BB Shell Cracked! Is this just what folders do, with a 210 lb rider?

[Jay]

On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
my BF folder:

http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/

Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?

I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.

Thanks guys.

J.

 

[landotter]

On Mar 10, 11:14 am, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> my BF folder:
>
> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
> to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
> expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
> how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
> knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> J.

"Most Bike Fridays are designed with a rider weight limit of 220lbs."

Unless you got a custom frame, you exceeded the limitations clearly
stated in their literature and would be committing fraud by making a
claim--but you are a wingnut, so par for the course.

 

[Jay]

On Mar 10, 11:26 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 10, 11:14 am, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> > my BF folder:
>
> >http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> > Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> > frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> > not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> > which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> > frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> > particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> > I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
> > to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
> > expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
> > how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
> > knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.
>
> > Thanks guys.
>
> > J.
>
> "Most Bike Fridays are designed with a rider weight limit of 220lbs."
>
> Unless you got a custom frame, you exceeded the limitations clearly
> stated in their literature and would be committing fraud by making a
> claim--but you are a wingnut, so par for the course.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
Thanks LO;

My frame is custom, which I mentioned in my post. A year ago, BF told
me my frame has been strengthened for my weight (compared with their
stock Pocket Tourist), and customized for my height.

Your wingnut pal - J.

 

[A Muzi]

Jay wrote:
> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> my BF folder:
>
> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
> to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
> expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
> how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
> knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.

I'd begin with a conversation with Bike Friday since you're the original
owner. There's a measurable incidence of failure in every manufactured
thing and there are procedures to rectify them.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jay]

On Mar 10, 1:36 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jay wrote:
> > On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> > my BF folder:
>
> >http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> > Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> > frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> > not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> > which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> > frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> > particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> > I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
> > to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
> > expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
> > how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
> > knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.
>
> I'd begin with a conversation with Bike Friday since you're the original
> owner. There's a measurable incidence of failure in every manufactured
> thing and there are procedures to rectify them.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
I wonder if, truth to tell, BF really does not expect their bikes to
be ridden very much. And certainly not carrying the load we are
talking about. So they just do not have much experience building a
heavy duty folder, for 5,000 commuting miles yearly, carrying 230 lbs
(rider + cargo). I picked up my Electra today, and riding it is like a
Lincoln Towncar, compared with my folder. I don't expect to ride the
BF much in the future. It will be collecting dust in a corner of my
garage most of the time.

J.

 

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On 2008-03-10, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I wonder if, truth to tell, BF really does not expect their bikes to
> be ridden very much. And certainly not carrying the load we are
> talking about.

I think you need to cut them some slack. They target bike tourists, which
aren't generally known for being gentle on their equipment. And they offer
a lifetime guarantee, which would not be a prudent business decision if they
truly didn't know how to build a rugged frame.

My guess: you got a bum BB shell (it happens), which combined with your
weight and our loverly Chicago salt habit to creat the crack you now see.

> I don't expect to ride the BF much in the future. It will be collecting
> dust in a corner of my garage most of the time.

Maybe I should take it off your hands

--

Kristian Zoerhoff
[email protected]

 

[Jay]

On Mar 10, 2:20 pm, Kristian M Zoerhoff <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 2008-03-10, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I wonder if, truth to tell, BF really does not expect their bikes to
> > be ridden very much. And certainly not carrying the load we are
> > talking about.
>
> I think you need to cut them some slack. They target bike tourists, which
> aren't generally known for being gentle on their equipment. And they offer
> a lifetime guarantee, which would not be a prudent business decision if they
> truly didn't know how to build a rugged frame.
>
> My guess: you got a bum BB shell (it happens), which combined with your
> weight and our loverly Chicago salt habit to creat the crack you now see.
>
> > I don't expect to ride the BF much in the future. It will be collecting
> > dust in a corner of my garage most of the time.
>
> Maybe I should take it off your hands
>
> --
>
> Kristian Zoerhoff
> [email protected]
>
>
That is tempting, but my strategy is to have at least one spare bike.
I am pretty sure I can work things out with BF. I am going to have
Rapid Transit Cycleshop do the parts transfer, since they carry BF. So
they would have some experience with them. Picking up my Electra from
RTC today, they have done a good job so far. I got the bike in 9 days,
when they originally said 2 weeks. There are a couple sped'ed parts
lacking, but they gave me the bike as it is, when I told them it is
either the Electra, or I am walking a significant distance every day.
So I will pick up the spec'ed parts when they come in.

