T
Tim McNamara
Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> > alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
>>
>> Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
>> frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
>> human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the
>> defendnt and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
>>
>> For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
>> Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
>> Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
>> the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
>> braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or
>> substitute your favorite frame builders.
>
> there's we we disagree. i think goodrich's human element differs
> from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is different from
> bert's.
Exactly my point. Lawyering involves many people in each outcome,
custom frame building involves (usually) only one. Therefore
comparing the human touch in lawyering with the human touch in frame
building really isn't possible.
> i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...), "a
> thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood". it's
> not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> others do
Yup. The question, as yet unaswered and perhaps unanswerable is
exactly what the differences are that make the differences in the
ride. Is it the geometry- BB drop, front and rear centers, steering
geometry, position, and other "macroscopic" differences? I'd have no
argument with that; my hunch is that if I went to each of the builders
I mentioned and got measured for a bike for riding brevets, I'd
imagine every one would build a bike I'd be very happy with- and every
one would build a bike that is macroscopically different from the
others.
Or is it microscopic differences, ones that can't be identified with a
tape measure? The sequence of the joints, the exactitude of the
miters, the filing and thinning of the lugs, which side of the joint
is heated first, whether brass or silver is used, etc. Are these the
things that account for the difference in ride? I personally can't
see how.
My own answer to the questions- as best I can- is going to be to build
my own frame. We'll see if it turns out well or if it rides like a
wheelbarrow harnessed to a dyspeptic donkey. In any event, Richard,
I appreciate your perspective on the issue and thanks for sharing it.
> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> > alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
>>
>> Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
>> frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
>> human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the
>> defendnt and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
>>
>> For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
>> Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
>> Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
>> the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
>> braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or
>> substitute your favorite frame builders.
>
> there's we we disagree. i think goodrich's human element differs
> from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is different from
> bert's.
Exactly my point. Lawyering involves many people in each outcome,
custom frame building involves (usually) only one. Therefore
comparing the human touch in lawyering with the human touch in frame
building really isn't possible.
> i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...), "a
> thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood". it's
> not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> others do
Yup. The question, as yet unaswered and perhaps unanswerable is
exactly what the differences are that make the differences in the
ride. Is it the geometry- BB drop, front and rear centers, steering
geometry, position, and other "macroscopic" differences? I'd have no
argument with that; my hunch is that if I went to each of the builders
I mentioned and got measured for a bike for riding brevets, I'd
imagine every one would build a bike I'd be very happy with- and every
one would build a bike that is macroscopically different from the
others.
Or is it microscopic differences, ones that can't be identified with a
tape measure? The sequence of the joints, the exactitude of the
miters, the filing and thinning of the lugs, which side of the joint
is heated first, whether brass or silver is used, etc. Are these the
things that account for the difference in ride? I personally can't
see how.
My own answer to the questions- as best I can- is going to be to build
my own frame. We'll see if it turns out well or if it rides like a
wheelbarrow harnessed to a dyspeptic donkey. In any event, Richard,
I appreciate your perspective on the issue and thanks for sharing it.
