BB selection for Campy Veloce Triple crankset replacement

[LotusMan]

register.php?a=act&u=111526&i=70819112I am replacing a Campy Record double crank, circa 1999, with a Veloce triple crank, circa 2001. (both are 8/9 speed). There are too many big hills in my area and I haven't done this for a few years so I need the triple.

I assume that I need to replace the BB. Frame is Cr-Mo Lemond
(1999) which I assume is English thread (due to a BS6102:1 sticker on the bottom). Rest of the bike is basically 1999 vintage Record/Lemond. Can anyone recomend a BB (size and model) for me? Good value is probably prefered to ultimate competition quality. I'm not racing, and just getting started again. There seems to be a number of choices in the Campy product range (SC-S, Veloce, Record, Centaur, Mirage, Athena, etc.) as well as third party brands.

I would appreciate any thoughts, insights and recommendations you might have. Thanks.

 

[alfeng]

I am replacing a Campy Record double crank, circa 1999, with a Veloce triple crank, circa 2001. (both are 8/9 speed). There are too many big hills in my area and I haven't done this for a few years so I need the triple.

I assume that I need to replace the BB. Frame is Cr-Mo Lemond
(1999) which I assume is English thread (due to a BS6102:1 sticker on the bottom). Rest of the bike is basically 1999 vintage Record/Lemond. Can anyone recomend a BB (size and model) for me? Good value is probably prefered to ultimate competition quality. I'm not racing, and just getting started again. There seems to be a number of choices in the Campy product range (SC-S, Veloce, Record, Centaur, Mirage, Athena, etc.) as well as third party brands.

I would appreciate any thoughts, insights and recommendations you might have. Thanks.

YOUR Record double uses a symmetrical 102mm BB which is only suitable for Record & Chorus doubles.

I believe the Veloce Triple uses a 115mm BB which is only suitable for Daytona/Centaur, Veloce, Mirage & Xenon triples -- I believe the spindle is asymmetrical.

 

[LotusMan]

YOUR Record double uses a symmetrical 102mm BB which is only suitable for Record & Chorus doubles.

I believe the Veloce Triple uses a 115mm BB which is only suitable for Daytona/Centaur, Veloce, Mirage & Xenon triples -- I believe the spindle is asymmetrical.

Of the BB that are compatible with te Veloce triple cranks (size: English, 68x115) -- the ones that seem to be available are AC-H, Mirage, SC-S, Veloce, and Centaur -- which one would be recommended? Is any one of them particularly good value? The SC-S is the cheapest among them, so I might just stay away from that one. The Centaur BB is the most expensive (and requires a different tool), so unless I got a really good deal on one, I might avoid it. Is there much in the choice between the AC-H, Veloce and Mirage BB's? Thanks for the help.

 

[Eastway82]

Yep, I reckon you need a 115 BB (you might get away with a 111, but I wouldn't bother trying. The Mirage (SCS) is is very basic but runs smoothly enough - steel cups though. I've just got one of these and it creaks - first time I've had that problem. I believe the Veloce is available in two types, both fairly cheap: SCS is exactly the same as the Mirage! AC-S has alloy cups and is preferable - I've had several of these and no problems.
I'd be inclined to go with the AC-S rather than shelling out the extra on the Centaur, especially if you've already got tools for the older type.

Incidentally, I think older Record stuff used 111mm BB rather than current 102, but I could be wrong. Also, some Centaur/Veloce etc doubles need a 115mm BB depending on exactly the relationship between seat tube and BB shell/rear stays. My 2005 Centaur double needed 115mm BB to get everything lined up and running smoothly.

 

[alfeng]

Yep, I reckon you need a 115 BB (you might get away with a 111, but I wouldn't bother trying. The Mirage (SCS) is is very basic but runs smoothly enough - steel cups though. I've just got one of these and it creaks - first time I've had that problem. I believe the Veloce is available in two types, both fairly cheap: SCS is exactly the same as the Mirage! AC-S has alloy cups and is preferable - I've had several of these and no problems.
I'd be inclined to go with the AC-S rather than shelling out the extra on the Centaur, especially if you've already got tools for the older type.

Incidentally, I think older Record stuff used 111mm BB rather than current 102, but I could be wrong. Also, some Centaur/Veloce etc doubles need a 115mm BB depending on exactly the relationship between seat tube and BB shell/rear stays. My 2005 Centaur double needed 115mm BB to get everything lined up and running smoothly.

I believe the Record cranks changed at the same time the SHAPE of the shifters (vs. "shape shifters") changed -- circa 1998.

AC == Aluminum Cup ... SC, undoubtedly, means Steel Cup

An obvious difference in SOME of the Campagnolo Bottom Brackets is the TYPE OF TOOL that is used ...

At this point, I would let the TOOL that is used be my guide ... as stupid sounding as that is ...

I think that MOST of the current Campagnolo Bottom Brackets, regardless of group, use the same tool as is used for the cassette's lockring ...

The older (still being sold, but undoubtedly OLD STOCK) Bottom Brackets use a wrench that encircles the circumference of the BB cup. If you have the older tool, then that can be your guide ... but, since you have a Record crank, you probably use the "lock ring" tool ...

Again, I think the Centaur/Veloce/Mirage/etc. cranks use an asymmetrical spindle whereas the current (1998, and subsequent) use a symmetrical spindle ... so, although you can now buy a 111mm (?) Chorus BB, it will be symmetrical and your left crank arm will probably not be offset properly from the centerline -- the tapers ARE the same ...

NOT RECOMMENDED, but you can mount a Campy Veloce crank (or an older C-Record crank) on a Shimano BB ... the taper is the same, but it isn't ... same angles, but the Shimano's taper BEGINS LATER which means about 1-or-2 millimeters less of the Campy crank arm will be on the spindle (and, the Shimano crank arm would bottom out on a Campagnolo/Sugino spindle) -- so, a 113mm Shimano square taper BB could be used if nothing else were available as a substitute for a 115mm Campagnolo cartridge BB.