I will only be riding the BF in nice weather, so that should take care
of some of the high maintenance I am seeing.

J.

 

[John Thompson]

On 2008-03-10, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:

> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> my BF folder:
>
> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?

It doesn't strike me as a particularly good design. Thin BB shell,
unbraced bracket mount, just asking for trouble IMHO.

--

John ([email protected])

 

[Jay]

"John Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2008-03-10, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
>> my BF folder:
>>
>> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>>
>> Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
>> frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
>> not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
>> which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
>> frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
>> particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> It doesn't strike me as a particularly good design. Thin BB shell,
> unbraced bracket mount, just asking for trouble IMHO.
>
> --
>
> John ([email protected])
>
I think you are right, John. I have minimal experience with bikes, as
everyone here knows. But I just visually compared my new Electra with my
folder, and it is night and day. I do know they are designed for completely
different uses. But the Electra is obviously a very substantial, well built,
well designed bike, built to last (as Andre said). This folder frame, after
one year (5,000 miles), has an ovalized head tube and a cracked BB shell. I
have just about had it with BF. This frame was supposed to be customized for
my height and weight. It looks like someone did not do the math. Sure, I
suppose BF will honor their lifetime warranty on the frame. But who wants
this kind of inconvenience? I just want a bike which will do the job.
Replacing frames on a yearly basis is no one's idea of good custom bike
design.

OK, I am counting to ten, and taking a sip. I need to be completely calm
before I email BF with the bad news.

J.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Jay:
>Is this the kind of damage
>which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
>frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
>particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?

I'm about 215# and I've cracked one BB shell on my MTB and
toasted three others on the same bike (Maverick removable BB
shell) by stripping the threads.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Jay]

"(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Per Jay:
>>Is this the kind of damage
>>which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
>>frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
>>particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> I'm about 215# and I've cracked one BB shell on my MTB and
> toasted three others on the same bike (Maverick removable BB
> shell) by stripping the threads.
> --
> PeteCresswell
>
So you are saying, what I am seeing is normal wear and tear? We all know I
am not a bike expert - you need to speak to me, as you would an inquisitive
child.

I am not doing anything close to extreme riding. I am just commuting to
work, on city streets.

Confused J.

 

[Andre Jute]

On Mar 10, 4:14 pm, Jay <[email protected]> wrote:
> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
> my BF folder:
>
> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/
>
> Regular RBTers know, I often carry 20-30 lbs cargo, 3 or 4 miles. This
> frame is one year old, ~ 5,000 miles, commuting on city streets. I do
> not jump off curbs, or anything like that. Is this the kind of damage
> which can be expected with a folding bike, under this load? Or is this
> frame defective (bad steel, something like that). Or is this
> particular folder frame design simply undersized for the load?
>
> I wanted to get the RBT experts opinion before breaking the bad news
> to BikeFriday. They do warranty their frames for life, so I don't
> expect a problem with them. But I am beginning to wonder if they know
> how to build a custom folding frame, strong enough for the load. They
> knew my weight and cargo beforehand, from many emails.
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> J.

I don't know anything about folders; never owned one though I've
lusted after a Moulton a few times not because I have use for it but
just because it is fine. I did look into Bike Friday at one point --
came across it while looking for information about DDWings -- and they
seem to be proud of their custom bikes, and many owners speak
exceedingly well of the personalized service. However, the owners all
seem to be retired guys touring or just going shopping; they're all
the sort of people who would rather pay for personal service than
quibble about price or take their chances with less than the best. But
I don't remember seeing anything about commuting, except one
Australian's wife, and that was not in harsh conditions.

