Begginers Bike?

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Steve Patrick, Feb 11, 2004.

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  1. Hi All

    I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    However I need some advice.

    I guess I will mostly be cycling roads and foot paths to start with so which is the best bike for my
    £300 budget?

    Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that I can feel safe on and
    that won't fall apart under the strain.

    Any / All advice would be appreciated/

    Steve
     
    Tags:


  2. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi All
    >
    > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    > However I need some advice.
    >
    > I guess I will mostly be cycling roads and foot paths to start with so
    which
    > is the best bike for my £300 budget?
    >
    > Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that
    I
    > can feel safe on and that won't fall apart under the strain.
    >
    > Any / All advice would be appreciated/

    The standard response to this question applies:

    Get thee to several local bike shops. Test ride several bikes in your price range *and* size.
    Consider all types. Comfort, hybrid, MTB. At this price point, stay away from full susp offerings,
    *especially* department store offerings. Go back to the shops you like the best. Evaluate not only
    the bikes, but the shops and personnel as well

    Bring home the one you like the best, from the shop you like the best.

    Be aware that your butt *will * feel poorly for a while. The seat doesn't break in, your butt does.
    Contrary to the obvious, avoid wide, higly padded seats. You end up sitting on your pedalling
    muscles, instead of using them.

    Pete
     
  3. "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi All
    >
    > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    > However I need some advice.
    >
    > I guess I will mostly be cycling roads and foot paths to start with

    *ahem* I take it you mean bridleways, footpaths are off-limits to cyclists and will stir up a lot
    of trouble.

    > so which is the best bike for my £300 budget?

    Anything from a bike shop which fits properly and doesn't have rear suspension or discs - at this
    price they will be an attention grabbing ornament.

    > Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that
    I
    > can feel safe on and that won't fall apart under the strain.

    You should be pretty safe, at this price point manufacturers aren't making silly light bikes. Look
    for a full cro-moly frame instead of hi-ten steel BTW, and if a bike has a cro-moly sticker on the
    seat-tube it doesn't mean the whole bike is cro-moly - ask. On the other hand if it has a Reynolds
    853 sticker it won't rust. Allegedly.

    > Any / All advice would be appreciated/ Steve

    No worries steve, Steve.
     
  4. Steve says:

    >Anything from a bike shop which fits properly and doesn't have rear suspension or discs - at this
    >price they will be an attention grabbing ornament.

    Steve's right, Steve

    Steve ;-)
     
  5. Bomba

    Bomba Guest

    On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:56:42 +0000, Steve Patrick wrote:

    > Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that I can feel safe on and
    > that won't fall apart under the strain.

    I take it the bike will only be used on road and light tracks. If you actually start mountain biking
    with a 300 quid bike and your weight, it will disintegrate.

    --
    a.m-b FAQ: http://www.j-harris.net/bike/ambfaq.htm

    b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
     
  6. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi All
    >
    > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    > However I need some advice.
    >
    > I guess I will mostly be cycling roads and foot paths to start with so
    which
    > is the best bike for my £300 budget?
    >
    > Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that
    I
    > can feel safe on and that won't fall apart under the strain.
    >
    > Any / All advice would be appreciated/
    >
    > Steve

    I don't know what 300 pounds is in Dollars, but I'll assume its less than $1000. If you have a heavy
    upper torso, you won't want a road bike---too much weight on your palms and wrists, and if you have
    a really big gut, your gut will hit your knees, interfering with breathing when the bike has a
    "normal" set up. Not to mention, I think road cycling by itself, promotes core strength weaknesses
    which you need to deal with on your road back to fitness.

    Hybrids are no good on the road, and no good off road. They are easy to sell for lazy bike shop
    employees looking to sell a "magic carpet ride" to some clueless bastard that needs help. Kind of
    sad really.

    Mountain bikes will have you in a much better orientation on the bike for your mass. You can use a
    hard tail if you want to ride with slicks on the road, but if you do off-road trails with much in
    the way of bumps, don't listen to the little guys who think a hard tail is an acceptable ride for
    you. If you weigh 140 or 150 pounds, when the rear wheel goes over a bump, it will try to push your
    butt up and forward into the handle bars--but since you weigh so little, the inertial mass is easily
    overcome, and the rider does not tire themself out much with this type of compensating.

    Its a strength to weight ratio kind of issue, like hill climbing. Take a 225 pound velodrome
    sprinter, with 7 percent body fat----have him climb a hill against a 140 pound road racer.... Even
    though the 225 pound sprinter is far stronger, and far more muscular, his "strength to weight" ratio
    is not as good as the 140 pound road racer's. The 225 pound guy will be "smoked", bad. Put them both
    on a flat road, and if the sprinter is also a good time trialler, which is very possible, the 140
    pound hill climber can be smoked.

    The same issue exists in mountain biking, when you deal with the forces throwing you around on a
    hard tail, versus a plush full suspension bike. The heavy rider needs to avoid having to counteract
    the much larger inertial forces his increased mass will be subject to, if riding a hard tail on a
    bumpy or heavily rooted trail. The oxygen you will blow, from using all your upper body muscles to
    try to compensate for the bike pitching you around, will cut into your speed and ability to ride
    the trail, severely. I believe the better solution for you would be one of the less expensive dual
    sus mtn bikes like Diamond Back makes--they have several under $1000, and they will prevent you
    from being pitched around so much. I would not want to race one--but that is unrelated to the issue---
    you need to get to a comfort level for training, and I think this is the kind of bike that can take
    you there. Once you get down to low body fat, if you are still over 200 pounds, you will still need
    a dual suspension bike, but if you are lean and getting faster, you might want a more expensive
    full sus bike -- then....

