Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?



M

Mark

Guest
Hi Joe, Also, as another option to a nice Steel Lugged Frame, would
be a slightly older NOS Colnago Classic, Crystal, or Master Light
Frame.

I know you said "Best American Frames" But some of these older Colnago
Frames were quite nice in my opinion, with Chrome Headtube Lugs, Fork,
and Chrome Rear Chainstays. Prices for these can range about
$600-$750, and I think they'd make a wonderful bike. Many may argue
here about the quality of these bike frames, but I myself certainly
wouldn't be ashamed to have one. Maybe some others here will say they
were all junk? I don't know?

Many of the paint finishes on these Colnago frames, could be tad
fragile, but were none the less very beautiful. Just make sure that
rear dropout spacing will be compatible with what you wish to use.
Some are 126mm, instead of 130mm.

I currently have a mint Midnight Blue NOS Colnago Frame on "hold" with
a seller, with the Chrome Headtube lugs, forks, and Chainstays.

If I had my choice of "Pretty" frames, and cost was no object for a
USA steel Frame, it would maybe be a 2200 HCL Waterford, with the hand
carved lugs. Mark

[email protected] (Joe) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--
 
E

Eurastus

Guest
You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt. Even if you ask
fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does immaculate work. Well
thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His frames
are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better than this
in a lugged steel frame.

However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's right, more then 2
years between order and delivery!!

Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650 and they go up to a
little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-ons possible (well,
when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the last
few hundred bucks).

However, you will then own the very best on the planet.

As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when it came
down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went with a Ritchey Road
Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not made in
the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with custom
paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a little longer than
normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.

Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the Sachs) and
actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are nice, but not Sachs/Bell
quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.

Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look hard to see
another bike like yours. Neither of these are like the current Trek or LeMond
carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the road sporting one.

However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???

[email protected] (Joe) wrote:
>I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
>(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
>regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
>expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
>to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
>great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
>Thanks in advance--
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt. Even if you ask
> fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does immaculate work. Well
> thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His

frames
> are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better than

this
> in a lugged steel frame.
>
> However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's right, more then 2
> years between order and delivery!!
>
> Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650 and they go up

to a
> little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-ons possible

(well,
> when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the

last
> few hundred bucks).
>
> However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
>
> As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when it

came
> down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went with a Ritchey

Road
> Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not made

in
> the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with

custom
> paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a little longer

than
> normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
> middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
>
> Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the Sachs) and
> actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are nice, but not

Sachs/Bell
> quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
>
> Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look hard to see
> another bike like yours. Neither of these are like the current Trek or

LeMond
> carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the road sporting

one.
>
> However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
> years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
>
> [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> >I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> >(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> >regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> >expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> >to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> >great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
> >
> >Thanks in advance--


Another builder of note is Dave Kirk. http://www.kirkframeworks.com/ Worked
for Serotta as their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11 Team
and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own shingle last year in
Bozeman Montana. Makes very good stuff, I've got one.
 
B

bfd

Guest
"Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]
>
> "Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt. Even if you

ask
> > fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does immaculate work.

Well
> > thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His

> frames
> > are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better

than
> this
> > in a lugged steel frame.
> >
> > However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's right, more then

2
> > years between order and delivery!!
> >
> > Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650 and they go

up
> to a
> > little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-ons possible

> (well,
> > when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the

> last
> > few hundred bucks).
> >
> > However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
> >
> > As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when it

> came
> > down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went with a

Ritchey
> Road
> > Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not

made
> in
> > the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with

> custom
> > paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a little longer

> than
> > normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in

the
> > middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
> >
> > Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the Sachs)

and
> > actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are nice, but not

> Sachs/Bell
> > quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
> >
> > Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look hard to see
> > another bike like yours. Neither of these are like the current Trek or

> LeMond
> > carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the road sporting

> one.
> >
> > However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
> > years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
> >
> > [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> > >I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> > >(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> > >regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> > >expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> > >to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> > >great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance--

>
> Another builder of note is Dave Kirk. http://www.kirkframeworks.com/

Worked
> for Serotta as their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11 Team
> and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own shingle last year in
> Bozeman Montana. Makes very good stuff, I've got one.
>

Its interesting, but when you guys talk about "best frame builder", don't
forget Albert Eisentraut, aka the *Godfather of American Framebuilding* -
www.eisentraut.com
 
S

Steven L. Sheffield

Guest
On 06/11/2004 04:34 PM, in article
[email protected], "Joe"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?




For lugs and production, Waterford is pretty much it ... You don't have to
get all the fancy stuff, you know ...

Of course, I like Richard Sachs.

http://www.richardsachs.com/


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
S

Steven L. Sheffield

Guest
On 06/11/2004 06:50 PM, in article [email protected],
"Alan" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Check this link out:
>
> http://www.kogswell.com/p.html
>
> A lugged frame for $699.



Not American-made.

Not 853.

But a great deal, if you want something with room for fenders, and a more
upright position, a la Rivendell.



> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
>> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
>> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
>> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
>> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
>> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>>
>> Thanks in advance--

>
>


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
B

Bill K.

Guest
It would be best if you could tell us what you plan to use it for and
about how much you weigh and what size frame you need. If you're 5'6"
and weigh 140 pounds and plan to race, you would need a completely
different bike with different tubes than a 6'4" 250 pound tourist The
lightweight racer could get by with just about any tubeset including
the old 531. If you put the 250 pound rider on a 62 cm frame made with
the same tubes..........I don't even want to think about it.
 
S

Steven L. Sheffield

Guest
On 06/11/2004 09:27 PM, in article [email protected], "Dave
Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:


> 853 isn't used for lugged frames.




If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was Waterford using on all
those 853-stickered 2200s?