I'd say Bike Friday owes you a fix or some kind of financial
arrangement, Jay, especially since you told them your weight and cargo
beforehand, and I imagine you told them also that you're a commuter. A
second bike, if you have space for it, would seem to me an essential
of the sort of commuting you do (what will you do if the supplier of
your Amsterdam wants the bike overnight or several days to service the
internal gear hub, which at 5000mpa could happen every few years?
(1)), and a folder might be a very convenient second bike, especially
if it costs you nothing extra beyond sending it to Bike Friday to be
fixed.

Andre Jute
Soft option rider

(1) I know what I would do: some time in the next year or two I'd buy
a spare wheel with the Nexus 8-speed hub, and just swap them around,
and give the wheel rather than the whole bike to the shop. I've seen
these wheels, surplus stock of manufacturers, come on Ebay in Germany
for under a hundred bucks. Whether it is worth having a spare front
wheel with roller brake is a different matter, unless you buy one
which also has the hub dynamo. The reason is that the service of the
roller brake is a ten second job, literally: you pull a rubber bung,
insert a lube tube nozzle, squeeze, and replace the rubber bung.

 

[Jay]

"Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7e95e963-2b92-461e-9671-ae24e68e2839@n36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

I don't know anything about folders; never owned one though I've
lusted after a Moulton a few times not because I have use for it but
just because it is fine. I did look into Bike Friday at one point --
came across it while looking for information about DDWings -- and they
seem to be proud of their custom bikes, and many owners speak
exceedingly well of the personalized service. However, the owners all
seem to be retired guys touring or just going shopping; they're all
the sort of people who would rather pay for personal service than
quibble about price or take their chances with less than the best.
>
You are quite right, Andre;

Regular RBTers can check the log, but I was convinced early on, that BF is
owned by a few wealthy guys, as a hobby.

My experience has been, great BF cust service, but my problems should not
have happened in the first place!

I'd say Bike Friday owes you a fix or some kind of financial
arrangement, Jay, especially since you told them your weight and cargo
beforehand, and I imagine you told them also that you're a commuter. A
second bike, if you have space for it, would seem to me an essential
of the sort of commuting you do (what will you do if the supplier of
your Amsterdam wants the bike overnight or several days to service the
internal gear hub, which at 5000mpa could happen every few years?
(1)), and a folder might be a very convenient second bike, especially
if it costs you nothing extra beyond sending it to Bike Friday to be
fixed.

Andre Jute
Soft option rider

I think this 'faux Dutch bike" Electra will be just fine, for what I need.

OK, I have a spare BF folder, collecting dust in a corner of my garage.
Anything wrong with this pic?

Thanks Andre and RBT - J.

 

[Donald Gillies]

Jay <[email protected]> writes:

>On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
>my BF folder:

>http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/

I wonder if anyone bothered to look at the pictures ??

That looks like a crack that started in the bottom bracket shell,
perhaps as a result of over-tighening the left-side cup. BF does not
manufacture these shells ~ they source them from somebody else. The
problem does not appear to be caused by Bike Friday, but their
warranty covers Q/A problems of their suppliers.

So I'd make a claim right away, and consider this : be polite, as it's
most likely that the fault is a quality control problem at one of
their suppliers. They are such a small outfit, that they probably
cannot afford the time or machinery to do rigorous Q/A tests on x% of
all the BB shells that they receive.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

 

[Donald Gillies]

[email protected] (Donald Gillies) writes:

>Jay <[email protected]> writes:

>>On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
>>my BF folder:

>>http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/

>I wonder if anyone bothered to look at the pictures ??

After looking a 2nd time, I do agree that the BB shell looks
crazy-thin for a suspension bike carrying a 200+ lbs rider. The crack
started near the welds, so over-heating is also a possibility. So, it
might be that they selected a too-thin shell, got a bum shell, or made
the shell brittle or too distorted during welding, or some combination
of these four possibilities.

I would send them an email and ask what they think would be the
appropriate way to solve the problem, looking for "thicker shell" as
the correct answer for 3 out of 4 of the possible causes (the 4th, q/a
at the shell maker, wouldn't necessarily be solved by a thicker shell.)

