Best 700c x 25c road wheels

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ayden Hailey, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Ayden Hailey

    Ayden Hailey New Member

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    What are the best 700c X 25c Road Wheels?
     
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  2. Clarence288

    Clarence288 New Member

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    Panaracer Gravel king 32 I Recommended..
     
  3. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    Are you looking for wheels or tires?

    Either way, there is no absolute "best", as there are lots of good products for various purposes. You need to be much more specific if you hope to get useful feedback.
     
  4. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Correct, there is no one best tire or wheel, it all depends on how and where you will be riding you bike, and how much you want to spend. When you say best that makes the price of the wheel reach nosebleed levels and I don't think you want to go there. Do first give us a max budget, then how and where you'll be riding, it may help a little to know your weight.

    For example post #2 said Panaracer Gravel king 32's, that's great if you are riding on gravel, but if your rim you have uses 25c tire I seriously doubt a 32 will fit unless you got the absolute narrowest tire (a 25c) on that rim and you have the spacing in your frame/fork and brake clearance for a 32. A huge vast majority of road bikes will not accept any tire larger than a 28c so that leaves out the 32 recommendation.
     
  5. cyclintom

    cyclintom Well-Known Member

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    For best road tires I tend to lean towards Vittoria. The high end Continentals don't have any directional stability and you have to always watch your line.

    For wheels I am starting to lean back to aluminum rims. If you have deep carbon wheels with disk brakes they will last a lifetime but if they have rim brakes they have the same wear characteristics and my Pro-lite 40 mm deep aluminum wheels actually weigh the same as the 55 mm deep carbon wheels. I use cheap Chinese carbon wheels because there simply is no advantage to expensive American made ones.

    The spoke bed on carbon wheels is irregular because laying something like that up cannot be carefully controlled like aluminum. This means that the spoke tensions on these wheels always varies all over the map to have a straight and round wheel. I do not like that although it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

    Chinese wheels often have those flat plate "aero" spokes and spoke tension meters do NOT read correctly on those. So a lot of them have spoke tension WAY too low and the wheels will flex this way and that under riding loads. This makes "from the factory" wheels dangerous as hell.

    If you take these into a shop they will put a spoke tension meter on them and tell you they are OK. But they are not. You have to have at least twice the tension for the wheels to act properly. This isn't a problem with the Chinese wheels with tapered aero spokes or round spokes since the meter reads correctly on those.

    As for the argument for and against tubeless - it sounds like a very good idea and I've been using them for over a year. But the tires are so damned expensive that it just isn't worth it. Install gatorskins on your training bike and you're very unlikely to get a flat. And they mount and unmount a hell of a lot easier. And you should get clincher rims instead of "tubeless clinchers".

    I got caught out in a rainstorm and picked up a piece of glass in my Continental GP5000TLR and it cut a hole too large to seal so I had to install a tube in the tire anyway. And the rather small cut caused a stupid bulge in the tire showing that the cord had been cut and the tire have to be thrown away. Plus you have to be King Kong to mount the tire back on.

    If using tubeless tires be sure and ONLY use thin plastic rim tape. If you use the normal rim tapes they absorb way too much sealant. But even worse - the tires are so tight normally that this heavier rim tape makes mounting a tire almost impossible on the road if you need to install a tube. And since you have to carry a tube anyway why are you going through this pain to begin with?
     
  6. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    thank you Cycle Tom for a very sane post, keep it up and we can be buds.

    The only exception I took with what you said, and this only a personal opinion and yours if fine if that's been your experience, is the Conti tires not holding a line, I've used Conti tires and I don't like them either but not for the reason you stated, I never had a problem with them holding the line, what I HATED about those tires were the sidewalls were too fragile, I never ever cut any other side wall from any manufacturer for over 40 years of riding but every single Conti I have used I cut the sidewall, or abrasion it enough to throw the tire away, and Conti tires are not cheap. I also found the tread cut easier than other treads did, not sure about the wear out factor because I never had a Conti last long enough to simply wear out.

    Now I'm sure others haven't had my experiences with Conti, but even if my luck was bad luck it was enough to not ever buy Conti again. I tried 3 different periods of time thinking I waited long enough that Conti improved their design...NOPE! I also had miserable luck with Hutchinson tires, a set that I bought the tread after about 500 miles came unlaminated from the belts, like a recap tire peeling off! I contacted Hutchinson a dozen times and they never responded, so no more Hutchinson tires for me.

    I like Vittoria tires as well, their one of my favorites along with Specialized, Schwalbe and Panaracer. So when I need tires I look for sales on those brands and wait till the end of the season sales, but Specialized about every other year has a buy one and get one for 1/2 price sale in the Spring, so I have an extra set of those in my tire/tube drawer.

