Bearings inside crankarm? stationary axle?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by [email protected], Jan 23, 2006.

  1. I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...

    so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    in the crank?

    -Mark Beattie
    Astoria, NY
     
    Tags:


  2. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On 23 Jan 2006 09:51:33 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

    >I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    >Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    >fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    >the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    >bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    >Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    >bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    >make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    >II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...
    >
    >so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    >in the crank?


    The Klein bottom bracket works just fine. By "make it work" you must mean
    something other than make it work, because there's just plain nothing wrong with
    the way your bike was built in the first place. The bearings are fairly standard
    and there are good bike shops all over that can replace them. Phil Wood has
    spindles and bearings. Given the choice between the Klein design and anything
    Shimano's done in years, I'll take the Klein for reliability, quality and class.

    All that aside, if you dislike the Klein for being unusual, why "correct" that
    by doing something downright weird?

    Ron
     
  3. Mark R Beattie writes:

    > I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    > Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    > fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead
    > of the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with
    > racing bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an
    > old stupid Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style
    > BB w/ 35mm OD bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of
    > some other ways to make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells
    > new Shimano Hollowtech II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...


    > so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually
    > pressed in the crank?


    I don't understand how this Kline bottle type BB is to work. On what
    does the bearing run and what rotates? If the cranks rotate then so
    must the axle in order to transmit motion from one to the other.

    http://www.mathemagic.org/MOBM/moebiusmolecules.html

    Jobst Brandt
     
  4. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote: I don't understand how this Kline
    bottle type BB is to work. On what does the bearing run and what rotates?
    If the cranks rotate then so must the axle in order to transmit motion from
    one to the other.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Think "out of the bottle," Jobst. It could be done by having a chain ring
    on each side. Two chains would run on two cogsets in back, which would
    synchronize the pedals. As long as the two deraileurs always shifted
    exactly together, I can't see any problem. <G>
     
  5. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    > Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    > fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    > the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    > bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    > Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    > bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    > make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    > II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...
    >
    > so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    > in the crank?
    >
    > -Mark Beattie
    > Astoria, NY
    >


    How would the arms stay synched? Or would they spin independently of the
    other? I don't see THAT being a good thing, but maybe the marketers could
    think of a good way to pitch it.

    -Hank
     
  6. Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    > > Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    > > fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    > > the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    > > bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    > > Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    > > bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    > > make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    > > II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...
    > >
    > > so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    > > in the crank?
    > >
    > > -Mark Beattie
    > > Astoria, NY
    > >

    >
    > How would the arms stay synched? Or would they spin independently of the
    > other? I don't see THAT being a good thing, but maybe the marketers could
    > think of a good way to pitch it.
    >
    > -Hank


    http://www.powercranks.com/about/concept.htm

    Are exactly as you describe, with each side spinning independently. As
    they see it, it is a good thing! I'd like to try, but they are quite
    expensive.

    Joseph
     
  7. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:20:41 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    ><[email protected]> wrote: I don't understand how this Kline
    >bottle type BB is to work. On what does the bearing run and what rotates?
    >If the cranks rotate then so must the axle in order to transmit motion from
    >one to the other.
    >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >Think "out of the bottle," Jobst. It could be done by having a chain ring
    >on each side. Two chains would run on two cogsets in back, which would
    >synchronize the pedals. As long as the two deraileurs always shifted
    >exactly together, I can't see any problem. <G>


    Has to be a fixie, though, and *that* creates a problem with the ders.

    Alternately, mount a small jackshaft on the downtube and run a short
    chain to it from a small identical-size sprocket on each crank, or
    place a pair of gears under the BB meshing with a crown gear on each
    crank to transmit the left crank's motion to the right crank.

    None of these ideas is as potentially useful as simply employing an
    Ashtabula-size BB shell and fitting a bigger bearing than is possible
    with the current threaded BB shells. This change would allow larger
    hollow axle diameters and larger bearings without the need for
    cumbersome outboard assemblies and costly proprietary bearings at all.
    It will never be used in the road and mountain bike market, however,
    because it's doubtless viewed as BMX tech, and BMX is for kids...
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  8. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On 23 Jan 2006 13:43:58 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >Hank Wirtz wrote:
    >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> >I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    >> > Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    >> > fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    >> > the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    >> > bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    >> > Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    >> > bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    >> > make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    >> > II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...
    >> >
    >> > so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    >> > in the crank?
    >> >
    >> > -Mark Beattie
    >> > Astoria, NY
    >> >

    >>
    >> How would the arms stay synched? Or would they spin independently of the
    >> other? I don't see THAT being a good thing, but maybe the marketers could
    >> think of a good way to pitch it.
    >>
    >> -Hank

    >
    >http://www.powercranks.com/about/concept.htm
    >
    >Are exactly as you describe, with each side spinning independently. As
    >they see it, it is a good thing! I'd like to try, but they are quite
    >expensive.


