Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?



J

Jay Beattie

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> snipped:
> " I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to

compare different
> frames in this way and probably never will..."
>
>
> no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never

will, and
> since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much

harder to
> grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into play.

in all
> fairness, i said earlier that i can't quanify it either (this

<is> rbtech,
> after
> all...), but i believe it is part of the equation.
> and, sorry - i know i shouldn't ask questions i don't know the

answer to -
> but
> i know we have a lawyer here - why is it that there are good

ones and not
> so good ones when the law is the law? i'm not trying to shift

gears here,
> but
> only to suggest that law - much like some frame building

assembly
> processes -
> is open to interpretation yet verdicts often depend on the

skill of the
> lawyer.
> apologies in advance if that analogy is just so bad!!!


Do not compare metal fab to lawyering. That is too scary. The
variability of result you get in lawyering has no place in metal
fab -- or gardening, or even bartending. -- Jay Beattie.
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
e-RICHIE





"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]

but
> > i know we have a lawyer here - why is it that there are good

> ones and not
> > so good ones when the law is the law? i'm not trying to shift

> gears here,
> > but
> > only to suggest that law - much like some frame building

> assembly
> > processes -
> > is open to interpretation yet verdicts often depend on the

> skill of the
> > lawyer.
> > apologies in advance if that analogy is just so bad!!!

>
> Do not compare metal fab to lawyering. That is too scary. The
> variability of result you get in lawyering has no place in metal
> fab -- or gardening, or even bartending. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
 
J

Jay Beattie

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
> e-RICHIE


Twelve human elements to be exact. I just got a verdict on
Monday in a month long products trial. Let me tell you Richard,
if you made frames like juries made verdicts . . . -- Jay
Beattie.
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Jay Beattie wrote:

> ...
>>
>>How does the sequence of assembly or heating cycles affect ride

>
> quality?
>
>>How does the brazing of a joint affect handling?

>
>
> I struggled with this one, too. Perhaps air hardening or
> annealing would have an effect, but it probably would be
> imperceivable. I would also assume that all of the builders know
> how to not cook a frame. -- Jay Beattie.


The modulus of elasticity of various steels changes very little with
heat treatment, so the effect of heat treatment (deliberate or
incidental) history would have no significant effect on ride quality. Of
course, the heat treatment history will have a major impact on
durability/fatigue life of the joint.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
 
R

Richard Chan

Guest
Ted Bennett <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> ... Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control the
> many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That is not
> really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73 degree
> angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made or it is
> not. ...>


You are a man of practical wisdom, I am in your camp.

I have owned many fine steel frames, almost 100% Italian except an
Oria tubed Ken Legge (retired) custom and Mr. Legge practiced the
Italian art. My favorite is an used $89 Viner, Columbus SL with
handcut (rough edges) lugs and Gios type flat crown. It combined the
best of a Colnago Super and a Gios Torino Super Record. The brazing
(job) is so good that it brings tears to my eyes every time I look at
it. The paint has wrinkles, the decals flaked, but I love this frame
unconditionally. It is the practical perfection that I treasure.
 
F

frank121

Guest
"Richard Chan" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> You are a man of practical wisdom, I am in your camp.
>
> I have owned many fine steel frames, almost 100% Italian except an
> Oria tubed Ken Legge (retired) custom and Mr. Legge practiced the
> Italian art. My favorite is an used $89 Viner, Columbus SL with
> handcut (rough edges) lugs and Gios type flat crown. It combined the
> best of a Colnago Super and a Gios Torino Super Record. The brazing
> (job) is so good that it brings tears to my eyes every time I look at
> it. The paint has wrinkles, the decals flaked, but I love this frame
> unconditionally. It is the practical perfection that I treasure.


I really can hear the feeling you have for your Viner! I think I had
mentioned to you having owned a Tommasini SLX Super Prestige a few years ago
and selling it and then wishing I had never done so. I was fortunate enough
a few months ago to come across another Tommasini SLX Super Prestige f/f
with less than 200 miles on it and snatched it up. I built it up and love
the ride and workmanship of it and have no plans to let this one get away
from me.

Frank
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Ted-<< Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods. >><BR><BR>


Ye gods indeed, Be content on your mass produced, no heart present, no 'magic'
feel present frameset.

An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art' riding
frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to produce one of
the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence today. If ya think
that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with your cookie cutter
frameset.

I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel' better.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
T

Todd Kuzma

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art' riding
> frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to produce one of
> the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence today. If ya think
> that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with your cookie cutter
> frameset.
>
> I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel' better.


Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
those generic, cookie cutter bikes. Let them ride harsh
aero-wheels and slick tires that hydroplane in the rain.

