BBC - Campaign to reduce cyclist deaths

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Kennedy Fraser, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
    Text shown below.

    How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.

    Kennedy



    Cyclists are being advised to use their common sense

    A two-week safety campaign is under way to reduce the number of cyclists
    killed and injured on Edinburgh's roads.

    Lothian and Borders Police said there had been an "alarming" rise in
    cyclist deaths and injuries in the last five years.

    Nine cyclists died, 164 were seriously hurt and 1,081 suffered minor
    injuries between 2000 and 2005.

    Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
    cyclists advice during the campaign.

    Between June 1995 and June 2000 there was one fatality involving a
    cyclist, with 57 people seriously injured and 376 minor injuries.

    Lothian and Borders Police are concerned about the rise in fatalities in
    the last five years and have urged cyclists to travel with care.

    CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE

    Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

    Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

    Ensure lights on your bike are working


    Mr McNeil said: "It was clear something needed to be done to try to
    reduce the number of cyclists being killed or injured on our roads.

    "We know there has been an increase in the number of cyclists on the
    roads and this may well be one of the reasons for the marked increase.

    'Commonsense steps'

    "However, cyclists can take commonsense steps themselves to reduce the
    risk of being injured.

    "We will have officers out at various cycle routes across the city over
    the next two weeks who will be speaking to cyclists about road safety
    issues and ensuring they are not breaking the law."

    Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
    the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.
     
    Tags:


  2. "Kennedy Fraser" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
    >
    > Use safety helmets and other protective equipment
    >
    > Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you
    >
    > Ensure lights on your bike are working


    At least there is none of the usual nonsense about using cycle paths whenever
    possible!
     
  3. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    Kennedy Fraser wrote:
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
    > Text shown below.
    >
    > How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
    >
    > Kennedy
    >
    >


    Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
    responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
    spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
    Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.
     
  4. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100 someone who may be Kennedy Fraser
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm


    >Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
    >cyclists advice during the campaign.


    Hopefully not the sort of "advice" these bods usually give, such as
    telling cyclists that beware of low flying motorcycles signs mean
    that cycling is not allowed, or cycle as close to the kerb as
    possible.

    >CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
    >
    >Use safety helmets and other protective equipment


    I hope people tell them to get lost if they give such advice.

    >Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you


    The conspiracy con. It is clear who will lose in a war of escalating
    brightness.

    >Ensure lights on your bike are working


    After dark, presumably.

    >Mr McNeil said: "It was clear something needed to be done to try to
    >reduce the number of cyclists being killed or injured on our roads.


    Much of the above "advice" will not do so.

    >"We will have officers out at various cycle routes across the city over
    >the next two weeks who will be speaking to cyclists about road safety
    >issues and ensuring they are not breaking the law."


    Really, so they will be stopping cyclists travelling around
    Edinburgh and giving them unsound "advice".

    >Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
    >the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.


    Note that they will not be stopping motorists and giving them
    "advice".


    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  5. Nobody Here

    Nobody Here Guest

    MSeries <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Kennedy Fraser wrote:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
    >> Text shown below.
    >>
    >> How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
    >>
    >> Kennedy
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
    > responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
    > spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
    > Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.


    Indeed. Although it's morally and ethically wrong for a motorist be
    be less concerned for other's safety over their own, it's nevertheless
    reality. Principles don't matter any longer if you get squashed, and
    recklessness won't bring you a long and peaceful cycling life.

    --
    Nobby
     
  6. Blonde

    Blonde Guest

    David Hansen wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100 someone who may be Kennedy Fraser
    > <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >
    > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm

    >



    The article doesn't say how many cyclist fatalities were caused by
    incidents involving motor vehicles and how many were just cyclists
    'crashing'. I suspect that incidents involving motor vehicles account
    for the majority of cases though, which suggests to me that more weight
    should be given to motorists being trained to look out for cyclists and
    to drive more carefully, rather than stressing that cyclists should
    ride more carefully.

    It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
    numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
    expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
    but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
    cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
    incease per head. So the probability of being involved in a road
    accident as a cyclist may not have changed at all, or may even be lower
    than before! Articles like this put off potential new cyclists, and
    worry people like my Mother, who likes nothing better than a good
    worry. I hope she hasn't seen it or I'll never hear the last of how
    dangerous cycling is.... :- (
     
  7. Budstaff

    Budstaff Guest

    "MSeries" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Kennedy Fraser wrote:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
    >> Text shown below.
    >>
    >> How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
    >>
    >> Kennedy
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
    > responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
    > spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
    > Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.


    The risks that cyclists take endanger themselves, with very little risk to
    others and practically none to motorists (and before anyone flies a kite
    about the risk to pedestrians from cyclists, take a look at the number of
    injuries caused by motorised vehicles to pedestrians and compare it with
    that for cycles - cars cause many times more damage to pedestrians, even
    pedestrians on pavements).

    The best improvement to cycling accident statistics would be achieved if car
    drivers took responsibility for the stupid risks they take, which if they
    involve a cyclist invariably lead to damage to the latter.

    I guess that as you signed your message with the name of the car you own, or
    more likely dream about, I'll signoff with:

    Best regards
    Raleigh Randonneur>
     
  8. POHB

    POHB Guest

    I agree, usual woolly reporting of stats. I'm no expert but I can play with
    numbers too.
    A quick Google finds the government stats:
    http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_032077.pdf
    http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_032078.pdf

    Correlating the two docs shows that between 1980-2003 the number of cyclists
    killed per billion Km each year fell from 60 to 25, or you could say cycling
    has become more than twice as safe in twenty years.

    e.g. if you cycled 5000km in 1980 you stood a 0.003% chance of being killed,
    in 2003 that chance fell to 0.0013%



    "Blonde" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
    > numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
    > expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
    > but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
    > cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
    > incease per head. So the probability of being involved in a road
    > accident as a cyclist may not have changed at all, or may even be lower
    > than before!
     