    Regards, Dan V
     
  7. Penny S

    Penny S Guest

    Dan Volker retorted :
    > "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
    >> Hi All
    >>
    >> I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    >> However I need some advice.
    >>
    >> I guess I will mostly be cycling roads and foot paths to start with so which is the best bike for
    >> my £300 budget?
    >>
    >> Also - Im a big guy (6'3" and around 21 stone!!) so I want some thing that I can feel safe on and
    >> that won't fall apart under the strain.
    >>
    >> Any / All advice would be appreciated/
    >>
    >> Steve
    >
    > I don't know what 300 pounds is in Dollars, but I'll assume its less than $1000.

    http://www.xe.com/ucc/
     
  8. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    > >
    > > I don't know what 300 pounds is in Dollars, but I'll assume its less than $1000.
    >
    > http://www.xe.com/ucc/
    >

    Thanks Penny :)

    So If he was planning on spending $567 , then he could look for last year's Diamond Back XSL comp (
    this year it sells for $680, but shops will sell last years in his price range). I rode one of these
    from 2002, and it felt like a good bike, for a big heavy guy, trying to get back in shape.

    Regards, Dan V
     
  9. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > > >
    > > > I don't know what 300 pounds is in Dollars, but I'll assume its less than $1000.
    > >
    > > http://www.xe.com/ucc/
    > >
    >
    > Thanks Penny :)
    >
    > So If he was planning on spending $567 , then he could look for last
    year's
    > Diamond Back XSL comp ( this year it sells for $680, but shops will sell last years in his price
    > range). I rode one of these from 2002, and it felt like a good bike, for a big
    heavy
    > guy, trying to get back in shape.
    >
    > Regards, Dan V

    A link to the bike I am talking about ----
    http://www.diamondback.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=105&va=0
     
  10. Reco Diver

    Reco Diver Guest

    "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
    > > Hi All
    > >
    > > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to try cycling to help me.
    > > However I need some advice.

    <snip>

    > I think road cycling by itself, promotes core strength weaknesses which you need to deal with on
    > your road back to fitness.

    As compared to what?

    <snip>

    > Mountain bikes will have you in a much better orientation on the bike for your mass. You can use
    > a hard tail if you want to ride with slicks on the road, but if you do off-road trails with much
    > in the way of bumps, don't listen to the little guys who think a hard tail is an acceptable ride
    > for you.

    Here's a hint ... try not to listen to guys who interchange "mass" and "weight" at random.

    > If you weigh 140 or 150 pounds, when the rear wheel goes over a bump, it will try to push your
    > butt up and forward into the handle bars--but since you weigh so little, the inertial mass is
    > easily overcome, and the rider does not tire themself out much with this type of compensating.
    >
    > Its a strength to weight ratio kind of issue, like hill climbing. Take a 225 pound velodrome
    > sprinter, with 7 percent body fat----have him climb a hill against a 140 pound road racer.... Even
    > though the 225 pound sprinter is far stronger,

    Define strength. Mean or peak power output? Watt/kilogram? Functional aerobic capacity (measured in
    METS)? Or the fall back VO2 max ml/kg/min (maximal oxygen uptake in mililiters per kilogram of body
    weight per minute).

    > and far more muscular,

    Lean muscle/kg? or Type I to type II muscle fiber count?

    > his "strength to weight" ratio is not as good as the 140 pound road racer's. The 225 pound guy
    > will be "smoked", bad. Put them both on a flat road, and if the sprinter is also a good time
    > trialler, which is very possible, the 140 pound hill climber can be smoked.

    Yikes! Please tell me that you don't have a background in coaching or athletic
    performance/physiology. If the 225 lbs. rider has the anaerobic capacity of a "sprinter" and has the
    aerobic capacity to time trial, why would he lose in a hill climb?

    <snip>

    > Regards, Dan V

    Free advice is, generally, worth just what you pay for it.

    Go see a doctor before you start your new exercise program.

    Test ride as many different bikes in your price range as you can, and go with the one that feels the
    best to you.

    R
     
  11. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:db2859[email protected]...
    > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
    > > > Hi All
    > > >
    > > > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to
    try
    > > > cycling to help me. However I need some advice.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > I think road cycling by itself, promotes core strength weaknesses which you need to deal with on
    > > your road back to fitness.
    >
    > As compared to what?

    As compared to Karate, or speed skating, or mountain biking....

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > Mountain bikes will have you in a much better orientation on the bike
    for
    > > your mass. You can use a hard tail if you want to ride with slicks on
    the
    > > road, but if you do off-road trails with much in the way of bumps, don't listen to the little
    > > guys who think a hard tail is an acceptable ride
    for
    > > you.
    >
    > Here's a hint ... try not to listen to guys who interchange "mass" and "weight" at random.

    Here's a hint for you...I was just trying to help, while you are trying to "sound" like a
    coach...:)

    >
    > > If you weigh 140 or 150 pounds, when the rear wheel goes over a bump,
    it
    > > will try to push your butt up and forward into the handle bars--but
    since
    > > you weigh so little, the inertial mass is easily overcome, and the rider does not tire themself
    > > out much with this type of compensating.
    > >
    > > Its a strength to weight ratio kind of issue, like hill climbing. Take a
    225
    > > pound velodrome sprinter, with 7 percent body fat----have him climb a
    hill
    > > against a 140 pound road racer.... Even though the 225 pound sprinter is
    far
    > > stronger,
    >
    > Define strength. Mean or peak power output? Watt/kilogram? Functional aerobic capacity (measured
    > in METS)? Or the fall back VO2 max ml/kg/min (maximal oxygen uptake in mililiters per kilogram of
    > body weight per minute).