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
S

Steven L. Sheffield

Guest
On 06/13/2004 06:03 PM, in article [email protected],
"Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote:

> However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
> years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???




I'm hoping to get my second in time for my 40th birthday ... (2 years).


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BCF28088.35984%[email protected]
> On 06/11/2004 09:27 PM, in article [email protected],

"Dave
> Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> > 853 isn't used for lugged frames.

>
>
>
> If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was Waterford using on all
> those 853-stickered 2200s?
>

Of course you're correct. I should have said 853 was developed as an
air-hardning steel to be used primarily for TIG'd and brazed frames. To see
it used in lugged bikes is somewhat unusual.
 
J

Joe

Guest
"Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt. Even if you ask
> > fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does immaculate work. Well
> > thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His

> frames
> > are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better than

> this
> > in a lugged steel frame.
> >
> > However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's right, more then 2
> > years between order and delivery!!
> >
> > Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650 and they go up

> to a
> > little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-ons possible

> (well,
> > when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the

> last
> > few hundred bucks).
> >
> > However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
> >
> > As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when it

> came
> > down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went with a Ritchey

> Road
> > Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not made

> in
> > the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with

> custom
> > paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a little longer

> than
> > normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
> > middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
> >
> > Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the Sachs) and
> > actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are nice, but not

> Sachs/Bell
> > quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
> >
> > Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look hard to see
> > another bike like yours. Neither of these are like the current Trek or

> LeMond
> > carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the road sporting

> one.
> >
> > However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
> > years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
> >
> > [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> > >I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> > >(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> > >regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> > >expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> > >to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> > >great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance--

>
> Another builder of note is Dave Kirk. http://www.kirkframeworks.com/ Worked
> for Serotta as their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11 Team
> and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own shingle last year in
> Bozeman Montana. Makes very good stuff, I've got one.



WOW, I checked out his website and he builds REALLY beautiful bikes.
Looks a lot like Sachs' work. However, I think he is more upscale
than what I'm looking for. I'm basically just looking for a nice,
light, production steel frame with lugs--I don't need all the
customization that these builders offer, so I'm not willing to pay
extra for it.

But I am going to keep Kirk's name in mind if I really want to treat
myself.

Joe
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--


Here's a small builder that enjoys a very good reputation locally:
http://www.hairygary.com/ Might be worh looking at considering his price.
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--

Here's another site for custom-built frames:
http://www.bikemojo.com/search/bikes_and_accessories/custom/index.shtml
 
D

Dave Stallard

Guest
Joe wrote:

> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?


Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and has some
ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-mooney.com/

Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.

Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
lugs are getting harder to find.

Dave
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Dave Stallard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and has some
> ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-mooney.com/
>
> Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.
>
> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.
>
> Dave


Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames and their being
'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the "majors" in bicycle
building but certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way are
growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now than in
the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others are developing and
casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.

It's been my experience with riders I know, that the appreciation of lugged
bikes is growing and many owners are specifying lugged when getting a custom
built.
 
D

Dave Stallard

Guest
Dave Thompson wrote:

> Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames and their being
> 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the "majors" in bicycle
> building but certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way are
> growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now than in
> the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others are developing and
> casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.


I'm only going by something I read once somewhere (maybe on the Mooney
site) about lugs becoming harder to find. But I do think it's true that
(as you say above) lugged frames are increasingly the province of the
smaller, more craftman-like builders. And frames which come out of
those shops are unlikely to be inexpensive, which was what the original
poster seemed to be looking for. (That's not to say they're not worth
every penny, note.) Perhaps as lugged frames coming out of smaller
builders become more popular, the majors will see it as a "trend" and
take them up again. Who nows?

Dave
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
lugs are not in short supply. the only thing that has changed
is that cheap, pricepoint lugs no longer exist because most
frames are tigged or nonferrous - the industrial made ones,
that is. my lugs (and a newer set to be available after july
1st), fork crowns, and frame dropouts are explained here
with some text that was outed about 22 months ago:
http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslugs.html

these are now used by many american and some italian builders.
e-RICHIE
[email protected]
www.richardsachs.com




"Dave Stallard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Dave Thompson wrote:
>
> > Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames and their

being
> > 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the "majors" in

bicycle
> > building but certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way

are
> > growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now than

in
> > the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others are developing

and
> > casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.

>
> I'm only going by something I read once somewhere (maybe on the Mooney
> site) about lugs becoming harder to find. But I do think it's true that
> (as you say above) lugged frames are increasingly the province of the
> smaller, more craftman-like builders. And frames which come out of
> those shops are unlikely to be inexpensive, which was what the original
> poster seemed to be looking for. (That's not to say they're not worth
> every penny, note.) Perhaps as lugged frames coming out of smaller
> builders become more popular, the majors will see it as a "trend" and
> take them up again. Who nows?
>
> Dave
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
Eurastus <[email protected]> writes:

> You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.


Wonderful frames. But the best without a doubt? Well, that's not so
clear. Chris Kvale, Richard Moon, Bilenky, etc are all great frames
and rival Sachs.

> As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when
> it came down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went
> with a Ritchey Road Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom
> made, not lugged, and not made in the US (though finished and
> painted here). It set me back $929 with custom paint and took 2
> months from order to delivery. That's a little longer than normal
> for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
> middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
>
> Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the
> Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are
> nice, but not Sachs/Bell quality. I'm satisfied for the money I
> spent.


I have a Ritchey Road Classic (all fillet brazed) which used the same
tubes and geometry at the time it was built (Tange Prestige drawn to
TR's specs). I bought it used from the guy TR built it for. I'll
second Erastus' comments: a superb handling frame, almost telepathic,
very sure around twisty turns, over bumpy surfaces and yet stable. A
nice balance of handling properties. IMHO you couldn't go wrong with
a TR frame.