rest of the cycling community will be that he has put in these contractual provisions, and intends to enforce them as necessary against Basso.

Basso is worth taking the risk on. Even though GTs have split from ProTour, the GTs are unlikely to exclude such a prominent team in the peloton as DC. That's why Basso is further restricted. He needs now not only a team with the $$$ to recruit him, and a team that will have good domestique support for him, but he needs that team to have the muscle in the peloton and/or history to know that the team will be included in any GT regardless of whether they have hired Basso. DC is such a team.

So, I think Bruyneel should go and sign up Basso, but put in strong contractual provisions to protect DC. Basso should know that is his best bet, and, if he is not cleared, going to Baroloworld won't get him in the TdF anyway.

If Bruyneel offers even that type of contract, Basso should take it. He is not in a particularly good position right now. THE FUTURE WILL DEMONSTRATE HOW WONDERFUL BRUYNEEL'S UPCOMING LANDING OF BASSO WILL BE. BASSO WILL PROBABLY WIN 07 TOUR IN DC COLORS. Basso will be a multiple TdF winner (at least two, although not necessarily consecutive).

musette said:

Basso will be a multiple TdF winner (at least two, although not necessarily consecutive).

You seem to have an incredible ability to see the future.

Strange then that you can't see the past: go and watch a tape of the '06 Tour and see what great support DSC would provide for Basso. Apart from one stage win that was paid for, where were they?

If your prediction comes true and Basso does join DSC, is allowed to ride in the Tour and subsequently wins it, then the court of public opinion will be very much that he is still doping and that DSC are involved and thus providing further fuel to the Lance=Dope belief. How is that good publicity?

(And how are they going to compete with the riders/drugs/$$$ of Astana?)

patch70 said:

You seem to have an incredible ability to see the future.

If your prediction comes true and Basso does join DSC, is allowed to ride in the Tour and subsequently wins it, then the court of public opinion will be very much that he is still doping and that DSC are involved and thus providing further fuel to the Lance=Dope belief. How is that good publicity?

And who made you the spokesman for the court of public opinion? Not everyone has a "hate Lance" mindset that assumes things that have never been proven.

At this point no one really cares if LA doped or not. Basso going to Discovery , allowing that he will even be able to compete without sanctions against him, wouod be a very wise move.

Bruyneel has experience in winning 7 TDF's. Is there even a DS right now with any victories at all? I'm not sure.

The team Discovery has now does not have much to do with the TDF2006. But what a farce that was anyway.

The team aspect of cycling is way overrated anyway.. There is only a few riders capable of winning a TDF out of all the riders that compete in a given year. A average rider with a great team cannot comopete with a great rider with a average team. The legs still matter when you are in the mountains and on the TT course. And that is what has won the majority of TDF's in recent years.

wolfix said:

And who made you the spokesman for the court of public opinion? Not everyone has a "hate Lance" mindset that assumes things that have never been proven.

.

Calm down.

wolfix said:

At this point no one really cares if LA doped or not. Basso going to Discovery , allowing that he will even be able to compete without sanctions against him, wouod be a very wise move.

Bruyneel has experience in winning 7 TDF's. Is there even a DS right now with any victories at all? I'm not sure.

Where Basso may end up, is conjecture for now.

And interms of GT wins, the most successful current manager in terms of GT wins is not Johan Bruyneel.

It's Jose Maria Echevarria.

wolfix said:

And who made you the spokesman for the court of public opinion? Not everyone has a "hate Lance" mindset that assumes things that have never been proven.

I never claimed to be any spokesperson but I think my prior opinion is a pretty safe bet. I certainly don't hate Lance. I have never met him. I can't imagine he'd be a nice person to hang out with, but I would say the same about the vast majority of elite athletes. While there may not be "formal proof" that Lance doped, the likelihood he didn't is approximately zero. Being of the view that Lance (& many other GC contenders) doped doesn't mean you "hate Lance" or "hate cycling". I would say it shows a firm grip on reality.

wolfix said:

At this point no one really cares if LA doped or not.

I would beg to differ. Look how many threads there are here about it. If anyone states that Lance doped, the followers of the religion of "I believe Lance" will always go beserk (again).

wolfix said:

Bruyneel has experience in winning 7 TDF's.