    Strength, meaning the workload in watts, that the bike rider is able to generate. In simpler terms,
    at 215 pounds, I will squat a great deal more in the gym, than most if not all, 140 pound riders could---
    that's strength. I was not referring to VO2 max, since I doubt the original poster would know or
    care much about VO2 max at this point. But since you are trying so hard to sound schooled in
    physiology, it would be hard to understand why you are not aware of the effect of body weight in a
    VO2 max calculation. For those who have not read up on this, the calculation of your oxygen
    processing ability is divided by your body weight--meaning the heavier you are, the smaller the VO2
    max number---and in fact, the harder it is to compete in an activity where a big premium is placed
    on raw aerobic power--such as hill climbing. There are very few cyclists that can weigh 225 pounds
    and still have a competitive VO2 max (competitive in cycling at a cat 1 level would be between 65
    ml/KG and 80ml/kg --just an approximation).

    And there are big, muscular cyclists that can sprint at a national level in the Velodrome, and
    still do a flat 40K time trail in 54 minutes--or less. But these same guys will never do well in a
    hill climb.

    >
    >
    > > and far more muscular,
    >
    > Lean muscle/kg? or Type I to type II muscle fiber count?

    You need to be riding more and pontificating less ;-)

    >
    > > his "strength to weight" ratio is not as good as the 140 pound road racer's. The 225 pound guy
    > > will be "smoked",
    bad.
    > > Put them both on a flat road, and if the sprinter is also a good time trialler, which is very
    > > possible, the 140 pound hill climber can be
    smoked.
    >
    > Yikes! Please tell me that you don't have a background in coaching or athletic
    > performance/physiology. If the 225 lbs. rider has the anaerobic capacity of a "sprinter" and has
    > the aerobic capacity to time trial, why would he lose in a hill climb?

    It sounds like you want desperately to be taken seriously as some kind of authority -- maybe if you
    get out on a bike with enough real racers, you'll gain some of the insights you appear to be
    looking for :)

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >
    > > Regards, Dan V
    >
    > Free advice is, generally, worth just what you pay for it.
    >
    > Go see a doctor before you start your new exercise program.
    >
    > Test ride as many different bikes in your price range as you can, and go with the one that feels
    > the best to you.
    >
    > R

    And this was good advice!!!!

    Dan V
     
  12. Reco Diver

    Reco Diver Guest

    "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Reco Diver" <reco_dive[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > "Steve Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > > binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
    > > > > Hi All
    > > > >
    > > > > I am a 35 year old guy that needs to loose weight and have decided to
    > try
    > > > > cycling to help me. However I need some advice.
    > >
    > > <snip>
    > >
    > > > I think road cycling by itself, promotes core strength weaknesses which you need to deal with
    > > > on your road back to fitness.
    > >
    > > As compared to what?
    >
    > As compared to Karate, or speed skating, or mountain biking....

    Go tell that to Glen Winkle ... More to the point, how is it that road cycling "promotes core
    strength weaknesses"?
    >
    > >
    > > <snip>
    > >
    > > > Mountain bikes will have you in a much better orientation on the bike
    > for
    > > > your mass. You can use a hard tail if you want to ride with slicks on
    > the
    > > > road, but if you do off-road trails with much in the way of bumps, don't listen to the little
    > > > guys who think a hard tail is an acceptable ride
    > for
    > > > you.
    > >
    > > Here's a hint ... try not to listen to guys who interchange "mass" and "weight" at random.
    >
    > Here's a hint for you...I was just trying to help,

    "Try is the first step to failure." H.S.

    > while you are trying to "sound" like a coach...:)

    What do you mean "sound"? I am a licensed coach in California and Arizona, and coached (while
    completeing my grad work) at NAU, one of the better NCCA mountain teams of the mid 1990's.

    >
    > >
    > > > If you weigh 140 or 150 pounds, when the rear wheel goes over a bump,
    > it
    > > > will try to push your butt up and forward into the handle bars--but
    > since
    > > > you weigh so little, the inertial mass is easily overcome, and the rider does not tire
    > > > themself out much with this type of compensating.
    > > >
    > > > Its a strength to weight ratio kind of issue, like hill climbing. Take a
    > 225
    > > > pound velodrome sprinter, with 7 percent body fat----have him climb a
    > hill
    > > > against a 140 pound road racer.... Even though the 225 pound sprinter is
    > far
    > > > stronger,
    > >
    > > Define strength. Mean or peak power output? Watt/kilogram? Functional aerobic capacity (measured
    > > in METS)? Or the fall back VO2 max ml/kg/min (maximal oxygen uptake in mililiters per kilogram
    > > of body weight per minute).
    >
    > Strength, meaning the workload in watts, that the bike rider is able to generate.

    You haven't given a "T".

    > In simpler terms, at 215 pounds, I will squat a great deal more in the gym, than most if not all,
    > 140 pound riders could---that's strength.

    That is peak output.

    > I was not referring to VO2 max, since I doubt the original poster would know or care much about
    > VO2 max at this point. But since you are trying so hard to sound schooled in physiology, it would
    > be hard to understand why you are not aware of the effect of body weight in a VO2 max calculation.

    Who said I was not aware of the effect of body weight. Why do you thik I spelled it out for you just
    in case you were slow.

    > For those who have not read up on this, the calculation of your oxygen processing ability is
    > divided by your body weight--meaning the heavier you are, the smaller the VO2 max number---and in
    > fact, the harder it is to compete in an activity where a big premium is placed on raw aerobic power--
    > such as hill climbing.

    Or time trialing.

    > There are very few cyclists that can weigh 225 pounds and still have a competitive VO2 max
    > (competitive in cycling at a cat 1 level would be between 65 ml/KG and 80ml/kg --just an
    > approximation).