    I haven't embraced tubeless either, I don't want to invest in a special pump, nor want the hassle of such tight fitting tires. That's ok, the tire tube combo is true and tried system so I'll just stay with that.
     
  7. Mr. Beanz

    Mr. Beanz Well-Known Member

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    I find it strange that others dislike the Conti's so much. I have been using them since the GP2000 back in 1998 if I recall correctly. Heck, my light weight is 220 pounds and I have never had a sidewall fail me riding them over 22 years. Not sure what not tracking means but doing 40 mile descents on some timed events at 40 MPH carrying 230 down mountain roads, I've never had a problem. Also, I have always used 700 X 23's, never a problem. I also use them on my tandem with 2 riders' weight.

    Not to mention, I have worn out several GP tires with a high of 73,000 miles in one year. Average was 4,000-6,000 over several years till the last 2 years which was maybe 2,000 due to family issues. But never had a problem with Conti's.

    Also had another guy say the tires they sell online are defective and seconds. Hmm, I buy all my tires online since 2009 and never had a problem with those I bought from ProBikeKit and Ribblye Cycles of the UK.

    I am tempted to try 25's just to see if there is a difference with the big buzz over the last couple years.

    As far as tubeless, I have seen so many people with problems on the road. Some too tight, some big cuts won's hold air. And my own son in law, inflates his tires, has to ride it around as the pressure drops, then has to top it off. I have no idea what the heck, just his complaint the couple of times we rode together.

    With all the sealant protection I have heard of, I have seen too many riders with flats complaining the sealant and/or tubeless did not work as stated.

    I have no experience with tubeless but have no desire or plans to try them anytime soon , or ever if I don't have to like in the case they do away with the clincher types I use.

    Carbon rims, carbon brakes, no thanks. I've ridden with several almost knocking me off my bike with the high pitch squeal. OK, over exaggerating on that one but wow! ;) Of course every person I ask says they don't squeal. Hmm!
     
  8. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    Utter nonsense. There's a really good reason the the Conti GP4000S (original and II) has been one of the best selling tires on the market for quite a few years. They handle great, they're light, and they're actually quite durable.

    Again, more nonsense. There is a substantial difference in quality and consistency, though I agree that the exorbitant prices on some domestic wheels are bordering on insane. That's one reason I've stuck with aluminum. I can build a set of sub-1300 gram clinchers for under $250.

    That's because you're buying cheap crap wheels. Carbon fiber parts can be very precisely made, as is common in the aerospace industry, and some carbon fiber bike parts are extremely well-made. However, it takes high quality tooling, experienced workers and a commitment to quality design and construction. While there are certainly some Chinese products that fit that bill, the junk wheels you've been buying don't.

    Even spoke tension is critical to long wheel life. If you'd ever actually built wheels, you'd understand that.

    Again, nonsense. If you know how to use a tensiometer, you can get accurate and consistent readings on any kind of spoke.

    And you keep buying them. Duh!

    That would never happen with quality wheels, whether factory or custom built.


    I'm curious about how you're getting sidewall cuts on road tires? Are you riding them on dirt or gravel? How much pressure are you riding in them?

    FWIW, my experience with the Conti GP4000 series tires has been exactly the opposite. I've been riding them since 2011 and have never had a sidewall cut (even with a few miles on dirt and gravel), and I've even unknowingly ridden a couple of them down to the cords in spots. I only recall one substantial tread cut that reached the casing, but it didn't require replacing the tire.
    For a point of reference, my weight varies between 170 and175# and I run my tire pressures pretty low, 70-72 front/80-82 rear with 25mm tires. I don't get pinch flats and actually rarely gets flats at all, as I run sealant in the tubes. I have GP4000S IIs on two road bikes and recently switched my girlfriend's road bike to them after she had problems with a couple of other brands. Overall, I couldn't be happier with them. While they aren't the lightest, the most supple, the fastest or the most durable, they have a nice balance of all of those characteristics and are just a great all-round road tire.

    That said, I haven't heard much good about the GP5000 series (tubeless) tires. In fact, Conti recently redesigned them due to complaints about how difficult the were to install. Fortunately, the GP4000S II is still available.
     
    #8 BrianNystrom, Mar 23, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  9. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how I get those abrasions and cuts, I don't get them with any other tires I've use, and I'm not alone in this because I've read this same sort of discussion on other forums and a lot of people complain about the paper thin sidewalls that Conti employs. Not sure if in the last 2 or 3 years they've corrected that situation but I will never try them again because of my experiences, but also because they are in the upper price range of tires and I don't see the point of spending that kind of money when I've been perfectly fine riding with lessor expensive tires, they grip wet and dry just as well, perception wise they roll just as well, and they last longer than Conti's, so why spend an additional $20 per tire for no perceived gain?