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

 

[Donald Gillies]

there is no "bike-frame-cad" software that can tell somebody how to
size-up a bike for more rugged applications. Novice frame builders
typically talk to elder builders, then make a few prototypes, beat on
them, give out prototypes to friends, and see if they work. A frame
building shop might also experience more failures when more junior
employees are hired, who don't braze or weld as well. All this stuff
has to be considered during bike design ...

You might be the only guy who paid a custom up-charge to BF and asked
for a reinforced frameset. To size up your frame, there are literally
30-40 variables - 4 per tube at least (including the size of EACH
weld, diamer of EACH tube, THICKNESS of tube, and BUTTING PROFILE
(single, double, quad, extent)) resulting in 1000's of possible ways
to up-size the frame.

It looks like they made a mistake in 1 dimension, the thickness of
their BB shell, perhaps because it was going to be a hassle to find a
thicker shell (no online frame building shop I know of lists the
thickness of their BB shells on their web catalogues.)

http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_108&products_id=897

So nobody got hurt,
Your frame will most likely get repaired and it will be improved,
You will be out a few months of riding,
they lost money on the sale,
But gained valuable experience on how to make tougher, better bikes,

It appears that just about everybody wins if they fix it and you go on
riding the bike as you always did ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

 

[Donald Gillies]

A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

>Well, I looked.

>We agree that, as the original owner, Jay should converse with Bike
>Friday directly about this. Moreso because it was custom built with both
>Jay and his cargo specified.

>I do not believe one could, even deliberately, split a steel BB shell by
>screwing a cup into it.

I agree that the theory is a longshot (maybe < 1% chance), and
generally it happens when over-tightening steel crank-arm bolts, or
steel pedal threads, to female aluminum crank arms - not with
steel-steel interfaces. However, for crank arms, after many thousands
of stress cycles, the female portion cracks and fails, just like this
BB shell.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

 

[A Muzi]

> Jay <[email protected]> writes:
>> On the way to work this morning, I noticed my BB shell is cracked on
>> my BF folder:
>> http://orion.neiu.edu/~jbollyn/bike/bb_shell/

Donald Gillies wrote:
> I wonder if anyone bothered to look at the pictures ??
> That looks like a crack that started in the bottom bracket shell,
> perhaps as a result of over-tighening the left-side cup. BF does not
> manufacture these shells ~ they source them from somebody else. The
> problem does not appear to be caused by Bike Friday, but their
> warranty covers Q/A problems of their suppliers.
> So I'd make a claim right away, and consider this : be polite, as it's
> most likely that the fault is a quality control problem at one of
> their suppliers. They are such a small outfit, that they probably
> cannot afford the time or machinery to do rigorous Q/A tests on x% of
> all the BB shells that they receive.

Well, I looked.

We agree that, as the original owner, Jay should converse with Bike
Friday directly about this. Moreso because it was custom built with both
Jay and his cargo specified.

I do not believe one could, even deliberately, split a steel BB shell by
screwing a cup into it.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[John Thompson]

On 2008-03-11, Donald Gillies <[email protected]> wrote:

> I wonder if anyone bothered to look at the pictures ??
>
> That looks like a crack that started in the bottom bracket shell,
> perhaps as a result of over-tighening the left-side cup.

It looked to me like the crack started in the heat-affected zone where
the stay bracket was attached to the shell.

--

John ([email protected])

 

[Jay]

"John Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2008-03-11, Donald Gillies <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone bothered to look at the pictures ??
>>
>> That looks like a crack that started in the bottom bracket shell,
>> perhaps as a result of over-tighening the left-side cup.
>
> It looked to me like the crack started in the heat-affected zone where
> the stay bracket was attached to the shell.
>
> --
>
> John ([email protected])
>
I tried to take the most helpful pics I could, but I confess, I have not yet
bought studio lighting stuff for taking bike pics. For a couple hundred USD,
I could set up a nice little bike photo studio. I have been too lazy and
cheap to do this. For this, I apologize.

Would additional pics be helpful? I could probably jerry-rig some amateur
lighting.

I don't want to come across as clueless, when I email BF. I wanted to get
RBT expert opinions first, because we all know that I am
bike-design-clueless.

J.