    But it happens ... (Name drop) Charles Bean, California State Omnium champion, tipped the scales at
    close to two and a quarter when he won the championship (and still was a healthy ~200 when I was his
    assistant coach for two seasons).

    So why not use METS? is it becuase you are comparing athletes trained for aerobic capacity with
    athletes trained for anaerobic capacity. To put it simply, you are comparing Roger Dunkley to John
    Carlos or Glen Winkle to Marty Nothstein.

    >
    > And there are big, muscular cyclists that can sprint at a national level in the Velodrome, and
    > still do a flat 40K time trail in 54 minutes--or less. But these same guys will never do well in a
    > hill climb.

    Name names ... If you have an athlete who can go sub 1 hour, but can't climb a hill, then the
    problem is psychological not physiological.

    BTW for every big guy who can TT there is a small guy who can Kilo.

    >
    > >
    > >
    > > > and far more muscular,
    > >
    > > Lean muscle/kg? or Type I to type II muscle fiber count?
    >
    > You need to be riding more and pontificating less ;-)

    You are talking with great arm waving gestures, yet you say so little. You use abiguous terms like
    "more muscular" and "strength to weight ratio" and even when you define strength in terms of watts
    you don't give a T, leaving your definition open to interpretation (peak watts? toatl watts?).

    >
    > >
    > > > his "strength to weight" ratio is not as good as the 140 pound road racer's. The 225 pound guy
    > > > will be "smoked",
    > bad.
    > > > Put them both on a flat road, and if the sprinter is also a good time trialler, which is very
    > > > possible, the 140 pound hill climber can be
    > smoked.
    > >
    > > Yikes! Please tell me that you don't have a background in coaching or athletic
    > > performance/physiology. If the 225 lbs. rider has the anaerobic capacity of a "sprinter" and has
    > > the aerobic capacity to time trial, why would he lose in a hill climb?
    >
    > It sounds like you want desperately to be taken seriously as some kind of authority --

    Nope ... I'm not trying to be taken seriously. I was just taking another Usenet A hole to task for
    spreading ambiguous half truths.

    > maybe if you get out on a bike with enough real racers, you'll

    Spoken like a true cat 4.

    I started road racing in 1977. Started racing at Hellyer in 1979. By 1980, I was a junior 2. In 1988
    I was racing as an E/E and coaching in California. I was with AVCT (see: Hearts of Lions)
    Bridgestone until 1991 when I retired from fulltime racing and went in for a little government time.
    Picked coaching back up in 1994 and have been doing it ever since (along side some government work).

    > gain some of the insights you appear to be looking for :)

    I wasn't looking for insights, and since you so obviously have none to offer ... :)~

    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > <snip>
    > >
    > >
    > > > Regards, Dan V
    > >
    > > Free advice is, generally, worth just what you pay for it.
    > >
    > > Go see a doctor before you start your new exercise program.
    > >
    > > Test ride as many different bikes in your price range as you can, and go with the one that feels
    > > the best to you.
    > >
    > > R
    >
    > And this was good advice!!!!
    >
    > Dan V

    Oh come on now don't start agreeing now ... this leaves me no place to insert my "feelings" about
    12-lead, vital capacity, and MBC testing.

    Really, I get ppl talking about starting up riding to lose weight, or to get back into racing and
    they want to know what they "should do for cross training?", or "what's a good helmet?" "what's a
    good bike?"

    The first thing a new rider should do, if they are looking to race or improve their fitness level,
    is go talk to a doctor. Get a 12-lead if it is available. Do a VC and a MBC if they can. There is
    plenty of time to worry about single pivot vs Four-bar or who makes the best Chamois Fat.

    R
     
  13. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > > > > I think road cycling by itself, promotes core strength weaknesses which you need to deal
    > > > > with on your road back to fitness.
    > > >
    > > > As compared to what?
    > >
    > > As compared to Karate, or speed skating, or mountain biking....
    >
    > Go tell that to Glen Winkle ... More to the point, how is it that road cycling "promotes core
    > strength weaknesses"?

    Look at the postural components of fitness, and the postural issues evident on a huge number of road
    cyclists. If they all did a huge stretch routine daily, or Pilates, or karate also, they would not
    have these issues to impair their absolute fitness, but the reality is, most cyclists don't spend
    the time with the stretching they should...And remember, this discussion is more about the average
    person who wants to get back into shape--it is not specifically about members of the US Olympic team
    who have mandatory daily stretching, daily massage, etc.

    To get a bit more critical, look at what cycling alone does to most cat 3's and 2's who ONLY do
    cycling as a sport---you see a body type which looks like they are de-evolving toward "Tyranosaurus
    Rex", with a tiny upper body and vestigial arms & shoulders---their whole body is in their legs. I
    see this type of "training" most cat 3's and 2's do as overdeveloping one area, and underdeveloping
    many others. Mountain biking forces you to contract muscles all over your upper body constantly, as
    the trail pitches them around on the bike---in contrast, road cyclists go for an almost zen-like
    quiet of upper body muscles, so that they don't waste oxygen or blood sugar on muscles which are not
    adding speed to the bike--I believe good time trialers can actually "shunt" blood more directly to
    the large primary muscles of cycling, and away from muscles useless to them, such as lats, pecs,
    shoulders, etc. To whatever extent this actually happens, this will clearly NOT help in developing
    these muscles.

    And back to the bigger issue of core strength weaknesses, again, the discussion is not about Cat
    1's, or pros, but about the "average joe" who already has severe core strength weaknesses ( part of
    having a big gut :)
    . In this scenario, I see road cycling and its attendant postural and muscle specificity, to be a
    good way to make their existing imbalances worse....If they were to ADD Pilates, or karate, or a
    good Gym workout that included core strength exercises, then I'd say the road cycling was great--
    but most will NOT.