    Good thing? Hardly! Try them sometime.

    Besides, they still use a rotating axle, as they must in order to
    transmit the power from left to right and connect to the chain. A
    fixed axle would be just a support, and in order for it to be used
    with a pair of cranks that were mechanically connected without the use
    of a 90-degree drive or external power transmission path of some sort,
    the axle would need to have a mounting point outboard of the cranks
    themselves on each side, thereby precluding rotation of the cranks
    through a full circle.

    This is one of the most basic "you can't get there from here" concepts
    in design.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  9. Werehatrack wrote:
    > On 23 Jan 2006 13:43:58 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > >....
    > >http://www.powercranks.com/about/concept.htm
    > >
    > >Are exactly as you describe, with each side spinning independently. As
    > >they see it, it is a good thing! I'd like to try, but they are quite
    > >expensive.

    >
    > Good thing? Hardly! Try them sometime....


    Is riding with PowerCranks worse than re-reading this thread in its
    entirety:
    <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/1cb202dcec87725/370e73a664d795c9?q=day+coggan&rnum=3#370e73a664d795c9>?
    ;)

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)
     
  10. Werehatrack wrote:
    > On 23 Jan 2006 13:43:58 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]
    > >> >I was reading a discussion thread about in vs. outboard bearings,
    > >> > Italian vs. ISO threading, and someone mentioned the idea of using a
    > >> > fixed BB axle with the bearings pressed into the crankarms instead of
    > >> > the whole external bearing mish-mash we have currently with racing
    > >> > bikes today... I'm only thinking of this because I bought an old stupid
    > >> > Klein with the non-threaded non-standard pressed-in style BB w/ 35mm OD
    > >> > bearings 17mm ID, and have been trying to think of some other ways to
    > >> > make it work... http://www.reset-racing.de sells new Shimano Hollowtech
    > >> > II style press-in cups for 99 Euros...
    > >> >
    > >> > so, does anyone recall cranks being made with bearings actually pressed
    > >> > in the crank?
    > >> >
    > >> > -Mark Beattie
    > >> > Astoria, NY
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >> How would the arms stay synched? Or would they spin independently of the
    > >> other? I don't see THAT being a good thing, but maybe the marketers could
    > >> think of a good way to pitch it.
    > >>
    > >> -Hank

    > >
    > >http://www.powercranks.com/about/concept.htm
    > >
    > >Are exactly as you describe, with each side spinning independently. As
    > >they see it, it is a good thing! I'd like to try, but they are quite
    > >expensive.

    >
    > Good thing? Hardly! Try them sometime.
    >
    > Besides, they still use a rotating axle, as they must in order to
    > transmit the power from left to right and connect to the chain. A
    > fixed axle would be just a support, and in order for it to be used
    > with a pair of cranks that were mechanically connected without the use
    > of a 90-degree drive or external power transmission path of some sort,
    > the axle would need to have a mounting point outboard of the cranks
    > themselves on each side, thereby precluding rotation of the cranks
    > through a full circle.
    >
    > This is one of the most basic "you can't get there from here" concepts
    > in design.


    I didn't catch that it had to be a fixie! Since we are already on the
    subject of crazy things, you could use powercranks on a fixed gear by
    flipping one of the arms around and mounting it inside-out. That way
    you get one leg for "Go!" and the other for "Whoa!"

    Or your could spend the $800 on some sort of drive shaft setup with a
    differential in the middle of the BB so that one leg could rotate X
    rpm, while the other could rotate 2X, or one leg could even go the
    other way!

    Joseph
     
  11. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) or one leg could even go the
    other way!
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This thread is beginning to sound a little silly.
     
  12. On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:51:13 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    ><[email protected]> wrote: (clip) or one leg could even go the
    >other way!
    >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >This thread is beginning to sound a little silly.


    I quite agree. Stop that, all of you. No one enjoys a good joke any
    more than I do...no, wait, actually everyone enjoys a good joke more
    than I do, but this is getting entirely too silly, so we will now move
    on to the Next Thread.

    Not so fast; in an orderly manner, now...To The Next Thread!
     
  13. On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:51 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

    > I don't understand how this Kline bottle type BB is to work.