    By the way my last pair of Contis were the GP4000s and they sucked! Just like the other Conti's I tried they failed due to sidewall issues. I got mine on sale from Wiggles for 40% off for a pair, and Wiggles is cheaper when not on sale then here in the US, so I got a reasonable deal, but they failed to impress. I still paid more for those tires than I vowed to ever pay for a tire, I never pay more than $30 for a tire, so it has to be on a big discount sale or I don't get them. I always have a pair in reserve anyways, so it's not like I need a tire right now situation thus I'll pay any price, I just wait till the sales come.

    I don't think Conti is making the GP4000s now, Wiggles does not have that tire listed for sale, but Amazon still has them which may be that Amazon is clearing the stock out for Conti?

    I've actually liked Conti MTB tires, they're not as expensive as their road versions and they hold up extremely well. The price thing I find interesting, it cost more money for a lot less rubber and casing material for a road tire then it does for a MTB tire that has more rubber and more casing material. I think that shows you that road cyclists are getting gouged more than others disciplines.
     
  10. Mr. Beanz

    Mr. Beanz Well-Known Member

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    What tire do you use for under $30? I am always looking for a good deal though another 5 or 6 bucks doesn't worry me. :cool:

    Though I haven't paid more than $35 for a Conti over the last 10 years maybe getting them online. Which is a great deal vs the $80 local shops want nowadays.

    I have also read plenty of bad sidewall reviews online and a couple from real life friends. Just happy I haven't experienced the issue, especially outweighing most my buds by 70 pounds. :D

    I used to use Seca Serfas tires that worked well back in 05(?). But then got a couple of bad apples over a period of a year. Just split down the center of the tread. So much for them, never tried again after 2 bad tires in 2 purchases about a year apart.

    Also IRC Fire/Redstorm (?). A local ride suggested them online in a forum. I bought a couple online at a good price. Terrible tires, first ride up a mountain road snaked on me. I believe they called it heat blisters. Ever try descending 3,000 ft with a tire shaped like a snake? Then the second one did the same on the first 40 mile flat ride. Got my money back but never again. Saving $10 on a tire is not worth busting my face.

    So if it is not one of these, let me in on the secret. Always looking for a good deal on road tires! :p
     
  11. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Mr Beanz, last couple of years I got Specialized Roubaix Pro tires for $60 a pair normally $80 a pair, not as big of sale as I usually get but the first time I tried these tires I fell in love with them so the next time they came on sale again I bought another pair. I paid $48 a pair for schwalbe marathon greenguard tire; I then got a pair of Vittoria Rubino Pro I paid around $52 for the pair (this was before all those new ones came out with a letter and a number after the Pro), and a set of Panaracer Pasela Tour Guard (for my 27" rim bike) for $48 a pair. I wait till the end of the road bike season and this stuff goes on sale and closeout prices deeper than normal in season sales, as well as road bike summer clothing which I will also get if I need something. If you look up the prices on those tires you will see how much they sell for when not on sale.

    Clothing is the same thing, I got a nice pair of MTB shorts that retailed for $79 for just $23 last fall. You just have to keep your eyes open.

    I actually like the Specialized tires more than the Vittoria tires, the Vitts were fine, I only got on flat on them but they got cut up, not badly cut up but the Specs have never got cut up, my first set has around 2,000 miles on them and still look newish, no flats no cuts; the other set is in reserve.

    I had a set of Serfas tires a long while back, can't recall the model, like Kontact? I can't remember, Anyway they were about $65 tire, I found them on sale for $19! I grabbed a pair, and when I got them they were very lightweight but the tread thickness was very thin and I thought oh crap these will be junk, to my surprise I never got a flat or a cut on those tires and they lasted about 3,000 miles which if you would seen how much thread thickness there was on those tires you would have thought I was joking! I would say they were about as thick as a racing tubular was back in the 70's.
     
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  12. Mr. Beanz

    Mr. Beanz Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I'll have to look at Schwalbe, heard good things about them. Lots of good reviews.

    I did try a Specialized tire back in 2010 or so. My bud swore by them. I bought one for about $70, flatted 2 times in 3 rides. Then on a descent down Mt Baldy, I braked hard which tore off a 2 inch piece of the tread. :eek: I figured those tires were too delicate for my weight so I avoid them. It was a S works model.