    > > >
    > > > <snip>
    > > >
    > > > > Mountain bikes will have you in a much better orientation on the
    bike
    > > for
    > > > > your mass. You can use a hard tail if you want to ride with slicks
    on
    > > the
    > > > > road, but if you do off-road trails with much in the way of bumps,
    don't
    > > > > listen to the little guys who think a hard tail is an acceptable
    ride
    > > for
    > > > > you.
    > > >
    > > > Here's a hint ... try not to listen to guys who interchange "mass" and "weight" at random.
    > >
    > > Here's a hint for you...I was just trying to help,
    >
    > "Try is the first step to failure." H.S.

    If only I had known a "god of the sports physiology universe" had been monitoring this list, I would
    not have posted--I'd have known you would have helped this person. Usenet does not typically benefit
    from this form of daily assistance from above, and as hard as this may be for you to accept, quite a
    bit of benefit DOES come from usenet related discussions. I could give you examples of where it has
    actually saved lives :)

    >
    > > For those who have not read up on this, the calculation of your oxygen processing ability is
    > > divided by your body weight--meaning the heavier
    you
    > > are, the smaller the VO2 max number---and in fact, the harder it is to compete in an activity
    > > where a big premium is placed on raw aerobic power--such as hill climbing.
    >
    > Or time trialing.

    As I'm sure you know, it is far more involved than this. The vast majority of cat 2 or cat 1, 140
    and 150 pound riders will have a significantly higher VO2 max than the 220 lb time trialler( in same
    cat) . However, many other factors will come into play in a flat 40K event----the air resistance of
    the rider is a huge portion of this, as the rider is averaging close to 30 mph. As the surface area
    increases as a square function, and the rider's volume as a cube function, the higher wattage the
    big rider can generate has "relatively less" wind resistance to overcome, per pound of bodyweight.

    Also, the big velodrome type rider can have far more anerobic capacity( which will help in an
    anerobic threshold ride, and can shave some time off the final half mile as they increase effort to
    100% HR) , they will have a much larger buffer potential for lactic acid, and they may "tolerate"
    high levels of lactate far better than a smal rider ( I'm saying "may"--its just one more issue that
    "can" come into play).

    You could probably add several other supporting factors to this list, if you cared to :)

    >
    > > There are very few cyclists that can weigh 225 pounds and still have a competitive VO2 max
    > > (competitive in cycling at a cat 1 level would be between 65 ml/KG and 80ml/kg --just an
    > > approximation).
    >
    > But it happens ... (Name drop) Charles Bean, California State Omnium champion, tipped the scales
    > at close to two and a quarter when he won the championship (and still was a healthy ~200 when I
    > was his assistant coach for two seasons).
    >
    > So why not use METS? is it becuase you are comparing athletes trained for aerobic capacity with
    > athletes trained for anaerobic capacity. To put it simply, you are comparing Roger Dunkley to John
    > Carlos or Glen Winkle to Marty Nothstein.

    Pretty much, and I like your examples :) But I'd defend this because when we are talking about the
    huge variety of body types and athletic backgrounds which this usenet group is composed of, the
    easier comparitive tool is VO2 max. I'd also add that while I liked using VO2 max as a measure of my
    own fitness when I was bike racing, kickboxing, or doing a Technical Dive at 300 feet( where we used
    custom WKPP tables for decompression, individualized to each of us by VO2 max--thanks to George
    Irvine, Dr. Bill Hamilton, and Bill Mee) , I understand that most people on the NG will not have an
    interest or even significant benefit from measuring VO2 max, Mets, or any other high end testing---
    beyond body fat testing :)

    > .
    >
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > and far more muscular,
    > > >
    > > > Lean muscle/kg? or Type I to type II muscle fiber count?
    > >
    > > You need to be riding more and pontificating less ;-)
    >
    > You are talking with great arm waving gestures, yet you say so little. You use abiguous terms like
    > "more muscular" and "strength to weight ratio" and even when you define strength in terms of watts
    > you don't give a T, leaving your definition open to interpretation (peak watts? toatl watts?).

    As if most readers here in this NG will care. More importantly, you "knew" what I was saying, but
    pedantically decided to chide me for the way I said it. I think you could have a great deal to offer
    me, and many other people on this NG, but I'd request you worry more about the final package of
    knowledge you are leaving people with----and that you consider people will have more interest if you
    speal/write in terms they understand, and with examples they can apply to themselves. Most people
    care about issues which relate to them...If a person really wanted a discussion of the relative
    benefits of Mets calculations and interpretation , over VO2 max, do you really think this is where
    they would be looking for it?
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > his "strength to weight" ratio is not as good as the 140 pound road racer's. The 225 pound
    > > > > guy will be
    "smoked",
    > > bad.
    > > > > Put them both on a flat road, and if the sprinter is also a good
    time
    > > > > trialler, which is very possible, the 140 pound hill climber can be
    > > smoked.
    > > >
    > > > Yikes! Please tell me that you don't have a background in coaching or athletic
    > > > performance/physiology. If the 225 lbs. rider has the anaerobic capacity of a "sprinter" and
    > > > has the aerobic capacity to time trial, why would he lose in a hill climb?

