BBC - Campaign to reduce cyclist deaths

[Kennedy Fraser]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
Text shown below.

How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.

Kennedy



Cyclists are being advised to use their common sense

A two-week safety campaign is under way to reduce the number of cyclists
killed and injured on Edinburgh's roads.

Lothian and Borders Police said there had been an "alarming" rise in
cyclist deaths and injuries in the last five years.

Nine cyclists died, 164 were seriously hurt and 1,081 suffered minor
injuries between 2000 and 2005.

Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
cyclists advice during the campaign.

Between June 1995 and June 2000 there was one fatality involving a
cyclist, with 57 people seriously injured and 376 minor injuries.

Lothian and Borders Police are concerned about the rise in fatalities in
the last five years and have urged cyclists to travel with care.

CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE

Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

Ensure lights on your bike are working


Mr McNeil said: "It was clear something needed to be done to try to
reduce the number of cyclists being killed or injured on our roads.

"We know there has been an increase in the number of cyclists on the
roads and this may well be one of the reasons for the marked increase.

'Commonsense steps'

"However, cyclists can take commonsense steps themselves to reduce the
risk of being injured.

"We will have officers out at various cycle routes across the city over
the next two weeks who will be speaking to cyclists about road safety
issues and ensuring they are not breaking the law."

Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.

 

[Adrian Boliston]

"Kennedy Fraser" <[email protected]> wrote:

> CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
>
> Use safety helmets and other protective equipment
>
> Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you
>
> Ensure lights on your bike are working

At least there is none of the usual nonsense about using cycle paths whenever
possible!

 

[MSeries]

Kennedy Fraser wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
> Text shown below.
>
> How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
>
> Kennedy
>
>

Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.

 

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100 someone who may be Kennedy Fraser
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm

>Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
>cyclists advice during the campaign.

Hopefully not the sort of "advice" these bods usually give, such as
telling cyclists that beware of low flying motorcycles signs mean
that cycling is not allowed, or cycle as close to the kerb as
possible.

>CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
>
>Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

I hope people tell them to get lost if they give such advice.

>Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

The conspiracy con. It is clear who will lose in a war of escalating
brightness.

>Ensure lights on your bike are working

After dark, presumably.

>Mr McNeil said: "It was clear something needed to be done to try to
>reduce the number of cyclists being killed or injured on our roads.

Much of the above "advice" will not do so.

>"We will have officers out at various cycle routes across the city over
>the next two weeks who will be speaking to cyclists about road safety
>issues and ensuring they are not breaking the law."

Really, so they will be stopping cyclists travelling around
Edinburgh and giving them unsound "advice".

>Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
>the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.

Note that they will not be stopping motorists and giving them
"advice".


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Nobody Here]

MSeries <[email protected]> wrote:
> Kennedy Fraser wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
>> Text shown below.
>>
>> How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
>>
>> Kennedy
>>
>>
>
> Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
> responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
> spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
> Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.

Indeed. Although it's morally and ethically wrong for a motorist be
be less concerned for other's safety over their own, it's nevertheless
reality. Principles don't matter any longer if you get squashed, and
recklessness won't bring you a long and peaceful cycling life.

--
Nobby

 

[Blonde]

David Hansen wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100 someone who may be Kennedy Fraser
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
>


The article doesn't say how many cyclist fatalities were caused by
incidents involving motor vehicles and how many were just cyclists
'crashing'. I suspect that incidents involving motor vehicles account
for the majority of cases though, which suggests to me that more weight
should be given to motorists being trained to look out for cyclists and
to drive more carefully, rather than stressing that cyclists should
ride more carefully.

It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
incease per head. So the probability of being involved in a road
accident as a cyclist may not have changed at all, or may even be lower
than before! Articles like this put off potential new cyclists, and
worry people like my Mother, who likes nothing better than a good
worry. I hope she hasn't seen it or I'll never hear the last of how
dangerous cycling is.... :- (

 

[Budstaff]

"MSeries" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kennedy Fraser wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
>> Text shown below.
>>
>> How about they speak to drivers as well to combat the rise in fatalities.
>>
>> Kennedy
>>
>>
>
> Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
> responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
> spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
> Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.

The risks that cyclists take endanger themselves, with very little risk to
others and practically none to motorists (and before anyone flies a kite
about the risk to pedestrians from cyclists, take a look at the number of
injuries caused by motorised vehicles to pedestrians and compare it with
that for cycles - cars cause many times more damage to pedestrians, even
pedestrians on pavements).

The best improvement to cycling accident statistics would be achieved if car
drivers took responsibility for the stupid risks they take, which if they
involve a cyclist invariably lead to damage to the latter.

I guess that as you signed your message with the name of the car you own, or
more likely dream about, I'll signoff with:

Best regards
Raleigh Randonneur>

 

[POHB]

I agree, usual woolly reporting of stats. I'm no expert but I can play with
numbers too.
A quick Google finds the government stats:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_032077.pdf
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_032078.pdf

Correlating the two docs shows that between 1980-2003 the number of cyclists
killed per billion Km each year fell from 60 to 25, or you could say cycling
has become more than twice as safe in twenty years.

e.g. if you cycled 5000km in 1980 you stood a 0.003% chance of being killed,
in 2003 that chance fell to 0.0013%



"Blonde" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
> numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
> expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
> but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
> cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
> incease per head. So the probability of being involved in a road
> accident as a cyclist may not have changed at all, or may even be lower
> than before!