  9. MSeries wrote:
    > Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
    > responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
    > spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
    > Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.
    >


    It's all about risk assessment. What you'd think you could 'get away
    with' in a car - or even if the other party was a car - you can't
    necessarily if there's a bike involved.

    Human nature tends to assume everyone else is like us - but it rarely is
    so simple.

    I remember the first words in my first driving lesson that my instructor
    said to me, they've stayed with me and served me well; "there are two
    assumptions to make about every other road user - that they are both
    stupid and out to get you".

    If you take that as your baseline, every bit of common sense and
    courtesy you see both surprises and pleases you :)
     
  10. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Blonde wrote:
    >
    > It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
    > numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
    > expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
    > but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
    > cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
    > incease per head.
    >


    More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
    downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
    saying it is increasing. What would be interesting is to understand
    what is it about Edinburgh that is causing them to buck the national trend.

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon
     
  11. NJF

    NJF Guest

    Kennedy Fraser wrote:
    > CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
    >
    > Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

    maybe
    >
    > Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

    Yep
    >
    > Ensure lights on your bike are working

    Of course

    How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
    scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
    have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
    speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
    other, let alone cyclists....
     
  12. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    NJF wrote:

    > How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
    > scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
    > have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
    > speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
    > other, let alone cyclists....


    Don't remove cameras, just hide them so they don't distract.. Behind
    big round signs, red border with black lettering to indicate the speed
    limit. That should do nicely.

    ...d
     
  13. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    NJF wrote:
    > Kennedy Fraser wrote:
    > > CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
    > >
    > > Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

    > maybe
    > >
    > > Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

    > Yep
    > >
    > > Ensure lights on your bike are working

    > Of course
    >
    > How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
    > scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
    > have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
    > speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
    > other, let alone cyclists....


    Now are getting close to the real issue. Remove all 'safety features'
    such as airbags, side impact protection systems, crumple zones. They'll
    be more careful then.
     
  14. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    Nobody Here wrote:

    > Indeed. Although it's morally and ethically wrong for a motorist be
    > be less concerned for other's safety over their own, it's
    > nevertheless reality.


    It's not so much that they put their own safety before that of
    cyclists, it's that they put their personal convenience before it.

    --
    Dave...
     
  15. POHB

    POHB Guest

    "MSeries" <[email protected]> wrote

    > Now are getting close to the real issue. Remove all 'safety features'
    > such as airbags, side impact protection systems, crumple zones. They'll
    > be more careful then.
    >


    Yes, there's the old idea that the best way to reduce car accidents would be
    to make seat belts illegal and put a big metal spike in the centre of the
    steering wheel.
     
  16. Fred

    Fred Guest

    "Kennedy Fraser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]


    > Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
    > the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.


    Perhaps local councils should take note of this. Around here there are a
    number of islands introduced into the middle of the road presumably to see
    how close cars and bikes can get before there's contact. Then in other
    places they put in a completely useless cycle lane to make a perfectly good
    road seem narrower to cars.
     
  17. Kennedy Fraser wrote:

    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
    > Text shown below.
    > ... Cyclists are being advised to use their common sense
    >
    > A two-week safety campaign is under way to reduce the number of cyclists
    > killed and injured on Edinburgh's roads.

    ....
    > Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
    > cyclists advice during the campaign.
    > CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
    >
    > Use safety helmets and other protective equipment


    Which being interpreted is: ignore this advice, the people giving it
    don't know what they are talking about.

    > Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you


    Blind, are they?

    > Ensure lights on your bike are working


    But don't worry about non-working brakes, self-detaching chains, or
    handlebars that turn without troubling the front wheel to do likewise.

    > ... Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as
    > possible on the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.


    This wording won't do. Nor will the 'as much space as you would a car'
    wording in the HC.

    Cars happily miss each other by inches. As much room as possible
    implies 2 inches will do if there happens to be a traffic island at
    the point where you want to overtake.

    I think we need something much more prescriptive like 'give cyclists
    at least a metre of clearance when overtaking at speeds up to 30 mph;
    much more at higher speeds.'

    Colin McKenzie
     
  18. Nick Kew

    Nick Kew Guest

    Tony Raven wrote:

    > More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
    > downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
    > saying it is increasing.


    No mystery, just insufficient data. If four times more cyclists,
    then a doubling of casualties and a halving of casualty rates are
    entirely consistent, and _on balance_ a Good Thing.

    --
    Nick Kew
     
  19. I submit that on or about Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100, the person
    known to the court as Kennedy Fraser <[email protected]>
    made a statement (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's
    bundle) to the following effect:

    >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm


    To read it you'd almost believe that cyclists were responsible for the
    majority of their own injuries. The truth of course is somewhat
    different...

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
     
  20. I submit that on or about Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:34:31 +0100, the person
    known to the court as Tony Raven <[email protected]> made a
    statement (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
    the following effect:

    >More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
    >downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
    >saying it is increasing. What would be interesting is to understand
    >what is it about Edinburgh that is causing them to buck the national trend.


    In such small samples this is bound to happen sometimes.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
     
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