    I do lots of sports, and "sit on the shoulders of many giants" :) ( I have some long term friends
    who are at the tops of many fields, and my desire to compete more enjoyably, has led me to a
    reasonably good understanding of many issues in sports ( and diving) related physiology. I try not
    to sound like an authority--I am not one, but there are plenty of instances where what I call common
    sense, is all that a person needs for advice. If someone here posts for very specific training
    advice, I would point them to someone trained and gifted in this type of assistance. If they have a
    very general question, as the OP did, it is clear they don't want to pay $100 or $500 an hour to get
    an answer :)

    And I really am sick of hearing little guys who weigh 140 pounds tell big riders, that all they
    need is a hard tail, even for riding heavily rooted trails. I see this in the bike shops here is
    S Florida all the time. That is what my response to the OP was really about. How about wading
    into that one
    :)

    > >
    > > It sounds like you want desperately to be taken seriously as some kind
    of
    > > authority --
    >
    > Nope ... I'm not trying to be taken seriously. I was just taking another Usenet A hole to task for
    > spreading ambiguous half truths.
    >

    Careful, lie down with the dogs and you'll get fleas....and something tells me you're already
    scratching :)

    >
    > > maybe if you get out on a bike with enough real racers, you'll
    >
    > Spoken like a true cat 4.

    Evil, vicious and totally uncalled for ;-)

    >
    > I started road racing in 1977. Started racing at Hellyer in 1979. By 1980, I was a junior 2. In
    > 1988 I was racing as an E/E and coaching in California. I was with AVCT (see: Hearts of Lions)
    > Bridgestone until 1991 when I retired from fulltime racing and went in for a little government
    > time. Picked coaching back up in 1994 and have been doing it ever since (along side some
    > government work).

    Nice background. If you were'nt using the hotmail address, I might have given you the benefit of the
    doubt on your first post, but as you should know, there is an awful lot of masquerading going on
    under the anonymity of hotmail faking.

    > > > >
    > > > Go see a doctor before you start your new exercise program.
    > > >
    > > > Test ride as many different bikes in your price range as you can, and go with the one that
    > > > feels the best to you.
    > > >

    > >
    >
    > The first thing a new rider should do, if they are looking to race or improve their fitness level,
    > is go talk to a doctor. Get a 12-lead if it is available. Do a VC and a MBC if they can. There is
    > plenty of time to worry about single pivot vs Four-bar or who makes the best Chamois Fat.
    >
    > R

    Well...this NG "is" really more about arguing the merits of single pivot versus 4 bar---but its also
    about arguing anything, so if you don't get too over-technical, you can probably create plenty of
    arguments here :)

    Dan V
     
  14. Reco Diver

    Reco Diver Guest

    "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    <snip>

    > I'd also add that while I liked using VO2 max as a measure of my own fitness when I was bike
    > racing, kickboxing, or doing a Technical Dive at 300 feet( where we used custom WKPP tables for
    > decompression, individualized to each of us by VO2 max--thanks to George Irvine, Dr. Bill
    > Hamilton, and Bill Mee) , I understand that most people on the NG will not have an interest or
    > even significant benefit from measuring VO2 max, Mets, or any other high end testing--- beyond
    > body fat testing :)

    I'll be damned it is DIR Dan Volker.

    You and I know many of the same people .... You through WKPP and me through SCRU. Go figure, those
    pushing the envelope tend to be so far inland.

    <snip>

    >> > >
    > > > You need to be riding more and pontificating less ;-)
    > >
    > > You are talking with great arm waving gestures, yet you say so little. You use abiguous terms
    > > like "more muscular" and "strength to weight ratio" and even when you define strength in terms
    > > of watts you don't give a T, leaving your definition open to interpretation (peak watts? toatl
    > > watts?).
    >
    >
    > As if most readers here in this NG will care. More importantly, you "knew" what I was saying, but
    > pedantically decided to chide me for the way I said it.

    Absolutely.

    > I think you could have a great deal to offer me, and many other people on this NG, but I'd request
    > you worry more about the final package of knowledge you are leaving people with----and that you
    > consider people will have more interest if you speal/write in terms they understand, and with
    > examples they can apply to themselves. Most people care about issues which relate to them...If a
    > person really wanted a discussion of the relative benefits of Mets calculations and interpretation
    > , over VO2 max, do you really think this is where they would be looking for it?

    You'd be amazed who reads this group.

    > > Spoken like a true cat 4.
    >
    > Evil, vicious and totally uncalled for ;-)
    >
    > >
    > > I started road racing in 1977. Started racing at Hellyer in 1979. By 1980, I was a junior 2. In
    > > 1988 I was racing as an E/E and coaching in California. I was with AVCT (see: Hearts of Lions)
    > > Bridgestone until 1991 when I retired from fulltime racing and went in for a little government
    > > time. Picked coaching back up in 1994 and have been doing it ever since (along side some
    > > government work).
    >
    > Nice background. If you were'nt using the hotmail address, I might have given you the benefit of
    > the doubt on your first post, but as you should know, there is an awful lot of masquerading going
    > on under the anonymity of hotmail faking.

    At one time I used my "normal" account ... then I was accused of "advertising." So now I use a genero-
    hotmail account. Usenet is nameless and faceless. So now I am just another jerk with a bad nick.
    >
    > > > > >
    > > > > Go see a doctor before you start your new exercise program.
    > > > >
    > > > > Test ride as many different bikes in your price range as you can, and go with the one that
    > > > > feels the best to you.
    > > > >
    >
    > > >
    > >
    > > The first thing a new rider should do, if they are looking to race or improve their fitness
    > > level, is go talk to a doctor. Get a 12-lead if it is available. Do a VC and a MBC if they
    > > can. There is plenty of time to worry about single pivot vs Four-bar or who makes the best
    > > Chamois Fat.
    > >
    > > R
    >
    > Well...this NG "is" really more about arguing the merits of single pivot versus 4 bar---but its
    > also about arguing anything, so if you don't get too over-technical, you can probably create
    > plenty of arguments here :)
    >
    > Dan V

    Over Technical ???? Me ???? Never ....

    But I do have some opinions on the merits (?) of the Mark 12, Bail Out bottles, and pure O2
    stops ....