    The Armadillos, I had great luck with them but they are some heavy pushing tires. I only used them to train on mountain climbs before timed events. NO FLATS in the mountains with thorns and shale. :cool: Then swapped back to Conti's for the event. But if I ride those on my usual rides, I'd never keep up with Gina ha ha!

    Tried Vitorria, don't remember the model but I'll have to look at the prices now. Worked well for me but just never used them again. Worth a try.

    I also use Panaracer for my MTB. Good tires and worth the price. Haven't tried road tires yet.

    Thanks, always looking for new ideas.
     
  13. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    Schwalbe tires are generally nice, but avoid the tubeless version of the Schwalbe One, as there are a lot of complaints about them being extremely difficult to mount. It's another one that's being redesigned.
     
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  14. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    The schwalbe marathon greenguard is used on my touring bike, I bought these tires because the have the ability to run for over 6,500 miles LOADED! On top of that they are nearly flat proof, but if that's not good enough for you, despite their weight, which they are chunky, they had the lowest rolling resistance of any tire in its class 2 years ago when I bought them so they don't feel as heavy as they are when you're up to speed. I bought the Greenguard version because they are a bit cheaper then their to of the line Marathon Supreme and their Marathon Almotion; the new Almotion tire is now the lowest rolling resistance of any tire in its class. The Greenguard, Supreme, Plus and the Almotion tires are designated as touring tires and they all have the lowest rolling resistance of any other brand of tire.

    When I tour I DO NOT want a flat on the rear tire particularly because it's a hassle to fix a flat with fenders and panniers on so I rather not if I can help it, in fact on the rear I actually put a flat strip inside! I didn't do that with the front though. I am considering changing the front tire to a Marathon Supreme HS 469 or the Almotion, it weighs about 400 grams less than the Greenguard, won't last as Greenguard but it's on the front so I don't need it to last as long, the hope is that both the rear and the front would wear out at about the same time. Neither of those Supreme HS 469 or the Almotion are cheap tires, they retail for around $80 and of course would hope to find them on sale, but even on sale I might have to spend $65 or so which would be the most expensive tire I've bought in a long time, but when your touring you don't want some tire going poof on you, and I want to try to cut some weight, I can't have it both ways without spending money, that's almost a pound of weight coming off the bike, and it's rotational weight which is good when climbing mountain grades.

    The only goofing thing about rolling resistance is that tests are done at 30 mph, well unless I'm going down a pretty good grade I won't come close to reaching 30 mph, so if the average speed for anyone touring loaded is only 10 mph, I got think rolling resistance is not playing much of a factor.
     
  15. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    Just to add a bit of perspective, the Marathon Greenguards are double the weight of the Conti GP4000S II; it's an apples to oranges comparison. If you were using the latter for loaded touring, that would explain the durability problems you were having. They're lightweight tires that are more toward the racing end of the spectrum. OTOH, The Marathons are an excellent choice for touring, as that's what they're designed for.

    I'm still curious about how much you weigh and what pressures you run in your tires, as those are important to tire wear and durability.
     
    #15 BrianNystrom, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  16. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    No I was NOT using the Conti GP4000S tires for touring on! I have several bikes, the Conti's are used on a road bike and were 700x23c tires, those Marathon's are on a touring bike that uses a 700x38c tire.

    I weigh 175 with bike clothes on plus bike weight including water and seat bag; on the road bike when I use to use the 23's I would run 110 in the rear and 90 in the front, now that I've gone to 25's I only use 90 on the rear and 70 front on my commuter, but on my weekend bike I've done something weird I have a 23 on the front and a 25 on the rear which means I run 90 on the rear and 90 on the front. With the touring bike I run much lower psi at 60 on the rear and 40 on the front due to most of my gear I carry is on the rear and I'm estimating my total weight to be around 230 to 235.

    From the factor the touring bike came with 40c tires, but I just didn't see the need with the weight I carry and I will be riding 99% of the time on asphalt and rare occasion on gravel roads to be on heavier slightly fatter tire, so I went down a size, I tested the bike with a load on gravel and had no problems. I do carry a Panaracer Pasela TG tire as a spare on the touring bike, it's wire beaded but due to its more flexible sidewall I turn into a figure 8 and put it inside the straps on the outside of one of the panniers; I wanted a lighter weight spare that folded but all the folding ones I found were too light duty for touring on, except now that Schwalbe came out with the Almotion and the folding Supreme they're light but too expensive for just a spare tire as is the Conti Hardshell Duraskin, and the Greenguard is too stiff to make into a figure 8.
     
  17. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    Interesting. I've only used 25c Contis, so perhaps there's an issue with the 23s that I'm not aware of. As I mentioned, I run lower pressure, which also reduces the likelihood of cut tires.