 

[Eastway82]

I believe the Record cranks changed at the same time the SHAPE of the shifters (vs. "shape shifters") changed -- circa 1998.
...
snip
The older (still being sold, but undoubtedly OLD STOCK) Bottom Brackets use a wrench that encircles the circumference of the BB cup. If you have the older tool, then that can be your guide ... but, since you have a Record crank, you probably use the "lock ring" tool ...

Again, I think the Centaur/Veloce/Mirage/etc. cranks use an asymmetrical spindle whereas the current (1998, and subsequent) use a symmetrical spindle ... so, although you can now buy a 111mm (?) Chorus BB, it will be symmetrical and your left crank arm will probably not be offset properly from the centerline -- the tapers ARE the same ...

NOT RECOMMENDED, but you can mount a Campy Veloce crank (or an older C-Record crank) on a Shimano BB ... the taper is the same, but it isn't ... same angles, but the Shimano's taper BEGINS LATER which means about 1-or-2 millimeters less of the Campy crank arm will be on the spindle (and, the Shimano crank arm would bottom out on a Campagnolo/Sugino spindle) -- so, a 113mm Shimano square taper BB could be used if nothing else were available as a substitute for a 115mm Campagnolo cartridge BB.

Veloce and Mirage using old style tool are still current - new tool currently starts at Centaur AFAIK.

My experience of trying to mate a Campag Centaur triple crank on a Shimano 113 BB is the opposite to what you suggest - it wasn't possible to fully tighten the crank bolt, and the back of the crank arm fouled on the BB shell.
Incidentally, should have noted that you might get away with a 111mm BB if you have a standard (28.6mm) or thereabouts) seat tube/derailleur clip. If the seat tube is oversize (32mm or bigger) you definitely need 115.

 

[alfeng]

Veloce and Mirage using old style tool are still current - new tool currently starts at Centaur AFAIK.

My experience of trying to mate a Campag Centaur triple crank on a Shimano 113 BB is the opposite to what you suggest - it wasn't possible to fully tighten the crank bolt, and the back of the crank arm fouled on the BB shell.
Incidentally, should have noted that you might get away with a 111mm BB if you have a standard (28.6mm) or thereabouts) seat tube/derailleur clip. If the seat tube is oversize (32mm or bigger) you definitely need 115.

Good to know about the Centaur BB vs. the Veloce/Mirage BB cups ... I would recommend the Centaur BB for that reason, alone.

Yes, PART of your experience makes sense ... because the mortise/"hole" of the square taper of the Campagnolo arms is smaller, you should NOT be able to tighten them as far onto a Shimano BB spindle -- that is, the spindle will NOT be as close to the opening ...

But, if the Campagnolo crank arms were making contact with the Shimano's cups then it may be a problem with an Italian threaded Bottom brackets (70mm wide vs. 68mm) ... BUT, not having a Centaur crank, I cannot quite see the conflict you have described happening ... although THAT was obviously your experience!

KIDS, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. REGARDLESS, a portion of the bulge/lip which surrounds the crankarm's square taper "mortise" is superfluous and could be filed away to allow the crankarm to clear the offending cup's lip IN A WORST CASE SCENARIO where you just had to use a Shimano BB with the Campy cranks. AGAIN, not recommended ...

 

[John M]

register.php?a=act&u=111526&i=70819112I am replacing a Campy Record double crank, circa 1999, with a Veloce triple crank, circa 2001. (both are 8/9 speed). There are too many big hills in my area and I haven't done this for a few years so I need the triple.

I assume that I need to replace the BB. Frame is Cr-Mo Lemond
(1999) which I assume is English thread (due to a BS6102:1 sticker on the bottom). Rest of the bike is basically 1999 vintage Record/Lemond. Can anyone recomend a BB (size and model) for me? Good value is probably prefered to ultimate competition quality. I'm not racing, and just getting started again. There seems to be a number of choices in the Campy product range (SC-S, Veloce, Record, Centaur, Mirage, Athena, etc.) as well as third party brands.

I would appreciate any thoughts, insights and recommendations you might have. Thanks.

Good comments from the others on quality of different options, and
as a user of Campy triple cranksets, I will give you a clear answer for fit.

That Veloce Triple will work with any Campy 115 mm symmetric BB (Mirage, Veloce, Centaur). If the seat tube of your frame is 28.6mm, a 111 symmetric (not Record or Chorus) will also work (unless your frame has very massive chainstays). The chainline would only vary by 2mm between the two options and the shorter BB (if you can use it), would give you a little narrower distance between the pedals (many riders like a low "Q factor"), and a slightly better chainline to the larger cassette cogs when in the middle chainring.


Good luck.

 

[Eastway82]

But, if the Campagnolo crank arms were making contact with the Shimano's cups then it may be a problem with an Italian threaded Bottom brackets (70mm wide vs. 68mm) ... BUT, not having a Centaur crank, I cannot quite see the conflict you have described happening ... although THAT was obviously your experience!

KIDS, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. REGARDLESS, a portion of the bulge/lip which surrounds the crankarm's square taper "mortise" is superfluous and could be filed away to allow the crankarm to clear the offending cup's lip IN A WORST CASE SCENARIO where you just had to use a Shimano BB with the Campy cranks. AGAIN, not recommended ...

I just went out to the shed and checked (all the offending parts are still there), and you're absolutely right - it was the other way round - the Centaur triple on Shimano 113 sat too far from the BB cup. It was when I tried to mount a Shimano triple (purely as an experiment) on a Campag BB that it went the other way. Sorry, I'll go boil my head...