    R
     
  15. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:db28[email protected]...
    > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > I'd also add that while I liked using VO2 max as a measure of my own
    fitness
    > > when I was bike racing, kickboxing, or doing a Technical Dive at 300
    feet(
    > > where we used custom WKPP tables for decompression, individualized to
    each
    > > of us by VO2 max--thanks to George Irvine, Dr. Bill Hamilton, and Bill
    Mee)
    > > , I understand that most people on the NG will not have an interest or
    even
    > > significant benefit from measuring VO2 max, Mets, or any other high end testing--- beyond body
    > > fat testing :)
    >
    > I'll be damned it is DIR Dan Volker.
    >
    > You and I know many of the same people .... You through WKPP and me through SCRU. Go figure, those
    > pushing the envelope tend to be so far inland.
    >

    I am definitely a long way from "good" mountain biking. For the tech dives, George, Bill and I used
    to dive off Jupiter and Pompano, on some incredible sites--these being local to us. Wakulla and the
    other caves were a huge inland journey, to be sure. And now I am hearing there is some decent
    mountain biking near Wakulla! Hmmmm.

    > <snip>
    > > >
    > > Well...this NG "is" really more about arguing the merits of single pivot versus 4 bar---but its
    > > also about arguing anything, so if you don't get
    too
    > > over-technical, you can probably create plenty of arguments here :)
    > >
    > > Dan V
    >
    > Over Technical ???? Me ???? Never ....
    >
    > But I do have some opinions on the merits (?) of the Mark 12, Bail Out bottles, and pure O2
    > stops ....
    >
    > R

    I got pretty tired arguing for DIR on rec.scuba, and I'd be shocked if even one other mountain biker
    shared an interest in tech or deep cave diving......But :) ...... I would need to have a really
    good reason to use any rebreather---even including the Halcyon--there is just too much of a "pre-
    flight checkout" .....kind of like turning a pseudo recreational dive into flying a 747. My area has
    always been deep ocean, and doubles and stages have just been so much easier and safer. I'm sure you
    know the bailout issue for deep cave penetrations, and if you look at the new Halcyon rebreather, it
    looks more like a stage bottle itself
    :)
    I can't guess your issue with bailout bottles, unless its that you don't like to have the hassle of
    a big bunch of them needing to be spread around a big penetration. The pure O2 stop at 20 feet is
    pretty much optional---I don't generally want it or need it--maybe if I had done a 270 for 24, run a
    30 minute deco, a short surface interval, and then done another dive to 270, but this is more of a
    special circumstance scenario. Because O2 is a vasoconstrictor, on a normal dive to 270 for 23
    minutes, I'll switch to 50/50 at 70 feet, and stay on this to the surface. Alot of the guys who feel
    they "need" O2 at 20, actually get some bubbling the moment they hit the O2 at 20--due to the vasoconstriction---
    and after 15 minutes of this, these and most other bubbles have begun resolving, but it basically
    just adds time to the deco I don't care to add. And when I've been spearfishing, the deco weenies
    want me out of the water with my fish as soon as possible :)

    Regards, Dan V
     
  16. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > I'd also add that while I liked using VO2 max as a measure of my own
    fitness
    > > when I was bike racing, kickboxing, or doing a Technical Dive at 300
    feet(
    > > where we used custom WKPP tables for decompression, individualized to
    each
    > > of us by VO2 max--thanks to George Irvine, Dr. Bill Hamilton, and Bill
    Mee)
    > > , I understand that most people on the NG will not have an interest or
    even
    > > significant benefit from measuring VO2 max, Mets, or any other high end testing--- beyond body
    > > fat testing :)
    >
    > I'll be damned it is DIR Dan Volker.
    >
    > You and I know many of the same people .... You through WKPP and me through SCRU. Go figure, those
    > pushing the envelope tend to be so far inland.
    >
    > <snip>

    What name do you go by in the diving world ? ....And as long as your here, maybe I can get some good
    ideas from you on my girlfriend's training ( she is training for the Masters Nationals this year,
    and taking this very seriously).

    Regards, Dan V
     
  17. Reco Diver

    Reco Diver Guest

    "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    You pretty much nailed the topics.

    <snip>
    >
    > What name do you go by in the diving world ? ....And as long as your here, maybe I can get some
    > good ideas from you on my girlfriend's training ( she is training for the Masters Nationals this
    > year, and taking this very seriously).
    >
    > Regards, Dan V

    Dan Lenihan (scru), John Brooks (scru, retired so I hear) and Pat Horning (GLCA) would best remember
    me as "the guppy". I kid you not. In 1998 I was doing an evidence collection job, two days of all
    day, shallow, zero vis, feelin' through the mud work. At the end of the second day, I'm charging
    tanks and I hear the I.C., Chris Pergiel (now at Kenai)who is looking at the assignment board, say
    "Anybody know the gups real name?" ~20 people in the fire cache and dead silence. So the send a
    seasonal into the the dive locker to ask my name, and I sent her down to check the name on my
    mailbox. She comes back a few minutes later and says "His mailbox says 'The Guppy'."

    Now if you were to search out my grad work, you would find it under thesis and dissertations at NAU.

    K.E. Frisch Spatial Distribution of Drowning Incidents at Glen Canyon National Recreation Area: 1969-
    1999. Applications of GIS in Search and Recovery.

    As for coaching, I can start with the most important thing. BEWARE OF MENTAL BURNOUT. Anyone can
    count their cals, take thier tests, get enough sleep, do the "right" workouts, but competition is
    won on mental toughness/sharpness .... and a more often than not luck. The benefits of a good coach
    is not the progam, but that he/she can veiw the athlete objectively and determine if the workouts
    are leading towards the goal. Beyond that a good coach helps prevent burn out and helps assure a top
    state of arousal when it counts. (the snickering can begin here). . .