    The weight of the 700x38cthe Marathon Greenguardss (750gr+) is actually more than some MTB tires I use, but as you say, they're for touring and durability is king.

    Are you running sealant in your tires? That's the single best flat-reduction measure I've found, particularly for off-road riding. On the road, I went from 2-3 flat/year to 0-1, and haven't had one in recent memory. It's probably been 2 or 3 seasons since the last one.

    As for off-road riding, I recently pulled a combined 14 thorns out of my girlfriend's tubeless fat bike tires, which were holding air fine until I pulled them. The sealant took care of the holes and they're holding air fine again. Prior to using sealant, I was repairing flats every second ride, on average.
     
  18. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Nah I don't use sealants in any of my bikes, the only thing I did extra with my touring tires is on my rear tire I put a flat liner in, but I didn't put one on the front; I did the same thing with my commuter bike, flat liner in the rear nothing in the front; but my weekend bike no flat liners. I also found out, by testing with a thumbtack, that any plastic liner made will allow me to push a thumbtack through it, but with the ultralight Kevlar liner the tack could not go through! I actually bent the tack in my first test, so I decided to use a small finishing nail, but it first through a thin piece of wood so I had a base to hold the nail with, then tried to push it through the liner, it didn't go through.

    The only problems with the Kevlar liner is that for one it's expensive which is why I only use it on the rear tire and not on the front; and for two you can't reuse the liner after the tire is worn out. But the pros are for one that the liners weigh less than sealants, and for two it has an adhesive backing to it that the plastic ones don't have, the plastic ones can leave you guessing whether or not it's centered perfectly over the tread after the tube is in and after the beads are in the rim. So overall I like the Panaracer FlatAway Kevlar liners the best.
     
  19. Mr. Beanz

    Mr. Beanz Well-Known Member

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    Again, been riding them at 120 psi for 22 years, 230-260 pound rider up to 7300 miles per year. The old tan sidewall tires (2000's) would get scuffed on the sidewalls but never had a failure. Then the black sidewalls (3000's ?), never had much of a scuffed sidewall.

    Everybody is different I guess, just happy I never had a sidewall failure.

    All GP models.

    Now the cheap $20 version (Race ?), total trash ime. Flat after flat!
     
  20. BrianNystrom

    BrianNystrom Active Member

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    While the Panaracer FlatAway Kevlar liners are an interesting product, it seems somewhat redundant to use a heavy tires with a built-in anti-puncture liner and the FlatAway liner. Still, if it works for you, that's great and I'm not going to try to convince you to change anything.

    For others here, I'll point out the advantages of sealants versus these - and other - tire liners.
    • Cost - You already mentioned this. The FlatAway liners are ~$20 each and can only be used in one tire. You can buy a quart of Stan's sealant for ~$25. That will last a long time and can be used in numerous tires and multiple bikes.
    • Versatility - The liners are meant for tires 30mm wide and larger. Sealant works in any size tire from 19mm tubulars to 5" fat bike tires. It also works in any type of tire, clincher (with tubes), tubeless or tubular (I've used it in all three types).
    • Weight - The liners weigh 38 grams. I never run more than an ounce (28 grams) of sealant in tires up to 40 mm and typically use 20 grams in 25mm road tires. Note that this is less than sealant manufacturers recommend, but it seals just fine (they're in the business of selling sealant, I'm not).
    • Performance - Liners stiffen the tire casing and adversely affect the ride. Sealant has no effect on the ride quality.
    • Convenience - You can find sealant at pretty much any place that sells bikes. Should you trash a tire while on a tour, you can easily find a replacement tire and sealant. Finding replacement liners would probably be more difficult.
    To be fair, the downsides of sealant are:
    • You need a syringe and a valve core wrench to install it (except in tubeless tires), but those are inexpensive one-time purchases. You don't need to buy anything as elaborate as the Stan's sealant syringe, you can get a 10cc or larger syringe at a pharmacy or hardware store (glue syringe), cheap. Either that, or buy one of the 2-ounce bottles and refill it as you use it.
    • If you're using it in tubes, you need to make sure that they have removable cores. There's a workaround for non-removable cores, but it's more complexity than most rider will want to get into.
    • You need to add sealant periodically. How often depends on your riding conditions and I find I need to add it 2-3 times a year. It's not difficult, but it's an extra maintenance item.
    • You can certainly make a mess with sealant, but I've never found it to be a significant problem. It's water soluble and washes off easily when it's wet. If allowed to dry, it peels off surfaces easily, but it can be difficult to remove from clothing.
     
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