I would say that even I could have led Lance to 7 victories if I was his DS. He was clearly better than the opposition. I don't think Bruyneel can claim a whole lot of credit for his tactics and the '06 Tour showed that his tactical abilities were not very impressive when the chips were down.

Dutch "wielermagazine" reports today that Basso has already signed with Discovery

How does it look to have Basso racing by July? I would think that the TDF would want to have evrything cleared up to insure a good TDF with energy instead of what we had this year. It will be a Basso vs Vino TDF. I can't honestly see JU being a true contender. He simply does not seem to be able to put a good consistent spring together without something interfering with him. Bad luck follows him..... Possibly a Giro/TDF split?

This is very exciting. I think, now that the Japan Cup is over for Bruyneel, he will turn to addressing the Basso contract immediately. He will have Basso informally secured (at least) in the next few days.

I copied this from cyclingnews.be:

AUSTIN - De geruchtenmolen draait al ruime tijd op volle toeren, en daarin is de naam van Ivan Basso een vaak gehoord gegeven. Basso werd daarbij vaak gelinkt aan het Discovery Channel van Johan Bruyneel, maar bevestiging was er tot op heden niet. Daar komt nu verandering in, want de overstap van Basso naar Discovery Channel zou amper een kwestie van dagen zijn. Ook de Australiër Allan Davis staat volgens betrouwbare bronnen dicht bij een overstap naar het Amerikaanse team.

Does it say that Basso will shortly be signed by DC, as well as Allan Davis?

The fact that no one will sign Basso apart from DC shows their stance on drug use.... every team knows Basso used drugs by his performances in the Giro... no one is stupid enough to take the risk of losing out with him.... I look forward to Levi winning [censored] races in Europe then having to support a drug fuled Basso... it will make him sick and the team will fall apart (again)....

musette said:

This is very exciting. I think, now that the Japan Cup is over for Bruyneel, he will turn to addressing the Basso contract immediately. He will have Basso informally secured (at least) in the next few days.

I copied this from cyclingnews.be:

AUSTIN - De geruchtenmolen draait al ruime tijd op volle toeren, en daarin is de naam van Ivan Basso een vaak gehoord gegeven. Basso werd daarbij vaak gelinkt aan het Discovery Channel van Johan Bruyneel, maar bevestiging was er tot op heden niet. Daar komt nu verandering in, want de overstap van Basso naar Discovery Channel zou amper een kwestie van dagen zijn. Ook de Australiër Allan Davis staat volgens betrouwbare bronnen dicht bij een overstap naar het Amerikaanse team.

Does it say that Basso will shortly be signed by DC, as well as Allan Davis?

I happy without Basso, Ullrich, Landis in the peleton.... we don't need them.... DC if they were smart would work on a champion for the future instead of buyng tainted riders..... it won't work.... trust me it won't work... if you're Levi would you take orders from Basso.. ? If you were Hincapie would you take orderes from Basso ? It won't work...

whiteboytrash said:

The fact that no one will sign Basso apart from DC shows their stance on drug use.... every team knows Basso used drugs by his performances in the Giro... no one is stupid enough to take the risk of losing out with him.... I look forward to Levi winning [censored] races in Europe then having to support a drug fuled Basso... it will make him sick and the team will fall apart (again)....

wolfix said:

And who made you the spokesman for the court of public opinion? Not everyone has a "hate Lance" mindset that assumes things that have never been proven.

limerickman said:

Calm down.

With all the bile and hyperbole on this forum, Lim, just what was it about this particular post, and no others, that deserved this response, disdainful, disrespectful, as though the post were by a tempermental child?

JRMDC said:

With all the bile and hyperbole on this forum, Lim, just what was it about this particular post, and no others, that deserved this response, disdainful, disrespectful, as though the post were by a tempermental child?

Wolf and Patch were getting to loggerheads.

Calm down - isn't an attempt at being disrespectful.
It certainly wasn't intended in this way.

limerickman said:

Wolf and Patch were getting to loggerheads.

Calm down - isn't an attempt at being disrespectful.
It certainly wasn't intended in this way.

I didn't take it as an attempt to be disrespectful.......