    More to the point: What kind of a program is she on right now? Or since she is probably in the
    middle of or near the end of base work ... what kind of a program is she planning to follow?

    R or K or whatever.
     
  18. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Reco Diver" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    >
    > As for coaching, I can start with the most important thing. BEWARE OF MENTAL BURNOUT. Anyone can
    > count their cals, take thier tests, get enough sleep, do the "right" workouts, but competition is
    > won on mental toughness/sharpness .... and a more often than not luck. The benefits of a good
    > coach is not the progam, but that he/she can veiw the athlete objectively and determine if the
    > workouts are leading towards the goal. Beyond that a good coach helps prevent burn out and helps
    > assure a top state of arousal when it counts. (the snickering can begin here). . .
    >
    > More to the point: What kind of a program is she on right now? Or since she is probably in the
    > middle of or near the end of base work ... what kind of a program is she planning to follow?

    > R or K or whatever.

    R or K :) Sandra has been doing her weekend training with a friend who is being coached by Kevin
    Livingston...and during the week she has been concentrating on high spin ( averaging over 92 on 3 to
    4 hour ride---meaning much of the time a cadence of 105). November to January she did squats and
    other work in the gym 2 to 3 days per week, with bike rides almost exclusively in zone 2 with good
    spin. Last year we decided she was mashing big gears, and this year we would fix this. She went to
    the Nationals in Kentucky last year, and was extremely strong in the crit ( which was supposed to be
    only a warm-up for her, as the road race was the real interest---however, an asthma attack on road
    race morning, killed this event for her last year...On our return from nationals, we found a top
    allergist, who determined the asthma was triggered by sinusitis, and put her on Advair after a brief
    period of antibiotics. She has had no asthma since.)

    Since the first week of January, Sandra has been doing intervals on Tuesdays---some weeks she did 30
    sec on, 30 off crit type intervals, and other weeks she did 2 minute on, 4 off ( and some times 2 on
    and 2 off) to develop more sheer speed for fast breakaways or for time trials. Each week since
    January has concentrated most of the 5-6 days per week with zone 2 spinning ( except for Tuesdays).
    Monday is always her day off. Most recently, yesterday, she began doing 10 minute intervals/time
    trial efforts--hour warm up, 10 minute time trial, 20 minutes easy, then one more 10 minute time
    trial, then hour warm down at high spin and zone 2. Cadence during 10 minute interval was high 80's
    to low 90's, and we are thinking that she might need to keep it higher next week. Her max attainable
    heart rate is 193, and the highest she was able to hit in the 10 minute time trial was 175.

    Since January, she has also been mountain biking with me on Sundays, sometimes after a 40 mile zone
    2 ride, sometimes instead of her road ride. In the last few weeks, she has also been mountain biking
    with me at Quiet Waters ( a local mountain bike trail which tends to push her into zone 4 and 5 for
    most of her 2 fast laps ( after a slower warm up lap--lap is 7 miles). She has elevated HR partly
    due to the constant sprint efforts the technical nature of this trail requires, and partly due to
    her high adrenalin and "fear intervals" on the parts which are scary for her :)

    In her normal riding, she can perform a big effort, and her recovery is amazingly rapid. Certainly
    the mountain biking assists in this type of fitness. I've been trying to convince her that mountain
    biking is a good form of cross training, both for core strength and for the quick recovery training
    that the constant efforts, with low rest, that Mtb Biking here requires. I may get her to enter a
    few mountain bike races, if I can find courses which are very non-technical, which can best leverage
    her road racing fitness. I will also try to find some races in North Fl, Georgia, and the Carolinas
    in which she can do a crit or road race, and then mountain bike afterwards on an awesome trail (
    typical women's races are so short she would need to train more after the race anyway;-)

    Her resting pulse is 43, and again max is about 193. She has been training with a Vetta V 100
    computer ( shows HR, cadence, speed, etc), and she will be switching soon to a Polar 720i with
    speed and cadence--and computer download of data. As soon as she does, she could use the PC coach
    software we have to automatically log her workouts, as opposed to the way she has been using a
    written diary so far.

    Right now, she is trying to "leverage" all the high cadence and zone 2 work, and transition this
    into race pace workloads---this is why I suggested she begin doing the 10 minute time trials on
    Tuesdays. She wants to begin doing some of the fast local rides very soon--so far her friend,
    coached by Livingston, has been avoiding that in an effort to build up a larger aerobic base first,
    with 4 and 5 hour, zone 2 rides on weekends instead.

    And I want her to mountain bike with me at least one day per weekend, since being a couple means
    doing things together ( she wants this too, but she also wants to make sure she gets the right
    training mix each weekend to succeed in the nationals this year)....She gets the ability to train
    like a fully sponsored pro---I work, and there is no reason for her to have to, so she has nearly
    unlimited training and sleep time. And she has Suntitle as a sponsor--brand new Klein bike, and all
    expenses paid for any race--even nationals.

    So what do you think?

    Regards, Dan V
     
  19. Bill Wheeler

    Bill Wheeler Guest

  20. Dan Volker

    Dan Volker Guest

    "Bill Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:08:06 -0500, "Dan Volker" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > >So what do you think?
    > >
    > >Regards, Dan V
    >
    > Two words and a like for you
    >
    > Duo-Lux http://www.sevencycles.com/bikes/pricemountain.html
    >
    > She'll thank you later wink, wink
    >
    > Peace, Bill
    >

    Bill, Really nice bikes, but I just got her a Trek Liquid 25 for Christmas....She is going to have
    to ride it at least for a while....;-)

    Regards, Dan V
     
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