Bastards.

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by MichaelB, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. John B wrote:
    >
    > dkahn400 wrote:
    >>Really? I experience some kind of unprovoked assault or attempted
    >>assault from a motor vehicle about every 2 months on average.

    >
    >
    > You don't get out much then ;-)


    I'd have issue with the 'unprovoked' bit.

    Sure, there are stupid people doing dangerous things on a near daily
    basis, but unprovoked assault by someone who is acting to do you
    specific harm, rather than just undertaking a stupid manoeuvre as they
    make their way somewhere?

    I do decent commuting mileage (~40-50 miles a week, all in zone 2/3 west
    London) with the occasional longer ride into the Surrey Hills and I
    can't remember the last time someone actively tried to take an
    unprovoked shot at me. It has happened, just really, really infrequently.

    On the other hand, maybe that it's that word - "unprovoked".

    I see plenty of cyclists around whose style is going to annoy other
    people - and I don't just mean the red light runners and pavement
    artists. I mean those with decent gear, reasonable talent and all the
    attitude as they pile around urban areas like it is a race track -
    exactly the attitude that would make them *really* dangerous behind a
    wheel and could make them a target for irate oiks.
     


  2. spindrift

    spindrift Guest

    chris harrison wrote:
    unprovoked assault by someone who is acting to do you
    > specific harm, rather than just undertaking a stupid manoeuvre as they
    > make their way somewhere?



    Yep.

    I see this every day in my East London commute. I've also been
    deliberately driven into by a driver using a car with fake plates.



    > I see plenty of cyclists around whose style is going to annoy other
    > people ..... they pile around urban areas like it is a race track -




    Cyclists going fast are an understandable target for someone using half
    a ton of steel as a weapon?

    There is NO EXCUSE for drivers attacking cyclists using their vehicle
    as a weapon, yet it happens all the time.

    Google Carl Baxter for an extreme example.


    http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/motorcarnage/baxter.html
     
  3. "dkahn400" <[email protected]>typed


    > Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
    > > "dkahn400" <[email protected]>typed


    > > You forgot Coren and Conway (and Katz, I think) ;-)


    > Katz and one or two others I knew about, but not Coren or Conway. My
    > grandfather apparently signed himself Kahn or Kahan as the fancy took
    > him.


    > There is also an unrelated Cornish name, Carne.


    Sir Roy York Calne AAW...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  4. spindrift wrote:
    > chris harrison wrote:
    > unprovoked assault by someone who is acting to do you
    >
    >>specific harm, rather than just undertaking a stupid manoeuvre as they
    >>make their way somewhere?

    >
    >
    >
    > Yep.
    >
    > I see this every day in my East London commute. I've also been
    > deliberately driven into by a driver using a car with fake plates.
    >
    >


    Well move to West London then, it seems nicer over here :)

    >
    >>I see plenty of cyclists around whose style is going to annoy other
    >>people ..... they pile around urban areas like it is a race track -

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Cyclists going fast are an understandable target for someone using half
    > a ton of steel as a weapon?


    No, that is not what I said. "Going fast" is not equivalent to using the
    road "like it is a race track".

    > There is NO EXCUSE for drivers attacking cyclists using their vehicle
    > as a weapon, yet it happens all the time.


    No it doesn't happen all the time. It might happen to you, but it
    doesn't happen to me.

    If it happens to you "all the time" then maybe it is your riding style
    that's riling them? That's not defending them, but it is searching for a
    possible reason for our differing perspective that is more than just the
    15 miles of Central London in between us.

    I do not ride timidly or slowly, yet I cannot think of a time when I was
    the victim of an unprovoked attack. Plenty of rubbish driving, just no
    outright callous vindictiveness.

    I'm minded always of Hanlon's Razor, "Never attribute to malice that
    which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
     
  5. Julesh

    Julesh Guest

    chris harrison wrote:

    >>

    >
    > Well move to West London then, it seems nicer over here :)


    I quite agree. I rarely have any trouble except getting shouted at by
    the very occasional impatient driver who seems to believe I should be
    cycling in the gutter so they can pass me more easily.

    I believe I live in the same parish as Dave Kahn too!