Anyone can hammer the nail that hangs the picture, but a
true "artiste" hammers the nail in a special way based on
years of experience and knowledge. A picture hung by such a
person certainly "looks" different, and pity the poor fools
who cannot see the difference.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
 
T

Tom Nakashima

Guest
"Todd Kuzma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> > An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art'

riding
> > frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to produce

one of
> > the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence today. If ya

think
> > that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with your cookie

cutter
> > frameset.
> >
> > I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel'

better.
>
> Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
> magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
> ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
> those generic, cookie cutter bikes. Let them ride harsh
> aero-wheels and slick tires that hydroplane in the rain.
>
> Anyone can hammer the nail that hangs the picture, but a
> true "artiste" hammers the nail in a special way based on
> years of experience and knowledge. A picture hung by such a
> person certainly "looks" different, and pity the poor fools
> who cannot see the difference.
>
> Todd Kuzma
> Heron Bicycles
> Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
> LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
> http://www.heronbicycles.com
> http://www.tullios.com


Bikes are made to be ridden! I feel the best part about a bike is not how
they look, but how they feel on the road, whether they be a cookie-cutter
frame or an expensive handmade custom, it's the choice of the rider.
One thing I won't do, is belittle a fellow cyclist's bike, at least they're
out there riding.
-tom
 
M

Matt O'Toole

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Ted-<< Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder
> of very
>> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
>> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods. >><BR><BR>


> Ye gods indeed, Be content on your mass produced, no heart present,
> no 'magic' feel present frameset.
>
> An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art'
> riding frameset.


The engineers at Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus, etc., have already done that
work -- designing the tubes, and specifying the joining techniques
(welded/lugged/brazed). The builder follows that recipe, with a personal touch,
which is mostly aesthetic.

> This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to
> produce one of the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in
> existence today.


Mr. Sachs' frames are beautiful. State of the art of the art, so to speak.

> If ya think that the 'heart' of the builder means
> nada, be happy with your cookie cutter frameset.
>
> I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel'
> better.


Me too, but I don't think it has anything to do with the builder's "touch" --
it's a matter of geometry, stiffness, and acoustics, which are all design
issues. The builder is responsible for these, but it comes from his head, not
his hands or his torch.

Matt O.
 
T

Todd Kuzma

Guest
Tom Nakashima wrote:

> Bikes are made to be ridden! I feel the best part about a bike is not how
> they look, but how they feel on the road, whether they be a cookie-cutter
> frame or an expensive handmade custom, it's the choice of the rider.
> One thing I won't do, is belittle a fellow cyclist's bike, at least they're
> out there riding.


I agree! However, I was not the one making the claim that
certain builders can craft magical properties into their
frames. I think that Richard Sachs frames are way cool and
definitely worth the money. Magic, however, they are not.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
 
J

Jay Beattie

Guest
"Todd Kuzma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> > An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work

or art' riding
> > frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience

to produce one of
> > the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence

today. If ya think
> > that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with

your cookie cutter
> > frameset.
> >
> > I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just

'feel' better.
>
> Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
> magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
> ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
> those generic, cookie cutter bikes. Let them ride harsh
> aero-wheels and slick tires that hydroplane in the rain.
>
> Anyone can hammer the nail that hangs the picture, but a
> true "artiste" hammers the nail in a special way based on
> years of experience and knowledge. A picture hung by such a
> person certainly "looks" different, and pity the poor fools
> who cannot see the difference.


Gee, Todd, these subjective impressions are not impossible to
quantify and are subject to the well known theory of relative
cachet which is expressed as M= $(PD), with M being Mojo, PD
being Pixie Dust and $ being money. Mojo is, of course,
regulated by the CPSC and the amount of mojo for a given product
may not exceed the statutory maximum. YMMV (your mojo may
vary). -- Jay Beattie.
 
T

Tom Nakashima

Guest
"Todd Kuzma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> > Bikes are made to be ridden! I feel the best part about a bike is not

how
> > they look, but how they feel on the road, whether they be a

cookie-cutter
> > frame or an expensive handmade custom, it's the choice of the rider.
> > One thing I won't do, is belittle a fellow cyclist's bike, at least

they're
> > out there riding.

>
> I agree! However, I was not the one making the claim that
> certain builders can craft magical properties into their
> frames. I think that Richard Sachs frames are way cool and
> definitely worth the money. Magic, however, they are not.
>
> Todd Kuzma
> Heron Bicycles
> Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
> LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
> http://www.heronbicycles.com
> http://www.tullios.com
>

Tod, I think when a person says a frame is magic, it probably means the
bike rides very well, just a fragment of speech.
The 27 year old Rodriguez I ride, I would like to think it's magic because
I've never rode a bike that feels as good on the road. It's bland, been
painted twice, one color with no decals, but don't really care about the
looks.