 

[chris harrison]

MSeries wrote:
> Whilst I agree with you about motorised road users taking
> responsibility for safety of others, I am also in agreement with the
> spirit of the campaign. I see many cyclists taking stupid risks here in
> Leeds, why ? to save a few minutes on their journey. It goes both ways.
>

It's all about risk assessment. What you'd think you could 'get away
with' in a car - or even if the other party was a car - you can't
necessarily if there's a bike involved.

Human nature tends to assume everyone else is like us - but it rarely is
so simple.

I remember the first words in my first driving lesson that my instructor
said to me, they've stayed with me and served me well; "there are two
assumptions to make about every other road user - that they are both
stupid and out to get you".

If you take that as your baseline, every bit of common sense and
courtesy you see both surprises and pleases you

 

[Tony Raven]

Blonde wrote:
>
> It's difficult to make sense of the statistics in the article. If the
> numbers of cyclists on the roads in the UK have risen, then one would
> expect a tallying rise in the number of incidents involving cyclists,
> but because they dont give a percentage, or number of accidents per
> cyclist, it's impossible to know if there has actually been a real
> incease per head.
>

More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
saying it is increasing. What would be interesting is to understand
what is it about Edinburgh that is causing them to buck the national trend.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

 

[NJF]

Kennedy Fraser wrote:
> CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
>
> Use safety helmets and other protective equipment
maybe
>
> Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you
Yep
>
> Ensure lights on your bike are working
Of course

How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
other, let alone cyclists....

 

[David Martin]

NJF wrote:

> How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
> scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
> have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
> speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
> other, let alone cyclists....

Don't remove cameras, just hide them so they don't distract.. Behind
big round signs, red border with black lettering to indicate the speed
limit. That should do nicely.

...d

 

[MSeries]

NJF wrote:
> Kennedy Fraser wrote:
> > CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
> >
> > Use safety helmets and other protective equipment
> maybe
> >
> > Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you
> Yep
> >
> > Ensure lights on your bike are working
> Of course
>
> How about *remove all distractions* such as excessive road signage,
> scameras, stereos and the like, most motorists driving modern quiet cars
> have no idea of their speed without constantly looking down at the
> speedo and without the doubt its one of the reasons so many hit each
> other, let alone cyclists....

Now are getting close to the real issue. Remove all 'safety features'
such as airbags, side impact protection systems, crumple zones. They'll
be more careful then.

 

[dkahn400]

Nobody Here wrote:

> Indeed. Although it's morally and ethically wrong for a motorist be
> be less concerned for other's safety over their own, it's
> nevertheless reality.

It's not so much that they put their own safety before that of
cyclists, it's that they put their personal convenience before it.

--
Dave...

 

[POHB]

"MSeries" <[email protected]> wrote

> Now are getting close to the real issue. Remove all 'safety features'
> such as airbags, side impact protection systems, crumple zones. They'll
> be more careful then.
>

Yes, there's the old idea that the best way to reduce car accidents would be
to make seat belts illegal and put a big metal spike in the centre of the
steering wheel.

 

[Fred]

"Kennedy Fraser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as possible on
> the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.

Perhaps local councils should take note of this. Around here there are a
number of islands introduced into the middle of the road presumably to see
how close cars and bikes can get before there's contact. Then in other
places they put in a completely useless cycle lane to make a perfectly good
road seem narrower to cars.

 

[Colin McKenzie]

Kennedy Fraser wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm
> Text shown below.
> ... Cyclists are being advised to use their common sense
>
> A two-week safety campaign is under way to reduce the number of cyclists
> killed and injured on Edinburgh's roads.
....
> Superintendent Colin McNeill said road safety officers would be giving
> cyclists advice during the campaign.
> CYCLIST SAFETY ADVICE
>
> Use safety helmets and other protective equipment

Which being interpreted is: ignore this advice, the people giving it
don't know what they are talking about.

> Wear suitable high visibility clothing so other road users can see you

Blind, are they?

> Ensure lights on your bike are working

But don't worry about non-working brakes, self-detaching chains, or
handlebars that turn without troubling the front wheel to do likewise.

> ... Police are urging motorists to give cyclists as much room as
> possible on the roads and take extra care when making manoeuvres.

This wording won't do. Nor will the 'as much space as you would a car'
wording in the HC.

Cars happily miss each other by inches. As much room as possible
implies 2 inches will do if there happens to be a traffic island at
the point where you want to overtake.

I think we need something much more prescriptive like 'give cyclists
at least a metre of clearance when overtaking at speeds up to 30 mph;
much more at higher speeds.'

Colin McKenzie

 

[Nick Kew]

Tony Raven wrote:

> More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
> downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
> saying it is increasing.

No mystery, just insufficient data. If four times more cyclists,
then a doubling of casualties and a halving of casualty rates are
entirely consistent, and _on balance_ a Good Thing.

--
Nick Kew

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

I submit that on or about Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:28:27 +0100, the person
known to the court as Kennedy Fraser <[email protected]>
made a statement (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's
bundle) to the following effect:

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4261234.stm

To read it you'd almost believe that cyclists were responsible for the
majority of their own injuries. The truth of course is somewhat
different...

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

I submit that on or about Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:34:31 +0100, the person
known to the court as Tony Raven <[email protected]> made a
statement (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

>More worrying to me is the fact that cyclist ksi has been on a long
>downward trend in the UK as a whole yet in Edinburgh they seem to be
>saying it is increasing. What would be interesting is to understand
>what is it about Edinburgh that is causing them to buck the national trend.

In such small samples this is bound to happen sometimes.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken