bell really needed in Manhattan?



B

Bob

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> =v= Read this:
>
> http://www.cars-suck.org/blog/2005/11/many_a_true_word_spoken_in_jes.html
>
> My take is that, unless you are on a greenway or unless you've got
> one of those really loud bells that sounds like an old phone ringing,
> nobody's going to hear you in Manhattan. On the other hands, cops
> do their stupid ticket blitzes from time to time over ********
> violations like that.
> <_Jym_>


I read the blog and it seems to equate "cylist" with "Critical Mass
rider" so I have to ask... how many riders do you know that have been
ticketed for these "******** violations" when they were *not* part of a
Critical Mass ride and intentionally acting like idiots? (I use the
qualifier "and" because not all of them are acting the fool.)
Is the blogger's objection that non-CMers ride everyday under the
police radar and don't get ticketed? Complaining that not enough
cyclists outside their group get ticketed seems an odd position for any
cycling advocacy group but then any group that defines itself solely by
what they oppose- cars-suck.org for example- isn't really an advocacy
group I suppose.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
D

Dane Buson

Guest
landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
> which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
> and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,


Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
a reasonably pace.

> are not going to do a thing to promote more ridership. Of course there
> exists a right to assemble, but there's no right in the American
> constitution to tie up traffic and cause motorists to idle and use more
> gas, to make some sort of bizarre political point. That's right
> Massers--your little displays of conceit actually cause more emissions.


To mangle an old phrase, there's more than one road to Rome. Mass
never really had a huge amount of appeal to me, and obviously not to
you. But some people get quite a bit out of it, and probably ride more
as a result.

Do some people use it as an excuse to be jerks? I'm sure they do. On
the other hand, they'd probably be out being wankers elsewhere if they
weren't there.

As to tying up traffic, I don't really have much sympathy with car
traffic jams. If it wasn't mass there would something else next week
tying up traffic. [1] If one doesn't want to be stuck in traffic, one
should probably give up driving entirely and move somewhere with a good
urban rail system.

[1] I live near two stadiums. I know all about event traffic.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"Remember kids, don't do crack, it's a ghetto drug"
- Bob Roberts
 
L

landotter

Guest
Dane Buson wrote:
> landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
> > which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
> > and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,

>
> Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
> Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
> affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
> interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
> courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
> a reasonably pace.


Chicago's Mass is what it was. I was embarrassed by it to be honest. It
brought traffic to a halt in the center of the city and really wasted a
lot of motorists time. Tried it twice to see if I experienced a bad
one. Nope, just as bad as the first. The real dickheads are probably
only 10% of the riders, but the damage they do to cyclists rep is
amazing. I hope the cops find a way to prevent future CMs, as they're
really an illegal parade. Folks can meet, greet, and admire bikes in a
more respectful way than riding around with a bionic-hippie's sense of
self entitlement.
 
C

Claire Petersky

Guest
"Dane Buson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> This lack of bike enforcement has spawned groups like Critical Mass,
>> which are the worst bicycling advocates imaginable. Defiance, anarchy,
>> and arrogance, the three most common things experienced on a CM ride,

>
> Your cities Critical Mass much have a much different character than
> Seattles I suppose. Critical Mass here seems to be a pretty mellow
> affair with lots of people chatting, people dragging out odd and
> interesting bikes, and generally having fun. The police are pretty
> courteous too, and mostly just want the mass to move out of downtown at
> a reasonably pace.


And I wonder how much one affects the other. In other words, has the mellow
police response to CM meant that those who are attracted to CM are similarly
mellow? And the hard-core response of the NYC police means that the only
folks who would want to come to CM are defiant and anarchistic?

> As to tying up traffic, I don't really have much sympathy with car
> traffic jams.


Uh huh. Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is it so
evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when cars do it?

Also, today I realized that one of the valuable services I provide by biking
is traffic calming. I guess that's another way to say, "creating traffic
jams". Most of my non-trail commute is on minor arterials and city streets
where the speed limit is 25 mph. By pedaling along, I am performing a
valuable service to the residents of that street and many of the other road
users by slowing down drivers. Even if I'm on a wide curb lane or shoulder,
they'll often slow to pass.


--
Warm Regards,


Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
 
B

Bill Sornson

Guest
Claire Petersky wrote:

> Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is
> it so evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when
> cars do it?


Because car drivers don't /intentionally/ disrupt traffic flows and cause
delays.

How would you feel about car drivers purposely blocking a charity bike ride
event or century just to make a point about rude or dangerous riders
encountered now and then?
 
B

Bob

Guest
Claire Petersky wrote:


> Uh huh. Cars create CMs and cork intersections all the time. Why is it so
> evil when bikes do it, something we all have to accept when cars do it?


By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
when that traffic has a green light? Personally, it doesn't matter to
me whether the corkers are on two wheels or four. Unless they are:
1- emergency vehicles,
2- a funeral procession,
3- a parade with the proper permits
I don't excuse or accept their behavior whether they are in a car or on
a bike and I don't know any reasonable person that does.
If by "corking" you're referring to the inconsiderate jerks that think
there's some unwritten "10 second rule" governing left turns ("The
light turned red less than 10 seconds ago so I can still enter the
intersection and make my left turn. Those people with the green will
just have to wait."), when I was in patrol I ticketed them every chance
I had even if it meant making a u-turn to go after them.

>
> Also, today I realized that one of the valuable services I provide by biking
> is traffic calming. I guess that's another way to say, "creating traffic
> jams". Most of my non-trail commute is on minor arterials and city streets
> where the speed limit is 25 mph. By pedaling along, I am performing a
> valuable service to the residents of that street and many of the other road
> users by slowing down drivers. Even if I'm on a wide curb lane or shoulder,
> they'll often slow to pass.
>


Careful, Claire. You're making it sound as if not every driver is a
homicidal maniac out there searching for a cyclist to run over.
Implying that could get you labeled a nutcase. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
D

Don Wiss

Guest
On 5 Sep 2006 18:47:51 -0700, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:

>By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
>intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
>when that traffic has a green light?


I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
 
E

Earl Bollinger

Guest
"Don Wiss" <[email protected]_spam.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 5 Sep 2006 18:47:51 -0700, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>By "corking", do you mean the drivers in your area routinely and
>>intentionally block the cross traffic at a controlled intersection even
>>when that traffic has a green light?

>
> I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
> can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
> stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
> gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).


I think the problem is there is a small percentage (2%?) of the CM folks who
are intentionally out there looking for trouble.
They carry knives or other weapons, and if anyone dares to cross their
imaginary line, they explode into anger and mayhem.
I see them as deliberately blocking traffic and impeding the traffic flow,
in order to get an aggressive driver to lose their temper or patience.
These two percenters tend to use the rest of the "more or less innocent" CM
riders as cover. Almost like rioters hiding in a mob.
Most cities have ordinances or laws about parades and licenses or permits
are needed to stage such events.
Usually CM folks can't get permits so they usually ignore the laws. Thus it
automatically sets the scene for mass ticketing and arrests.
It hasn't happened yet, but it is only a matter of time before some idiot
motorist loses their temper and runs down a number of CM cyclists and kills
someone.
When that happens the CM groups will become paraiahs as far as all the city
governments are concerned.

I feel the CM groups should have come to a agreement with the cities and get
permits as needed and have police and others there to control traffic for a
more safe and orderly event.
Sort of like a downtown organized ride charity event.
Dallas Texas has a orderly ride like this once a year in the spring. The 40
mile ride goes all over the downtown and surrounding area. It is a nice fun
event and motorists get to see several thousand cyclists on the roads and
streets too.
That would allow for a much more positive outcome between cyclists and
motorists.
 
B

Bob

Guest
Don Wiss wrote:

>
> I see it all the time. The light is about to change to red. They know that
> can't make it across the intersection. So then pull into the middle and
> stop, blocking the perpendicular traffic. Now, of course, there are
> gridlock laws against this, but they are never enforced in NYC.
>


There being a certain percentage of jerks in any population, I don't
doubt that happens sometimes. What I doubt is that it happens *all* of
the time and the offending drivers are *never* ticketed although I can
understand that it might seem that way. We're getting far afield
though.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
K

Kristian M Zoerhoff

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> It hasn't happened yet, but it is only a matter of time before some idiot
> motorist loses their temper and runs down a number of CM cyclists and kills
> someone.


This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:

<http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
OR
<http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email protected]
(_)/ (_)
 
B

Bob

Guest
Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>
> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>
> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
> OR
> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>



Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
that the information provided is slanted at best.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
Bob wrote:
> Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>>
>> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
>> OR
>> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>

>
>
> Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
> occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
> posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
> attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
> that the information provided is slanted at best.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>

I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
political favors under the table going on there.
I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
Bill Baka
 
B

Bob

Guest
Bill Baka wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
> >> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
> >>
> >> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
> >> OR
> >> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>

> >
> >
> > Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
> > occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
> > posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
> > attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
> > that the information provided is slanted at best.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bob Hunt
> >

> I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
> supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
> pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
> with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
> arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
> and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
> adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
> way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
> before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
> I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
> Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
> political favors under the table going on there.
> I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
> Bill Baka


Based on your post I think it's safe to assume that- without having
read or heard anything else about the incident or viewing the videotape
(if the blogger was referring to the same incident I'm recalling it was
caught on videotape)- you're ready to accept as gospel one person's
version of events. Of course, I could be wrong since that opinion is
based on just *one* source of information.
BTW, the current Daley is Daley #2. I haven't heard of any #3, etcetera
yet. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>>>> This did happen in Chicago recently. No one died, but things got really ugly:
>>>>
>>>> <http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?A2=ind0604&L=CHI-CRIT-MASS&D=0&I=-3&P=50304>
>>>> OR
>>>> <http://tinyurl.com/fc8vp>
>>>
>>> Something *did* happen on April 28 but it's open to debate if what
>>> occurred is what the link claims. Whether the source is a bike forum
>>> posting from an involved cyclist or a quote from a driver's defense
>>> attorney proclaiming his client's innocence, it's important to remember
>>> that the information provided is slanted at best.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Bob Hunt
>>>

>> I just read that and it reminds me of the corrupt police that were
>> supposed to be cleaned out years ago. It's to much bother to chase the
>> pickup driver so arrest the victim. All the witnesses should join in
>> with him to file a criminal complaint against the cop(s) involved in the
>> arrest for false arrest, miscarriage of justice, abuse of power (badge),
>> and also a lawsuit for punitive damages. Those cops need an attitude
>> adjustment. My grandfather was a Captain in the Chicago political system
>> way back in the 30's and 40's, and I never knew what that meant, but
>> before he died I heard some not too good stories about the system.
>> I mean, what other city in the world, has, by default, a mayor named
>> Daley. Richard 1, 2, 3, etc. There has to be a lot of nepotism and
>> political favors under the table going on there.
>> I was born in Chicago so this hits a nerve.
>> Bill Baka

>
> Based on your post I think it's safe to assume that- without having
> read or heard anything else about the incident or viewing the videotape
> (if the blogger was referring to the same incident I'm recalling it was
> caught on videotape)- you're ready to accept as gospel one person's
> version of events. Of course, I could be wrong since that opinion is
> based on just *one* source of information.
> BTW, the current Daley is Daley #2. I haven't heard of any #3, etcetera
> yet. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>

Bob,
It was Daley 'x' when I lived there in the 50's and every time I have
ever asked it was a Daley. #3.Would you notice?
1. I have run into asshole patrol cops in both northern and southern
California, abusing the authority their badge confers on them, and I see
no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
run driver just re-enforces my point.
One of my references that is very well documented is the 1968 Democratic
convention, although it did happen when I was in California. Some police
I have approached just for information were hostile to me here in
California, as if I was interrupting their ticket stake out. Once around
1982 I had a car stolen (Down payment and I never saw the guy again) and
it was found in San Jose after being in multiple collisions. When I went
to the S.J.P.D. headquarters I asked to see the car to determine whether
to tell them to junk it or to get it out. The desk officer refused and
when I asked to see his supervisor as to why he threatened me with
immediate arrest for arguing with a cop. Ever wonder why they were
called PIGS? Some of them have no business even giving out parking tickets.
Bill Baka
 
B

Bob

Guest
Bill Baka wrote:

> .... I see
> no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
> for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
> run driver just re-enforces my point.


You continue to miss and unintentionally reinforce my point. The
blogger's assertions/opinions as to what happened are just one version
of events and should be viewed with a grain of salt just as the
involved driver's version should. The accounts of even presumably
unbiased witnesses to any event often differ. That's why it's best to
withhold judgement of any disputed event until one is familiar with as
many versions of the event as practical. It's called being neutral and
fair. In the present instance, you've leapt to a conclusion based
entirely on the assertions of *one* involved party. IOW, you're doing
exactly what you accuse the cops of- taking sides based on personal
bias. You'd make a lousy cop and a worse judge.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> .... I see
>> no reason why Chicago should be different now. Arresting the bicyclist
>> for demanding the cop do his duty and chase after an intentional hit and
>> run driver just re-enforces my point.

>
> You continue to miss and unintentionally reinforce my point. The
> blogger's assertions/opinions as to what happened are just one version
> of events and should be viewed with a grain of salt just as the
> involved driver's version should. The accounts of even presumably
> unbiased witnesses to any event often differ. That's why it's best to
> withhold judgement of any disputed event until one is familiar with as
> many versions of the event as practical. It's called being neutral and
> fair. In the present instance, you've leapt to a conclusion based
> entirely on the assertions of *one* involved party. IOW, you're doing
> exactly what you accuse the cops of- taking sides based on personal
> bias. You'd make a lousy cop and a worse judge.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>

Bob,
I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
commuter in my car.
Corrupt.
I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
the officer demanded he mark is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
Corrupt #2.
When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
jail time.
Corrupt D.A.
Example of corrupt judge and police together.
Locally, we had a judge who would hand down as much jail time as
possible to anyone who came before him. Off work he was one of the worst
offenders, yet every time he was pulled over the local police would
either escort him home, or drive him home, free gratis. It was well
known among the locals and he is no longer a judge, and I haven't
checked why.
Corrupt Judge and P.D. (s).
Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.
You are too isolated by being part of the system.
Real life has told me that the "LAW" is as self serving as most politicians.
Bill Baka
 
B

Bob

Guest
Bill Baka wrote:

> Bob,
> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.


---snip---

> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.


> Bill Baka


So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
Bob wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.

>
> ---snip---
>
>> Do you actually think I would agree with the guy for no good reason.

>
>> Bill Baka

>
> So you're biased in favor of believing that all cops, judges, and
> prosecutors are bad. When did bias become a "good reason"?
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt
>

Touche,
But you are probably biased by being part of the system. I am not bad
mouthing you, but sometimes when you are in the middle of it and
isolated from what goes on outside your turf, you really don't know.
I have seen some very good officers, but way too many that think the
badge and gun makes them God.
Bill Baka
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>> Bill Baka wrote:


>Bob,
>I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>commuter in my car.
>Corrupt.


So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
impossibilty in court?

>I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>the officer demanded he mark is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>Corrupt #2.
>When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>jail time.
>Corrupt D.A.


This is far fetched and stretches the imagination. If this alleged
incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
oath in court.
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:43:56 GMT, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Bill Baka wrote:

>
>> Bob,
>> I have personally experienced bad cops and bad judges AND bad D.A.'s.
>> I have been given totally bogus traffic tickets by a group of cops
>> setting up a speed trap in a place where it was physically impossible to
>> speed. They had each other to back themselves up and I was a lone
>> commuter in my car.
>> Corrupt.

>
> So you couldn't come back with a camera to detail this alleged
> impossibilty in court?


I did that once when a cop singled me out of a line of cars making a
left turn to go to a junk yard in 1966. That was standard practice and
happened all day long. The cop hinted (under his breath) that he wanted
to make sure to get teenagers to give them respect for the law. It had
the opposite effect. I stood out there and took a whole roll of picture
of cars, sometimes convoys, crossing that line and the judge refused to
look at them, telling me that, "So what, they were breaking the law,
too". Then why the hell did that sorry assed excuse for a cop single me
out? Because I was a teen and least likely to get a lawyer. When I said
not guilty and I wanted a trial with a lawyer he said "sorry, you can't
have a trial over a traffic ticket so I find you 'Guilty'".
I sure gained a LOT of respect for the law that day. Like ****.
>
>> I have been arrested for DUI even though I was neither drunk nor even
>> driving. When I demanded a blood test the technician said "clean" but
>> the officer demanded he mark is as a positive. Santa Clara city P.D.
>> Corrupt #2.
>> When I went to court on this the D.A. said he would accept a plea
>> bargain for "Dry reckless" but if I plead not guilty he could guarantee
>> jail time.
>> Corrupt D.A.

>
> This is far fetched and stretches the imagination.


Everything stretches your feeble imagination, doofus.

If this alleged
> incident occurred, the drill would be to get the tech to testify under
> oath in court.


Requiring a lawyer, most of whom want about $2,000 up front just to talk
to you, much less do the leg work for a traffic ticket. If I had $5K to
blow I might have, but that was during one of my work droughts. Soon
after I got a much better job up in the wine country and never saw
another Santa Clara cop. I won't drive down there now unless somebody I
know dies or I have a 6 figure job offer, High 6 figure.
Bill Baka

>