    I find London an absolutely brilliant place to cycle - lots of car free
    bus lanes allowing you to pass stationary cars with a huge grin on your
    face, enough cyclists so we are not considered a particular oddity, huge
    amounts of congestion keeping road speeds to those at which you can
    easily keep up with the traffic flow and, most important of all, no hills!


    Julesh
     
  6. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    chris harrison wrote:
    > John B wrote:
    > >
    > > dkahn400 wrote:
    > >>Really? I experience some kind of unprovoked assault or attempted
    > >>assault from a motor vehicle about every 2 months on average.

    > > You don't get out much then ;-)

    > I'd have issue with the 'unprovoked' bit.


    As you presumably weren't there you'll just have to take my word for
    it. I'm not talking about simple dangerous driving either, but actual
    assaults. I've had things thrown at me from cars, I've been pushed or
    punched from cars, I've had bottles and other missiles hurled at me by
    pedestrians, I've had pedestrians jump into the road and try to grab
    the bike, and I've been rammed from behind by a driver who was annoyed
    that I was holding him up in the bus lane. You could probably count
    that last one as provoked. For the others the only provocation was
    being a vulnerable target.

    --
    Dave...
     
  7. Danny Colyer

    Danny Colyer Guest

    dkahn400 wrote:
    > I was simply explaining why I have a name that is easily mistaken for
    > the Muslim Khan, which is the most common surname in Pakistan and
    > Afghanistan. Kahn is a variation of Cohen. Other variations include
    > Kahan, Kagan, Kane, Kaplan and, surprisingly perhaps, Schiff.


    That's interesting, thanks. I had no idea there were so many
    variations. I apologise for making an incorrect assumption based on
    ignorance.

    --
    Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
    Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
     
  8. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    Danny Colyer wrote:

    > That's interesting, thanks. I had no idea there were so many
    > variations. I apologise for making an incorrect assumption based on
    > ignorance.


    No apology required, I assure you.

    --
    Dave...
     
  9. spindrift

    spindrift Guest

    chris harrison wrote:
    > If it happens to you "all the time" then maybe it is your riding style
    > that's riling them? That's not defending them, but it is searching for a
    > possible reason for our differing perspective that is more than just the
    > 15 miles of Central London in between us.



    Well, 15 miles of Central London and a huge demographic shift from some
    of the poorest boroughs in the country to some of the richest.

    I'd love for you to join me on my commute through Waltham Forest,
    Hacknet, Tower Hamlets and The City, statistically the most dangerous
    place in the UK in which to cycle.

    As to riding style, I've been thinking about this and you are probably
    partly right, with caveats.

    Take Sewardstone and Old Ford Road.

    Streetmap:

    http://tinyurl.com/zhzxt

    This is a narrow residential road with speed bumps. A cyclist assumes
    the Primary Riding Position and can easily go faster than the vehicles
    that have to slow down for the bumps, BUT drivers cannot countenance a
    cyclist ahead of them so they overtake, cut in, slam the brakes on and
    cut up the cyclist.

    Now, you can anticipate dangerous and illegal behaviour by holding back
    and allowing cars to get ahead, although of course you never know which
    driver is going to be numpty enough to do something impatient and
    dangerous.

    But why should you?

    I don't, and if a collision occurred it would be the drivers' fault,
    not mine.

    Any cyclist in East London has a story of abuse from drivers, objects
    thrown, windscreen washers set to spray cyclists, sideswipes,
    aggressive driving.

    Thank your stars for where you live.
     
  10. BB

    BB Guest

    On 25 Apr 2006 08:32:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >I agree with you that trouble is only to be expected if you react
    >to provocation,
    >You appear to be saying something beyond
    >just that the victim is asking for trouble, you are saying that the
    >victim is *morally responsible* for that trouble



    If someone is "asking for trouble" they bear some of the blame when
    that request is answered.
     
  11. In article <[email protected]>, Julesh
    ([email protected]) wrote:

    > and, most important of all, no hills!


    FSVO "no". Keep close to the river and you may be OK, but both Norf and
    Saarf have some distinctly lumpy Scenery.

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    And then there was light and He thought it was good, so He threw the
    receipt away.
     
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