    Umm, that would be a Klein bottle, named after German mathematician Felix
    Klein. I'm surprised at you, Jobst. But maybe you got that spelling from
    the web page you indicated, where the same mistake occurs.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
    _`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, Inspector
    Leopard of the Yard ([email protected]) wrote:
    > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:51:13 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > ><[email protected]> wrote: (clip) or one leg could even go the
    > >other way!
    > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > >This thread is beginning to sound a little silly.

    >
    > I quite agree. Stop that, all of you. No one enjoys a good joke any
    > more than I do...no, wait, actually everyone enjoys a good joke more
    > than I do, but this is getting entirely too silly, so we will now move
    > on to the Next Thread.
    >
    > Not so fast; in an orderly manner, now...To The Next Thread!


    There's never a Python policeman around when you need one, is there?

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Pepperoni and green peppers, mushrooms, olives, chives!
     
  15. Leo Lichtman wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote: I don't understand how this Kline
    > bottle type BB is to work. On what does the bearing run and what rotates?
    > If the cranks rotate then so must the axle in order to transmit motion from
    > one to the other.
    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > Think "out of the bottle," Jobst. It could be done by having a chain ring
    > on each side. Two chains would run on two cogsets in back, which would
    > synchronize the pedals. As long as the two deraileurs always shifted
    > exactly together, I can't see any problem. <G>


    Only one chain, formed into a Moebius strip. (They have their own
    problems -like, which side do you lube?)
     
  16. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    "Brian Huntley" wrote: Only one chain, formed into a Moebius strip. (They
    have their own problems -like, which side do you lube?)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    You must be an old fart, like me. When I was a kid, I recall an big old
    irrigation pump, driven by a flat belt, which actually WAS spliced into a
    Moebius strip, to equalize the wear on both sides (or was it one side?)
     
  17. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:51 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
    >>I don't understand how this Kline bottle type BB is to work.


    David L. Johnson wrote:
    > Umm, that would be a Klein bottle, named after German mathematician Felix
    > Klein. I'm surprised at you, Jobst. But maybe you got that spelling from
    > the web page you indicated, where the same mistake occurs.


    Darn. I thought that was a purposeful bit of humor from
    Jobst. Klein Bottle BBs, road course by Escher, etc.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  18. Dave Larrington wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, Inspector
    > Leopard of the Yard ([email protected]) wrote:
    > > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:51:13 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
    > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > ><[email protected]> wrote: (clip) or one leg could even go the
    > > >other way!
    > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > > >This thread is beginning to sound a little silly.

    > >
    > > I quite agree. Stop that, all of you. No one enjoys a good joke any
    > > more than I do...no, wait, actually everyone enjoys a good joke more
    > > than I do, but this is getting entirely too silly, so we will now move
    > > on to the Next Thread.
    > >
    > > Not so fast; in an orderly manner, now...To The Next Thread!

    >
    > There's never a Python policeman around when you need one, is there?


    The Spanish Inquisition might unexpectedly show up.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
     
  19. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Dave Larrington wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Inspector
    > > Leopard of the Yard ([email protected]) wrote:
    > > > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:51:13 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
    > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > ><[email protected]> wrote: (clip) or one leg could even go the
    > > > >other way!
    > > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > > > >This thread is beginning to sound a little silly.
    > > >
    > > > I quite agree. Stop that, all of you. No one enjoys a good joke any
    > > > more than I do...no, wait, actually everyone enjoys a good joke more
    > > > than I do, but this is getting entirely too silly, so we will now move
    > > > on to the Next Thread.
    > > >
    > > > Not so fast; in an orderly manner, now...To The Next Thread!

    > >
    > > There's never a Python policeman around when you need one, is there?

    >
    > The Spanish Inquisition might unexpectedly show up.


    Now we are expecting it.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  20. Leo Lichtman wrote:
    > "Brian Huntley" wrote: Only one chain, formed into a Moebius strip. (They
    > have their own problems -like, which side do you lube?)
    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > You must be an old fart, like me. When I was a kid, I recall an big old
    > irrigation pump, driven by a flat belt, which actually WAS spliced into a
    > Moebius strip, to equalize the wear on both sides (or was it one side?)


    Guilty as charged.

    I always thought it was to equalize wear on the edges, not the sides,
    as the old flat belts used to bump up against one flange (if run on a
    flanged wheel, natually.) I remember seeing old steam-driven traction
    engines (no, I'm not that old that they were in daily use) that used
    convex wheels for their PTOs, but they took a lot of tending, unlike a
    pump that would be left out on its own.
     
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