About these Cycling Icons who have been in the business for the long haul, I
do have to respect. Sometimes we have mental pictures of what we think they
should be.
When I met Joe Bell, the famous bike painter, I asked him; "you must be
making a fortune here as one of the best frame painters in the world?" He
laughed and told me, oh no, lots of people think I make a lot of money, but
I'm just making an honest living.
When I met Jobst Brandt, author of the Bicycle Wheel, I pictured this person
riding the most expensive clean shined bike, with the latest bike
components. I was surprised when riding next to him on his old yellow steel
frame bike that looked like it's been through a war, friction shifters and
cables sprouting out the top of the brake hoods.
I once raced an old guy to the top of a local mountain pass, as he was
cussing me everytime we changed leads (all in good fun), I was thinking at
the time, Who is this old fart? only to find out later it was Gary Fisher.
Tom Ritchey looked more like a rock musician than a frame builder when I met
him. Always thought he was a wild man, but he's actually soft spoken.
Sometimes it's about respect.
-tom
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:

> snipped: " I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to
> compare different frames in this way and probably never will..."
>
> no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never will,
> and since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much
> harder to grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into
> play.


Well, I am learning to braze and to build frames thanks to the
patience of a friend who is a frame builder, so I hope to have at
least some understanding of this aspect someday. Although since I
don't plan to quit my day job, I doubt I'll build enough frames to
become as proficient as someone like yourself.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:

> alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!


Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the defendnt
and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.

For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or substitute
your favorite frame builders.
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
there's we we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
different from bert's.
i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
"a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
others do.
e-RICHIE





"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!

>
> Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
> frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
> human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the defendnt
> and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
>
> For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
> Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
> Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
> the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
> braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or substitute
> your favorite frame builders.
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
i hope you'll note your experiences online for others
to read. i don't think i began to fully understand the
complete nature of these tasks until nearly 20 years
into the gig. understanding geometry. fitting people.
developing construction methods and sequences that
yield desired results. refining metalworking skills.
these tasks are rather simple in and of themselves,
but combining these, and other important traits too,
to build frames borders on alchemy and i don't think
it's that evident until you're on the "other side" of the
learning curve.
you're on the frame forum if i'm not mistaken - i hope
you'll avail youself of the resources there when you
start your building.
e-RICHIE


"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > snipped: " I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to
> > compare different frames in this way and probably never will..."
> >
> > no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never will,
> > and since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much
> > harder to grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into
> > play.

>
> Well, I am learning to braze and to build frames thanks to the
> patience of a friend who is a frame builder, so I hope to have at
> least some understanding of this aspect someday. Although since I
> don't plan to quit my day job, I doubt I'll build enough frames to
> become as proficient as someone like yourself.
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
EDIT

there's where we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
different from bert's.
i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
"a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
others do.
e-RICHIE





>
>
>
>
> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!

> >
> > Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
> > frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
> > human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the defendnt
> > and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
> >
> > For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
> > Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
> > Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
> > the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
> > braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or substitute
> > your favorite frame builders.

>
>
 
J

James Scott

Guest
Richard Sachs wrote:

> there's where we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
> differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
> different from bert's.
> i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
> "a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
> it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> others do.


I don't think anyone involved in this discussion will dispute that the
craftsman's skills and experience are critical to the design of the
frame - that is, those "thousand decisions" you wrote of. I think what
some here are questioning is the impact of the assembly/fabrication
skills and process relative to the design skills and process as regards
perceived ride quality. Personally, I think ride quality is more in the
design than the execution. If a builder executes the same design in the
same materials twice, using the same fabrication process, I expect both
finished pieces to have very similar qualities. Give identical inputs to
another builder, and the result will of course be different...but again,
I would expect two examples from that builder to be alike in those
characteristics that we call "ride quality."

This isn't to say that highly refined and experienced assembly technique
aren't valuable, but I think this impacts aesthetics and durability far
more than ride quality. And certainly, anyone who wants a custom frame
wants the entire package.

JLS

--
James "No time for nicknames" Scott
www.jls.cx
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
snipped:
"If a builder executes the same design in the same materials twice,
using the same fabrication process, I expect both finished pieces to
have very similar qualities. Give identical inputs to another builder,
and the result will of course be different...but again, I would expect
two examples from that builder to be alike in those characteristics
that we call "ride quality."


i think i said as much and it appears that we're in accord here.
e-RICHIE










"James Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Richard Sachs wrote:
>
> > there's where we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
> > differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
> > different from bert's.
> > i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
> > "a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
> > it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> > person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> > others do.

>
> I don't think anyone involved in this discussion will dispute that the
> craftsman's skills and experience are critical to the design of the
> frame - that is, those "thousand decisions" you wrote of. I think what
> some here are questioning is the impact of the assembly/fabrication
> skills and process relative to the design skills and process as regards
> perceived ride quality. Personally, I think ride quality is more in the
> design than the execution. If a builder executes the same design in the
> same materials twice, using the same fabrication process, I expect both
> finished pieces to have very similar qualities. Give identical inputs to
> another builder, and the result will of course be different...but again,
> I would expect two examples from that builder to be alike in those
> characteristics that we call "ride quality."
>
> This isn't to say that highly refined and experienced assembly technique
> aren't valuable, but I think this impacts aesthetics and durability far
> more than ride quality. And certainly, anyone who wants a custom frame
> wants the entire package.
>
> JLS
>
> --
> James "No time for nicknames" Scott
> www.jls.cx